The 'Inteligant Design' website

[Johnson16]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Ahhh.... that's where the whole "how to be a mass murderer and get into heaven" thing works....

Isn't there some statistic that points out how many murderers and whatever find god in prison (please resist that obvious one...)?

Not sure on that one. If your are sincere in your heart to make Jesus Christ Lord and Savoir of your life then you will go to heaven. Doesn't matter what you have done or where you are in your life. In the Bible Jesus spent the majority of his ministry with drunks, prosittues, tax collectors (i.e the bad guys) because he knew they were the ones that needed him most. He loves everyone the same, no matter what your situation.

As for a god life with no religion........First of all, I hate to call Christianity a religion. I like to refer to it as a Relationsip. Religion always seem to involve legalism and what not which I think can lots of time take away from the Relationship aspect, which is the most important part in my eyes.........Also, I am sure there are lots of people out there that have lead a "less" sinful life then I that are not saved. I am not perfect nor will ever prefess to be. I still sin daily. Thats part of being human. However, thankls to God's grace I can be forgiven. As a Christian I also think you tend to feel conviction a whole lot more. Helps keep you in line I suppose.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by Johnson16

Not sure on that one. If your are sincere in your heart to make Jesus Christ Lord and Savoir of your life then you will go to heaven.

So the answer as to whether a saint by Christian standards, who isn't a Christian, is that he/she won't go to your Heaven?

Originally Posted by Johnson16

As for a god life with no religion........First of all, I hate to call Christianity a religion. I like to refer to it as a Relationsip. Religion always seem to involve legalism and what not which I think can lots of time take away from the Relationship aspect

without meaning any disrespect, I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
The only comment I have here is that it doesn't matter what or how you prefer to refer to Christianity, it is, especially in your country a religion that is tied to politics. That is not to mention that the religion itself is ultimately based on a set of rules that it defines so yes, it involves laws.

Your mention of relationship confuses me. A relationship is the interaction between two beings. What exactly do you get from God that makes it a relationship? In more modern terms, it is in my mind, akin to unrequited love which as we all know, isn't a relationship because it is 100% one sided.

Of course, you could be talking philosophically but then that again has no bearing on Christianity as a whole because that would be personal to you and hence not apply to all Christianity.

Incidentally, what Church are you two?

[-Davo]

I think he means the relationship between God and ones self. You then have to assume God to be a real for a Relationship to make sense, so the burden of prove lies of the believer to prove God exists.

[J-Ri]

Here's my viewpoint on mass-murderers going to heaven. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life"

If one truly believes in Jesus, then that person will lead a good life. That doesn't mean only that you believe He exists, you must try to follow His teachings. If you fail, it doesn't matter, but you do have to try. Humans are weak, and we give into temptation, what is important is that we do our best to do what Jesus would want us to do.

It is a relationship. Think of it this way: God is always with you, whether you want him there or not. Now think of a person you know that you don't especially like that you never gave a chance by getting to know him, lets say you work with this person. You go through your day and ignore this person the best you can, though he is always with you. Then one day you go into work and find out that he quit. You're estatic! As the day goes on, you find yourself working harder and harder, yet are falling further and further behind. Although you didn't want this person there, you realize how much he did, and start to wish he was back. You might even start to miss him once he is gone. When he was with you, you took everything for granted, you certainly didn't think you had a relationship with this person. Did you? Absolutely. A relationship with God is similar (although it did sound better in my head, but it is difficult to explain). If you don't realize what he is doing, you might ask things like "what relationship". An example, which I'm sure you'll say is a coincidence, was one day when I was taking groceries home. I took as many bags as I could carry in one hand to the front door and opened it and went inside. I went back outside to get the rest of the bags, which was the most I could possibly carry. I didn't think I could get all of them, but I did manage to, carrying a gallon of milk by each pinky finger and about 10 bags around the rest of my fingers. This day was the calmest day I remember, I'm outside all day, and not once did I feel even a slight breeze. When I get to the door, I think "Oh, s***, I should have proped the door open!" My storm door closes all but the last inch by a spring, but doesn't latch unless you push or pull it shut yourself. As I took a step back to set the groceries down so I could open the door, a very strong gust of wind caught the door and threw it open, once I was inside, it stopped and the door shut behind me. You probably see that as a coincidence, but what about when you went into work in the morning and there was a pot of coffee made already? Your co-worker made the coffee, but when you go into work, you don't think of that. All you think of is "Hey!, coffee!".

Originally Posted by -Davo

I think he means the relationship between God and ones self. You then have to assume God to be a real for a Relationship to make sense, so the burden of prove lies of the believer to prove God exists.

Well, alright!, we finally got you to capitalize His name! But, there is no "burden of proof", that's absolutely rediculous. Faith and proof are two entirely seperate things. The reason God doesn't give signs hat He exists is because we need to have faith in Him. That makes one thing very obvious now. You have no understanding of what you are rejecting. What you think we need to do is the exact opposite of what you need to do. But, if you want proof just wait, you'll have it one day; and that makes me very sad.

When I responded to you post about your brother stabbing you (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=911077, for everyone else), I was hoping you had perhaps given some though to accepting God into your life. Clearly you havn't, but since this is a more appropriate thread, here goes!:
You said you thought that you were going to die, and that you are afraid of death. When an injury is inflicted, the pain is not as bad as it gets later. I've had some very deep cuts, one of which hit an artery. There's tons of blood and it really hurts, but while your body is pumping out the endorphins, it's not really all that bad. In my case, I was not even going to go to the hospital, but after I started to feel weak, I figured I should. The real pain started at the hospital (the sick-to-your-stomache, want to collapse, fuzzy fision, someone hold the room still, damn is it cold in here kind). I'm assuming it would be the same in your case. Now, once you're at the hospital, you know you're not going to die from an arm/shoulder injury. It seems, then, that any thoughts you had would have been rational, regardless of when it was. Why are you afraid to die? It seems only reasonable that you could be afriad of the pain, but why would you say you're afriad to die? Death and pain are clearly different, and I know you can distinguish between them. If God does not exist, then why would you be afraid of nothing? If when we die, we only stop having thoughts, why be afriad of it? Absolutely nothing would have been infinately greater than the pain I felt when the alternator I was holding with my hand to enlarge the pivot hole rolled over, the drill bit broke, and most of a spinning drill bit went into my arm (but morphine was good too). It sounds to me that you do at least have some curiosity about the possibility of something after we die. I really hope you give it some thought, fire hurts a hell of a lot more (pun intended) than a sharp hunting knife. Getting your information from a web site may not be the best way, either

Oh, and I really do feel bad for you, and I don't want to make light of your situation, but I do think it brings up a very valid point.


And about prisoners "finding God" (I personally believe God finds you when you're ready, not the other way around)... you have very little to do in prison other than to think. That's kindda the whole point of prison...

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by J-Ri

But, there is no "burden of proof", that's absolutely rediculous. Faith and proof are two entirely seperate things. The reason God doesn't give signs hat He exists is because we need to have faith in Him. That makes one thing very obvious now. You have no understanding of what you are rejecting. What you think we need to do is the exact opposite of what you need to do. But, if you want proof just wait, you'll have it one day; and that makes me very sad.

There has never been, nor will there ever be, any proof or evidence of the existence of any religious deity. Such belief is purely irrational and defies our understanding of how the world works. Which makes sense, as it seems that most people who rely on religion either lack the reasoning ability to grasp scientific principles or are simply uneducated/ignorant (refer to any of the threads on evolution). Being spiritual is one thing, but relying on archaic religious doctrine that arose because of a need to explain the world in an era when the world was not explicable shows only mental weakness and inflexibility. I have no problem with people who choose to integrate a spiritual understanding of the world with factual scientific principles (such as evolution). What I do have a problem with is those who choose to blindly follow religious doctrine that contradicts common sense. (Note that there is a BIG difference between spiritualism and religion).

In addressing the question of "what if" gos exists, it is easy for an atheist to answer from a logical standpoint. The fact of the matter is that if god does exist, and it is all knowing/all powerful/all good, then it would judge people based on their actions in life, not based on a trivial matter such as whether they choose to believe in a being that contradicts all extant physical evidence. If this being does then exist, and it does in fact judge based on belief systems versus judging based on merit, then this being is not all good/all knowing/all powerful as it violates basic principles of logic. That is to say that those who choose to reject the existence of the judgmental religious god due to scientific and logical reasoning could not be faulted for doing so by an all powerful/all knowing/all good being, as such a being would necessarily recognize the unlikelihood of its existence based on the lack of physical evidence that it would have provided. It is therefore unnecessary for atheists to worry in the slightest about eternal damnation, because if there does prove to be a god, it will undoubtedly judge based on how one's life was lived.

As a side note, I would like to mention that most of the agnostics/atheists I know are REALLY good people. When one does not have a religious crutch to lean on for moral guidance, the need to develop a set of moral values and ethics becomes a necessity. These ethics are usually based on the principles of objective secular humanism and environmentalism, and are almost always (at least in my experience) accompanied by a strong sense of integrity and responsibility to uphold those moral values. The same can most definitely not be said of most religious followers (ie roughly 95% if the world's population)

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by thrasher

There has never been, nor will there ever be, any proof or evidence of the existence of any religious deity. Such belief is purely irrational and defies our understanding of how the world works. Which makes sense, as it seems that most people who rely on religion either lack the reasoning ability to grasp scientific principles or are simply uneducated/ignorant (refer to any of the threads on evolution). Being spiritual is one thing, but relying on archaic religious doctrine that arose because of a need to explain the world in an era when the world was not explicable shows only mental weakness and inflexibility. I have no problem with people who choose to integrate a spiritual understanding of the world with factual scientific principles (such as evolution). What I do have a problem with is those who choose to blindly follow religious doctrine that contradicts common sense. (Note that there is a BIG difference between spiritualism and religion).

In addressing the question of "what if" gos exists, it is easy for an atheist to answer from a logical standpoint. The fact of the matter is that if god does exist, and it is all knowing/all powerful/all good, then it would judge people based on their actions in life, not based on a trivial matter such as whether they choose to believe in a being that contradicts all extant physical evidence. If this being does then exist, and it does in fact judge based on belief systems versus judging based on merit, then this being is not all good/all knowing/all powerful as it violates basic principles of logic. That is to say that those who choose to reject the existence of the judgmental religious god due to scientific and logical reasoning could not be faulted for doing so by an all powerful/all knowing/all good being, as such a being would necessarily recognize the unlikelihood of its existence based on the lack of physical evidence that it would have provided. It is therefore unnecessary for atheists to worry in the slightest about eternal damnation, because if there does prove to be a god, it will undoubtedly judge based on how one's life was lived.

As a side note, I would like to mention that most of the agnostics/atheists I know are REALLY good people. When one does not have a religious crutch to lean on for moral guidance, the need to develop a set of moral values and ethics becomes a necessity. These ethics are usually based on the principles of objective secular humanism and environmentalism, and are almost always (at least in my experience) accompanied by a strong sense of integrity and responsibility to uphold those moral values. The same can most definitely not be said of most religious followers (ie roughly 95% if the world's population)

HAHA! Oh man I haven't seen such blatant flame bait before. Here I'll throw some of my own around. We'll see who bites first.


I figured now would be a good time to state this. Just so people know, atheists and religious types are exactly the same. Thrasher, or any atheist for that matter, here thinks he's better or smarter than a Christian or religious type, he's not.

Let me explain. Atheists actually are more devoted to their beliefs than most religious folk. Why? They're willing to believe the impossible and unthinkable that most people won't. This idea is that reality is nothing. They believe it blindly and fully.

So how are they the same as a Christian or Muslim or other believer? Well, the atheist in order to believe this must be willing to give up their opinion and believe in something, an idea, greater than themselves.

Much like, yes the religious, who have no opinion and believe in something greater than themselves. In this case it's a higher being.

Now before somebody goes spouting of that their beliefs and blind following are justified compared to the religious, they're not. Here's how.

All things are made of molecules. All molecules, all things, are made of atoms.

Since there are no set rules to the universe there is absolutely no difference in anything. All things being atoms, there's no different between murder and cutting down a tree. Simply arrangments of molecules.

Sex with a 12 year old girl is wrong compared to sex with a 21 year old? Nothing more than cellular molecules with different amounts of hormones released.




Here we have an atom representing the cloth of a car's front seat. The other atom representing 37 year old man named Tod with a wife and kids.

Can you spot the difference?

These ethics are usually based on the principles of objective secular humanism and environmentalism, and are almost always (at least in my experience) accompanied by a strong sense of integrity and responsibility to uphold those moral values.

There is no humanism, environmentalims, integrity, and responsibility to protons, neutrons, or electrons. The universe is nothing more than a big grouping of atoms. What's the difference when you get down to it without a high being? None. Atheist cannot deny this and can try to spin it anyway they can but they can't.

Coming back to the original point of atheist blindly and willingly believing in something greater than themselves, just like the Christian saying we're all going to hell.

[-Davo]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Let me explain. Atheists actually are more devoted to their beliefs than most religious folk. Why? They're willing to believe the impossible and unthinkable that most people won't. This idea is that reality is nothing. They believe it blindly and fully.

You are smarter than that man. Come on.

That one sentence is a staw man argument, and a display of some pretty good irony.

Thrasher was spot on when it comes to the atheist logic, but in that one sentence Tang you are slightly incorrect.

Atheists, are not more devoted to their beliefs than most religious folks because if you can prove to us that God exists we will CEASE to be atheists.

If you can prove Evolution did not happen we will CEASE to accept evolution.

If you can prove that belief in a deity is logically acceptable in rational thought, than we will CEASE to accept our logic as the only reasonable form of thinking.


We can prove God does not exist (or has no need to exist - Prof. Victor J. Stenger), but you can't even prove Jesus existed. We've debunked creationism time and time again to the point that 12 years olds can debate creationist fundamentalists and win.

Atheists are not militant to their beliefs, because we are so close minded that we are only prepared to engaged in REALITY. I know it sounds unreasonable to anyone with a religious conviction, but if something isn't real that it seems that us atheists have a built in, automatic prejudice, that's right, a PREJUDICE, against pretending that it IS REAL.
In fact, I'm so close minded, when it comes to believing absurdities, and you won't believe this, but atheists actually require PROOF of what we believe in, that's right, hard-core forensic proof that will stand up in a court of law, of why we believe what we believe and perceive to be true.

And I think we both know that your scripture won't furnish that proof, even if you talked until the end of time.


The Christian logic is that water is liquid, therefore God exists.

The Atheists logic is water has surface tension and viscosity, therefore water is liquid.

We are open to science, which is a self-correcting process, when evidence arises that contradicts previous conclusions, laws, theories, hypotheses are THROWN OUT and NEW beliefs are formed based on NEW EVIDENCE.

We are not more devoted, because if something contradicts our belief, we are the first to CHANGE our belief.

How many religions do that? NONE

So how are they the same as a Christian or Muslim or other believer? Well, the atheist in order to believe this must be willing to give up their opinion and believe in something, an idea, greater than themselves.

This is a flat contradiction of the idea of religion.
Religion is based on faith, a belief without evidence.

Atheists, like my self, accept that in which science has proven. That which has evidence to SUPPORT a theory, and the logic of correction which is a concept zero religions accept nor understand.

We do not give up our opinion and believe in something, we form our opinions based on overwhelming, avalanches of evidence. We accept evolution because the evidence overwhelming points to evolution. We do not accept the earth is 6,000 years old because it CONTRADICTS the physical evidence.

Since there are no set rules to the universe there is absolutely no difference in anything. All things being atoms, there's no different between murder and cutting down a tree. Simply arrangments of molecules.

Sex with a 12 year old girl is wrong compared to sex with a 21 year old? Nothing more than cellular molecules with different amounts of hormones released.

I see what you're doing there and I am not impressed.

You are taking Atheism, and attributing scientific jargon to immoral and illegal sex acts (which does not even make any sense), that I can only assume you attribute atheism to. That is a straw man again, and SHAME on you for bringing up such nonsense.

Atheism is not a belief, its LACK of belief, therefore your straw man argument that we see no difference in murdering a person and a tree is just insane, atheists believe more so in value of life than religious because we do not KILL and MURDER and SLAUGHTER for what we believe in.

I fail to understand why you compared ethical and moral values with atomic chemistry, a field of science that you have obviously zero understanding in.

Your two diagrams just make no sense.

There is no humanism, environmentalims, integrity, and responsibility to protons, neutrons, or electrons. The universe is nothing more than a big grouping of atoms. What's the difference when you get down to it without a high being? None. Atheist cannot deny this and can try to spin it anyway they can but they can't.

So what you're saying is that because we don't believe in God, well actually we reject the concept (there is a difference), therefore we accept that we are nothing more than an arrangment of atoms?

You're right, we can't deny that because...Aww I dunno...

perhaps that in a nut shell that is fact not fiction

All you're doing is claiming we have no value for life, but you're doing it in a way that is creating a staw man argument in an attempt to convince your self that the religious (particular those who follow Christianity) have both the moral high ground AND the logical thinking required to justify a belief in the supernatural. Distorting our end just makes your argument weightless.

[-Davo]

Responding to J-Ri:

Well, alright!, we finally got you to capitalize His name! But, there is no "burden of proof", that's absolutely rediculous. Faith and proof are two entirely seperate things. The reason God doesn't give signs hat He exists is because we need to have faith in Him. That makes one thing very obvious now. You have no understanding of what you are rejecting. What you think we need to do is the exact opposite of what you need to do. But, if you want proof just wait, you'll have it one day; and that makes me very sad.

The onus is on the believer to show evidence to why they believe what they believe. This is a justified part of science, and does not change.

I have a clear understanding of that which I reject. I disbelieve in God both as a concept and a purported concretion. I was raised a Catholic, went to a Catholic school, and was raised as such.

Faith is belief without evidence, or as Mark Twain said: "faith is believing in something you know isn't true".

It is by mere chance that you born into the family that brought you up to believe what you believe, if you were raised in any other part of world, or history you could believe in other Gods that you reject, like Zeus, Apollo, or Thor.

You have faith in a God because that is what religion requires of you, there is no evidence or proof that he exists other than in the mind of delusional crazy people who claim hallucinations which can be explained scientifically (taken LSD recently?).

The burden of proof relies on ANYONE with a claim of truth. If you claim the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, you better have proof to back it up, and we do.

If you claim God exists, you better have pretty damn good evidence to back it up, and you do not. Only 'faith'. The entire concept of faith is flawed, and it is for this reason I reject a Deity. If you were to give evidence in court that, say for example, someone robbed the local liquor store, you are called to the stand, and you say that you cannot identify the man, you never saw him, but you have 'faith' that he did it. Lets now say that your religion demands that you require faith for any proposition you hold true under penalty of the false dichotomy of going to hell, no matter the cause. By your logic the man is guilty because you have faith that he is guilty, not evidence or proof, but faith.


There are literally thousands of Gods who have been invented by man over the past tens of thousands of years, in fact, here is a list of Gods that you do not believe in

It is by mere chance that one particular Roman leader was convinced to allow all religions in the Roman empire tolerable. His successor made it the religion of the empire, and that is why you were brought up in a Christian world.

It makes me sad people still believe ancient superstition, and want it taught in schools.

I was hoping you had perhaps given some though to accepting God into your life.

When God appears to me, I will believe in God, but until then, I am still awaiting for Kanayama-hime to appear to me so I can believe in him...her...

There's tons of blood and it really hurts, but while your body is pumping out the endorphins, it's not really all that bad. In my case, I was not even going to go to the hospital, but after I started to feel weak, I figured I should. The real pain started at the hospital (the sick-to-your-stomache, want to collapse, fuzzy fision, someone hold the room still, damn is it cold in here kind)

Was it as cold for you too? Damn air conditioner was on freezing, and it was quite uncomfortable yeah. When you lose a lot of blood and sit up, you nearly throw up it's horrible!

It seems, then, that any thoughts you had would have been rational, regardless of when it was. Why are you afraid to die? It seems only reasonable that you could be afriad of the pain, but why would you say you're afriad to die?

Yeah I accept that my thoughts were quite irrational, but I was afraid to die because I enjoy breathing.

If God does not exist, then why would you be afraid of nothing? If when we die, we only stop having thoughts, why be afriad of it? Absolutely nothing would have been infinately greater than the pain I felt when the alternator I was holding with my hand to enlarge the pivot hole rolled over, the drill bit broke, and most of a spinning drill bit went into my arm (but morphine was good too). It sounds to me that you do at least have some curiosity about the possibility of something after we die. I really hope you give it some thought, fire hurts a hell of a lot more (pun intended) than a sharp hunting knife. Getting your information from a web site may not be the best way, either

It's possibly not dying I think people are afraid of, I think it's that they never do what they wanted. Personally, I wanted to spend more time with Dad, travel the world, do more sweet burn outs, and finish uni. But there is nothing after we die, only speculation. The Christian view of life after death is not the only concept thought by man. The Egyptians believed in life after death for pharaohs, kings and queens, Christianity said anyone can have eternal life, and is the only driving factor in the rise of Christianity in the 1st century C.E. It was not the only cult at the time to offer eternal salvation, local plebs in Rome, a male-only cult worshiped Horace, but never caught on because women and children were not allowed.

Why do you not follow that cult? Logical deduction - it's all a load of speculative bullshit.

Besides, according to Mark 3:29 I'm doomed anyway.

[blazee]

Well, it looks like the Intelligent Design people were right.

[ericn1300]

I love that video, particularly at 1:38 into it when the host says “I make the biggest discovery in the history of humanity”. What an arrogant ass.

[CL8]

Well, if any of you mechanics go to a deserted island and see a Porsche and no person around, are you going to believe a big explosion put that Porsche together?

[blazee]

Originally Posted by CL8

Well, if any of you mechanics go to a deserted island and see a Porsche and no person around, are you going to believe a big explosion put that Porsche together?

Nope, and I'm not going to believe that the invisible man waved his arms around and farted it out either.

[CL8]

The earth and universe is infinitely more complex than an automobile.

If an automobile needs an intelligent maker and designer, how much more this world and universe!

[MagicRat]

The universe certainly has more items in it than a car, but is governed by understandable physical laws. The fact that we do not understand all the applicable laws (quantum physics et al.) is no reason to believe that a fictional deity created it.

Respectfully, the only reason why some people believe in any kind of a deity at all is because they were indoctrinated (told to do so) at a young age and still find their beliefs give them comfort (and sometimes fear/discipline) in later years. Imho, god has become a substitute parental figure for believers.

But there is absolutely nothing in the real, physical world that supports the existence of a god. Yes, there are things that humans do not understand yet, but this is a limitation of the human condition and is not evidence of god's existence.

FWIW, I find moderate, modern Christianity (and other moderate religions) to provide an excellent moral compass, cultural center and guide for a decent, constructive life, but it make a terrible guide for answering questions about the nature of the universe.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

The universe certainly has more items in it than a car, but is governed by understandable physical laws. The fact that we do not understand all the applicable laws (quantum physics et al.) is no reason to believe that a fictional deity created it.

Correct no FICTIONAL Deity did create the universe it was a REAL Deity.

Respectfully, the only reason why some people believe in any kind of a deity at all is because they were indoctrinated (told to do so) at a young age and still find their beliefs give them comfort (and sometimes fear/discipline)

Wrong! Bill Murray, the late Madeline Murray OHares' son is a born again Christian.
You know he wasn't taught to believe in any god in his house growing up!!!

in later years. Imho, god has become a substitute parental figure for believers.

Especially after your mom and dad die or leave you. That is taught in the bible,
Psalm 27:10 "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up."

But there is absolutely nothing in the real, physical world that supports the existence of a god. Yes, there are things that humans do not understand yet, but this is a limitation of the human condition and is not evidence of god's existence.

Ps19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament sheweth his handi work."
I refer to my original point, if a car needs a designer, so does the universe.

FWIW, I find moderate, modern Christianity (and other moderate religions) to provide an excellent moral compass, cultural center and guide for a decent, constructive life, but it make a terrible guide for answering questions about the nature of the universe.

So does Darwinism!