Best Car Ever

[Porsche]

Well to answer the question on why peope would spend such an amount for a car, I think the clearest answer lies int he fact that when you are successful enough to buy any supercar, it becomes a status symbol and the true performance non-wuss cars that are race bred beasts are for the successful people who just want the best of the best.

Take the Helicopter for example, you coudl get a UH-1 Huey for about $400,000 used. If you wanted the best of the best however you could opt for the $8,000,000 (I think it's 8) AH-64 Apache. But for 8 milllion you could buy a private jet.

It all comes down to how much you're willing to pay for the best of the best.

[TexasF355F1]

Most of us in the AF forums are so car crazy, that if any of us had the money to spend $1,000,000 on a car it wouldn't be hard to write the check. Plus we love cars more than helicopters.:flash: :jumpie:

[dirk-diggler]

Thanks for clearing that up, if I had a million dollars I would aslo buy an F1 without thinking twice, I just could never understand why. now I do!

[Ringo]

Yeah! the F1 is one swell car, but why did they decide to go with a BMW motor(I know they have 100 hp per liter) but they could have used a real F1 motor from the time it was built, like Hakkinen's Mercedes engine.

[faisalkhan]

Because an F1 motor would last about 45 minutes before requiring a rebuild.

They originally approached Honda to develop the engine, since they were partnering with Honda for F1 racing at that time. But Honda was not interested.

BMW's custom developed V12 (it was derived from two M1 V6 motors) exceeded their expectations in every way except weight. For the performance gains, they decided to accept the small weight penalty.

[drewwtms]

Some other background on the BMW V12:

It is rumored that BMW was already working on a super-V12 based on the then-new 750iL and 850i. The motor never went into production as such. BMW experimented with an M8 for a while using a V12 but shelved the plans (a high-performance 850CSi model eventually came on the market but did not use the McLaren F1 motor).

I believe that the McLaren motor wasn't really based on that although it they are close. I think BMW designed a whole new block for McLaren. The two 24-valve heads on the McLaren V12 are close to the head found on a 1995 3.0-liter Euro-spec M3 engine: 4 valves/cylinder, dohc, variable valve timing on both cams. That part of the engine was surely in development at BMW by the time McLaren went looking.

The basic M1 inline-6 (not a V6) engine was 20 years old by 1990. For 1991, BMW rolled out a new inline-6 for the M5 that was different from the first generation E28 M5 and M6 and M1. The M5 engine was 3.5 and 3.8 liters (depending on the year and market).

Anyone feel free to add or correct me on the above (I was going off of memory).

[Peloton25]

Drew - you pretty much nailed it. :sun:

I recently typed this up for someone on a different forum to read. It will explain why BMW was the chosen engine supplier for those who may still be questioning that.

= = = = =

To quote Gordon Murray from "Driving Ambition":
"Of course the engine was a priority from day one, minimum requirement of 450-horsepower. The Ferrari F40 and Porsche 959 were already in the 450-480 bracket, and heavier than we would be so I knew we'd have a better power-to-weight ratio. We all wanted a naturally-aspirated V12, a vividly responsive, gutsy engine - a real spine-tingler. That ruled out any big V8 and especially anything turbocharged - because of throttle lag, and muffled noise. We listed the manufacturers able to make high-revving, large-capacity, normally-aspirted engines capable of 100hp per litre. It was a short list - just Honda, BMW and Ferrari. For obvious reasons, Ferrari was a non-starter... so then there were two."
Honda was McLaren International's Formula 1 partner at the time - their R&D centre at Tochigi, outside tokyo, an obvious port of call. They were interested in a collaborative programmme - but hopefully a 3.5-litre one.

"We had several meetings at Tochigi and the only discussion was wherher it should be a V10 or a V12. Their engineers were keen. Early on they dismissed developing a racing engine to suit, because it's cheaper and easier to start from scratch building a 100bhp-per-litre engine than to detune a 200bhp-per-litre racer. "

Negotiations with Honda drifted. Perhaps the Japanese were nervous of 'green' considerations, perhaps it was their as yet unheralded withdrawl from Formula 1. But then Jaguar and Bugatti launched turbocharged 'supercars' with as much as 550-horsepower.

"Even though I knew they were going to be 50 percent heavier, that made me wary on engine capacity so I raised our requirement to a 5.3-litre V12. Honda really started to go cold...

We had been packaging the car around a 5-litre V12. Time was running out. We talked to other manufacturers. Three were serious, Isuzu so serious they'd build us a 5.3 V12 from scratch. But we badly needed a track record."

A glittering one existed - one which Gordon had participated, but which he was overlooking - while in the background Ron Dennis had long been cultivating a possible future collaboration with the same company: BMW. At one stage the Munich board had been close to a Formula 1 deal, but delayed their decision so long that McLaren had to go elsewhere.

When Gordon attended his first Grand Prix since '88 - the 1990 German event at Hockenheim - he met an old friend - Paul Rosche, cheif engineer of BMW Motorsport.

Paul Rosche: "I asked Gordon 'How's the engine going for your new sport car?' He was very quiet telling me that he didn't know, but one thing was certain was that they were running out of time. I told him 'We could do the engine for you...'"

= = = = =

The text goes on to outline the process for development and details of the engine that BMW would build for the McLaren F1 project. If you don't own this book, and are passionate about the F1, you should really find yourself a copy to read sometime.

Incidentally, there's no mention of any direct similarities between the McLaren F1's S70/2 engine and the original BMW M1's, though you have to imagine that there was some engineering that trickeled down from it. The text does mention that the McLaren engine inherited many features proved in the 6-cyl power unit for their (BMW's) M5 high-performance saloon. Interestingly, the F1 engine doesn't utilize Titanium valves or connecting rods which are so common nowadays in high-revving, high-horsepower applications.

>8^)
ER

[Ringo]

Thanks for the info Peloton25, it was most enlightening. I always thought the engine came from a BMW 850 that was simply enlarged displacement. I had no Idea they "scratch built it"!

[drewwtms]

A little more history (I love being a history buff):

Jeremy Walton's amazing book, "Unbeatable BMW", has some inside information on the development of the S70/2 V12 engine. In 1991 BMW had an R&D car from the 850i. It had a 6.0-liter, 48-valve, dohc V12 (sound familiar?). This M8 used an engine that was an enlarged version of the standard 850i's 5.0-liter V12. Output, according to Walton, was more than 500 hp. BMW's top executives killed the project but BMW's engine guys kept the idea around. When McLaren laid out their requirments Paul Rosche already had the goods.

[993cc Man]

...and here is a pic of the M8

[Peloton25]

Originally posted by 993cc Man
...and here is a pic of the M8

...and here is a very rare look under the M8's bonnet.

>8^)
ER

[drewwtms]

I've been here only a week or so but you guys continue to astound me. Nice pictures from both of you.

Peloton, you gotta put out a CD or something with all of these images that you have. It's just amazing.:sun:

[Peloton25]

Thanks Drew - my image archive numbers close to 40,000 and has eclipsed 5 Gigabytes. I have them all cataloged by Manufacturer and by model making things easy to find. I doubt I could sell the CD's though as many different people own the copyrights to the images I have. I'm always happy to share though.

BTW: Did you get an email from me through this website btw?? I didn't see a reply yet and was starting to wonder.

>8^)
ER

[drewwtms]

I did get your e-mail, thanks. I was going to send you a reply (and post something here) when I learned more about the F1 LM. I don't have any more information right now as the owner is traveling now.

Keep up the good work.

[Peloton25]

Cool deal - I'm a patient person.

Thanks for being the man on the inside.

>8^)
ER