Evolution

[MBTN]

The complexity of everything came from evolution. We evolved from a blob of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and lots of other goodies. I believe i'm from a pile of mush than people just appeared out of nowhere.

If the sun wasn't made until the 4th day, then how would anyone know how long the first 3 days were?!

How would anyone know the sun was made until the 4th day if no one even existed back then?

They wouldn't...

[enzo@af]

It's funny you mention the complexity of the eye, Heep. In my last Biology class we discussed a theoretical way in which an eye could develop. It was a very simple and logical explanation...logical enough that it passed from being just "believable" to being "completely probably, and very likely".

About the how would we know about the days thing which MBTN mentioned, wasn't that supposedly what God told those writing the bible?

[GOD]

[LakeMountLude]

They didn't have to have belly-buttons but there kids did! The theory of evolution where "Evolutionists" say that protein buildup in the ocean which eventually led to single-celled organisms has many gaps too. If this is true than while "evolving" the single-celled organisms would have no natural enemy and would actually be able to live without worrying about the radiation from the sun etc. and therefore would not allow a natural enemy to produce itself... your tellin me that in two billion years that DNA just created itself and found ways to adapt and evolve? i dont think so.. nature is obviously "alive" and it is alive cuase it is the creation of god. start believing man.. when doomsday comes you may be left out! oh yeah and why havent we seen alien life when there are trillions of trillions of trillions of galaxies in the universe? i mean hell if evolution were true than ever star capable of supporting planets would have lifeforms adapted to that life correct? where are they? why havent they even tried to make contact?

[Lizard King]

There is evidence supporting both creation and evolution, and both have several unexplainable parts to them.

But that simply isn't true. Theres no evidence for creation - none whatsoever.

But I agree with your last sentance in that reply.

About the how would we know about the days thing which MBTN mentioned, wasn't that supposedly what God told those writing the bible?

Its convenient that God only had contact with people back then isn't it?

[LakeMountLude]

Can you explain the shroud of Turin? Or how about the evidence of a mass flood at roughly the same time the bible says there was one? Can you explain miracles, you think things happen out of luck? And if religion isn't real why has for the last 2500 years have billions of people worshiped the same god?

[enzo@af]

Originally posted by LakeMountLude
...your tellin me that in two billion years that DNA just created itself and found ways to adapt and evolve? B]

Well, yes. Except, DNA didn't have to figure out how to change, the change comes from random "mistakes" in reproduction, or from natural selection. We've already listed some examples of that here, if you want some.

Originally posted by LakeMountLude
[B...and why havent we seen alien life when there are trillions of trillions of trillions of galaxies in the universe?...

Well, I would say it's because the planets are just too far away. Even traveling at the speed of light (which is impossible according to the special theory of relativity) it would take 5+ years to get here from the closest star (assuming that star has life).

Also, the facets that went into supposedly making life from chemicals in pools and such had to be just right. Not too incredibly likely that they existed too many other places. But I agree, I think there is other life out there.

[LakeMountLude]

i happen to disagree with the dna thing but i guess we will never really know so im not going to argue evolution anymore lol.. but i will argue phsyics and astronomy.. the cloesest star is proxima centauri which is 4.22 light years away.. and the speed of light is bout 186,300 mps (rounded).. so ya ill give ya that.. but any advanced civilization would know quantum physics, time, and the space-time continium, and they would also obviously know that there are such things as wormholes, and although the speed of light is impossibly bein said so by einstein and also time travel being impossibly it is not impossible for you to travel a distance further than light in less amount of time.. mainly through wormholes.. so im sure they would know....

[texan]

C'mon LakeMountLude, be realistic..

Hypothesis: This was the death shroud of Jesus Christ, and deserves to be worhsipped and seen as proof of the Bible's veracity.
Reality: The Shroud of Turin is a peice of cloth from unknown origin that has stains on it. These stains, when veiwed together and under certain light (or in negative form), appear to form the face of a middle age white man! There are at least 1/2 billion middle age white males living today. Furthermore, Jesus was not white, yet the face that appears on the Shroud is clearly that of a caucasian male. Using this as proof of the Bible would be like finding an artifact from the burial of one of the 1/2 billion middle age men currently on the planet, finding it in say, Los Angeles, and coming to the oh-so logical conclusion that it's proof of my existence and definitely shows the miracles at work surrounding my life. Now of course there were plenty of other people buried here in this time, many of whom would basically fit my description, but that's not important. It's also not important that you didn't actually find it here, or that there is no solid record if it's origins. Fact: April 10 (or 16), 1349: The Hundred Year War had been raging between France and England for over eleven years and the Black Death had just finished ravaging most of Europe when Geoffrey de Charny, a French knight, writes to Pope Clement VI reporting his intention to build a church at Lirey, France. It is said he builds St. Mary of Lirey church to honor the Holy Trinity who answered his prayers for a miraculous escape while a prisoner of the English. He is also already in possession of the Shroud, which some believe he acquired in Constantinople.
So what we should believe here is that an artifact, whose history is filled with a glaring 1300 year gap, whose precise origins are not known and all such attempts to solidify them end in circumstancial evidence, is in fact the face of God incarnate. And how do we know this? Because Geoffrey de Charny said so, and because millions of other people believe him (both then and now). Yes, there are absolutely no holes in that theory .

Hypothesis: There must have been a mass flood around 4400 year ago, because it says so in the Bible. Let's go looking for evidence!
Reality: The only solid evidence of flooding at any time in modern history is not global, but centers around the Black Sea. This flood was amazingly destructive, and likely wiped out hundreds to thousands of miles of living coastland (people inhabited much of this). Although I have visited the Creationist sites dedicated to reconciling evidence of the Biblical flood, to proving the Bible's worht through this, I am not convinced. And please understand I approach this from an open mind, as my current belief in macro-evolution has pretty much been removed by Heep's postings of Dr. Hovind's lectures. But evidence for the biblical flood? I don't think so.



"And if religion isn't real why has for the last 2500 years have billions of people worshiped the same god?"

Now there's a solid argument... because everyone else thinks so, it MUST be true! Didn't your mother straighten that kind of thinking out for ya when you were a kid? In fact, a large portion of the world is either Islamic, Hinduist, Eastern Dualist, Pagan, or downright Atheistic. And although your Christian religion takes it's origins from the Old and New Testaments (also know this: your Bible is a creation of the Roman Catholic Church, NOT God),it isn't the oldest or the most common belief system. So who's right? A few billion followers of Islam, a few billion of Christ, a few billion in Vishnu, or Marduk, or maybe it's Mother nature instead? All I know is that last statement proves nothing about what is and what is not.

[MBTN]

LakeDude, I didn't say religion wasn't real. All I meant was it's bull shit.

We all pray to the same "god", because the human race needs a scape goat for all the fucked up things they do. "Forgive me, God, for I have lied." Basically, that makes it all better, and people can go on lying, because all they have to is "asl" for forgivness.

Bull shit.

What about Dinosaurs, what about the pebble stuck under my sneaker? That pebble is millions of years old probably.

You still didn't answer my question about the sun being made on the fourth day. With out it, how long could anyone (no one even "existed" back then according to that lying and contradicting book) have know the previous 3 days' lengths?
Perhaps the first day was 25 hours? 25 weeks, 25 months ?25 millions years?

"god" can kiss my ass. See, he doesn't exists because he hasn't done a damn thing to me. Perhaps he forgave me...


Open your eyes.

[Lizard King]

quote:
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Originally posted by LakeMountLude
[B...and why havent we seen alien life when there are trillions of trillions of trillions of galaxies in the universe?...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But we have seen them......:grey:

The flood, if it happened at all, was probably a localised disaster. To the people of the area, without modern communication, it would have seemed to have been a huge catastrophe that engulfed the world. Their world yes - the whole world no.

Where has all the water gone? How did this guy Noah get EVERY animal onto an ark? What about the food that they eat? Koalas only eat fresh eucalyptus leaves - where was the supply of fresh leaves? There are so many flaws its unreal. I know of many off hand, but there are many more than I know where to find listed. I can post them.

[Heep]

The Latin (I think...) word originally used during the first writing of Genesis is the same word as other mentions of the Latin word for day. These other instances show "day" to be 24 hours...also the definition of the Latin word is "a 24 hour period", so I don't beleive that they were 25 million year long days.

Yes, Adam would have to believe God when he said that he made the sun when he said he did, but he'd have to believe God when he said that he even created the sun. If God audibly (and later came down physically in the Garden of Eden) spoke to you, I think you would believe in Him, and that He is telling the truth (He also cannot lie).

So, of course you have to believe in Adam to believe that this is viable...otherwise it will just seem like a bunch of crap.

If you believe creation, the flood is extremely viable. Some water went into the sky (clouds), some into the ground (wells), and the rest rivers and oceans. The ground was still quite yound and soft...plus a year long covering and shifting of water on the earth could and would break down the young earth and create different layers, burying bones from dead animals, etc. Also, if you believe in the Flood, creation makes the most sense as well.

If you don't believe creation, the flood makes absolutely no sense, as it would accelerate the wear and erosion of land so much that it, plus the billions of years before would make the continents much smaller and places like the Grand Canyon would be much bigger.

Anyway, I'm getting tired of fighting this battle, since none of us are ever going to convince the other to believe the same. So, I'm gonna sign off, just occasionally looking back. If you really need anything from me, just ask for me, but otherwise I'm just gonna believe what I believe as if this whole topic never came up.

Really I learned a lot about both creation and evolution...it's been a good experience

[LakeMountLude]

first of all anyone with a picture of a "firebat" from starcraft on there signiture is obviously young.. so you are probobly (and no offense!) a lil immature and havent experienced religion yet and are a lil rebellious well that or you jsut dont get it.. i think jesus is testin us.. i feel he made the bible to tell us the truth then made evolution to test our faith and his word.. who are we to go against what he says? he made us... well if i was you i would start praying man.. i mean what could it hurt? we all need someone to talk to

[MBTN]

Yes but Heep, the latin language has nothing to do with this. The way we know a day is by the sun. If "god" didn't make the sun until the 4th day, how would anyone (no one even existed then anyway ) know the length of the previous 3 days? They couldn't, maybe the day was 25 HOURS, or 25 million years, who knows. Certainly not the bible.
There is no explaination, the bible is a joke.



LakeDude, that is absolutely the stupidest response to my statement. I have a picture of a firebat, so what!?!
If you must know, I'm 17.

And BTW, you are not allowed to have sex, because according to the bible, sex is wrong.

Jesus made evolution?! LOL LOL LOL!
I thought you didn't believe in evolution! That's the funniest thing I've heard in a while. AND you read that folks, he's doing it to test us!!!!! Wow, I hope I pass this test. You must be joking. So jesus just decided one day to invent evolution, so he could test us.
Then what.
You thoughts and idealogies are about as facticious as the ones inthe bible.

Think about your "god" in times of war when people are being killed. Where is your "god" then.

Please explain dinosaurs.

DID Adam and Eve have belly buttons? I want to know what you think of that question. What's your answer?

[LakeMountLude]

dude if you would pick up a book and "read" for once then you would see that god said he will not have contact with people "directly" again until his last coming.. if you watch the movie the ten commandments (based on the truth of the exodus and moses) he would send angels down to communicate to people to make things happen the right way.. and before he wiped out all of man kind with the great flood... so that is why people die in wars.... and yes you are allowed to have sex.. it says your not supposed to before marriage.. but again if you would have "read" or "listened" to something important that you would also know that jesus died for our sins.. in other words (for the dumber of the group) he died so everytime we sin it gets put on him when we ask gods forgiveness.. so when we do bad when we ask for forgiveness we are forgave .. cool huh? well all i can say man is you can rebel all you want, but if you read revelations (that would be the end of the bible) it says that the antichrist, the devil, and all of his followers will be thrown into a humongous lake of burning sulfur.. have fun ...