Getting tired of hearing this from car reviewers

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by RidingOnRailz

The Mali was like that from the factory. Problem is on that year the electric p.s. lent no feedback. It felt the same weight-wise from center to side to side! I don't mind if my car pulls on a worn or heavily crowned street - as long as it pulls to the right!

You could sell it and buy something a little more entertaining?

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by Moppie

You could sell it and buy something a little more entertaining?

Uhm, read 1/2way down through my post #10 to see what I'm currently driving - and enjoying(!)

[Black Lotus]

Originally Posted by RidingOnRailz

The Mali was like that from the factory. Problem is on that year the electric p.s. lent no feedback. It felt the same weight-wise from center to side to side! I don't mind if my car pulls on a worn or heavily crowned street - as long as it pulls to the right!

Hmm.
I like cars that don't have a big force buildup as you steer into a corner.
Steering that gets heavier and heavier as the chassis loads up is for rookies and grandmothers, IMO. Magazines testers seem to like it 'tho. Probably because it is "safe" and it tends to discourages a person from going fast around the corner (you shouldn't be doing this, mister).
Drove a Pontiac G6 rental car a couple years ago, and not only did the steering feel "sticky" on center, it had no self-centering at all.
Seems that I drove it down the road in a series of zig-zags.
Spoiled what was otherwise a pretty good car.
Mentioned it at work and a gal said her dad owned one. He (75 years old) had mentioned to her that the steering was "funny"--but he bought it anyway.....

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by Black Lotus

Hmm.
I like cars that don't have a big force buildup as you steer into a corner.
Steering that gets heavier and heavier as the chassis loads up is for rookies and grandmothers, IMO. Magazines testers seem to like it 'tho. Probably because it is "safe" and it tends to discourages a person from going fast around the corner (you shouldn't be doing this, mister).
Drove a Pontiac G6 rental car a couple years ago, and not only did the steering feel "sticky" on center, it had no self-centering at all.
Seems that I drove it down the road in a series of zig-zags.
Spoiled what was otherwise a pretty good car.
Mentioned it at work and a gal said her dad owned one. He (75 years old) had mentioned to her that the steering was "funny"--but he bought it anyway.....

Congratulations on your experience in the G6: You just drove the cousin of the Malibu!! LOL. They all had that video-game feel for those years.

Seriously though. "Sticky on center"? Please explain that one. LOL
It contradicts your next sentence "no self-centering at all." regarding the G6.

Your first two sentences also contradict each other - first you say you like force buildup, then you say "chassis loads up is for rookies....."

Please clarify all the above and explain what you think is the "ideal" steering feel.

Signed,

-Confounded

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by RidingOnRailz

Uhm, read 1/2way down through my post #10 to see what I'm currently driving - and enjoying(!)

Ahh, I was looking at one of those at a carshow on the weekend.
The guy pushing it made it very clear that the NZ/Au models all had a firmer suspension set up than the rest of the world gets.

Originally Posted by RidingOnRailz

-Confounded

I understood him perfectly, he just said it doesn't handle like a Lotus..

[Black Lotus]

By sticky, I mean that you put a little effort at the wheel and nothing happens, then put a little more and nothing happens, then put a little more and the wheel turns-- and the car corrects a little than you intended (or I intended).
In my experience with a typical car, the effort at steering wheel,when you are negotiating a turn, tends to get higher and higher the faster the car goes around the corner.
I don't like that. A person ends up fighting the wheel -the car is fighting back -trying to
steer the car around the corner. I believe the car should be guided around the corner with a minimum of effort on my part. I like to be able to sense what the front tires are doing with my fingertips, so to speak. I don't like to have to use a death grip on the wheel because the car is trying to automatically straighten the wheels out while I'm trying to feel for grip.
Typically, with power steering equipped cars, the steering effort is not high at all, but the steering feels vague to me.
The car tries to straighten the wheels by itself using king pin inclination, caster, scrub radius and pneumatic trail that is generated from the steered tires contact patch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_trail
Caster combined with scrub radius really tries to load the steering wheel up with self-centering forces in a corner. This masks the feel of the tire contact patch itself.
As the cornering speed builds up, the tire begins to distort, the length of the contact patch begins to shorten from the rear to the front of the tire. By itself then, the steering will get lighter because of reduced self aligning torque. This gives a driver an indication the the tire is starting to run out of grip. Left by itself and with "not enough" caster, the self aligning torque will be no more and could actually reverse. At a reduced caster- to 1.5*, in certain conditions, my '89 Lotus will steer by itself into the corner and if you let go of the wheel it will dart in and attempt to spin out...it's actually fun!
Typically the manufacturer will add steering weight or effort back into the steering artificially with more caster, etc., to discourage grandma from driving like this. But this muddies the feedback you're getting from the tires.
Unfortunately, the addition of power steering almost mandates more caster just to give you a sense of where "center" is, so you'll loose much of the real feedback from the tires right there.
The trick is to give the car enough power boost to enable grandma to parallel park the car and retain some tire feedback that the enthusiasts want.
It's a pretty tricky thing to do, I guess.
What was the question again?
I forgot, time to go to bed.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by Black Lotus

By sticky, I mean that you put a little effort at the wheel and nothing happens, then put a little more and nothing happens, then put a little more and the wheel turns-- and the car corrects a little than you intended (or I intended).
In my experience with a typical car, the effort at steering wheel,when you are negotiating a turn, tends to get higher and higher the faster the car goes around the corner.
I don't like that. A person ends up fighting the wheel -the car is fighting back -trying to
steer the car around the corner. I believe the car should be guided around the corner with a minimum of effort on my part. I like to be able to sense what the front tires are doing with my fingertips, so to speak. I don't like to have to use a death grip on the wheel because the car is trying to automatically straighten the wheels out while I'm trying to feel for grip.
Typically, with power steering equipped cars, the steering effort is not high at all, but the steering feels vague to me.
The car tries to straighten the wheels by itself using king pin inclination, caster, scrub radius and pneumatic trail that is generated from the steered tires contact patch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_trail
Caster combined with scrub radius really tries to load the steering wheel up with self-centering forces in a corner. This masks the feel of the tire contact patch itself.
As the cornering speed builds up, the tire begins to distort, the length of the contact patch begins to shorten from the rear to the front of the tire. By itself then, the steering will get lighter because of reduced self aligning torque. This gives a driver an indication the the tire is starting to run out of grip. Left by itself and with "not enough" caster, the self aligning torque will be no more and could actually reverse. At a reduced caster- to 1.5*, in certain conditions, my '89 Lotus will steer by itself into the corner and if you let go of the wheel it will dart in and attempt to spin out...it's actually fun!
Typically the manufacturer will add steering weight or effort back into the steering artificially with more caster, etc., to discourage grandma from driving like this. But this muddies the feedback you're getting from the tires.
Unfortunately, the addition of power steering almost mandates more caster just to give you a sense of where "center" is, so you'll loose much of the real feedback from the tires right there.
The trick is to give the car enough power boost to enable grandma to parallel park the car and retain some tire feedback that the enthusiasts want.
It's a pretty tricky thing to do, I guess.
What was the question again?
I forgot, time to go to bed.

Sounds like what you need is a BMW! My wife drove two of her boss's 3 series from 2003 and 2005, and while both cars were "tight", she did mention that she had to center the steering wheel herself. The wheel did return to center, but verrrrry slowly, at 20, 40, or even 60mph. What she did notice is how stiff the wheel was to turn - not all loosey-goosey a la vintage Buick. And when she did need a quick course correction - that Bimmer was more than obedient! Interesting combination; I don't know how they do it.

I just feel more secure with a fast rate of return and some heft away from center. I shouldn't have to check if my car's logo is right-side-up to know where I'm aiming the steering wheel at. LOL! I should know by feel if I going into a turn, actually in a turn, and coming out of one - particularly after dark.

And I guess my other recent post - of Ferrari & Lotus alignment specs - missed everyone completely. My purpose for posting that data was to demonstrate that huge amounts of caster or SAI were not necessary for good road feel - reducing power steering assist is!

[Black Lotus]

Originally Posted by RidingOnRailz

Sounds like what you need is a BMW!
And I guess my other recent post - of Ferrari & Lotus alignment specs - missed everyone completely. My purpose for posting that data was to demonstrate that huge amounts of caster or SAI were not necessary for good road feel - reducing power steering assist is!

No, I like the feel I get from my '89. It's even better than my 2003 Esprit with power steering. It's like you have your hands right out there on the steering linkage. The 2003 car is relatively numb IMO.
If your steering is good or accurate enough, you don't need to have it firm on center. If the car wanders a tick from the center of the lane, all it should need is maybe an ounce or two of force from your fingers or wrist to bring it back. However I have to work a little harder if the road is worn out (grooves, ridges, etc.). Grandma might put in in a ditch while lighting her cigar while holding her beer at night because of that.
On the cars I've tried it on, reducing the caster to the point where it's barely stable, at the speeds that I normally drive on a back road blitz seems to work for me. The '89 Esprit seems to be rock solid at 140 MPH, still. And that might be good aerodynamics coming into play. Another person driving the car might not appreciate the fact that you can't just hang your hands on the wheel, or the amount of kickback you get when the wheel hits a big bump.
I saw your other post, I didn't know what to make of it.
If your curious, and I happen to be a slimey showoff anyway -- here's my two Loti.
The '89 has model year 94+ S4 plastic front and rear, plus a GT3 rear transom/spoiler. I also put the old narrow SE wheels on it (shown) and found that it handles better.
Gotta go out and tinker with the 2003 now--prepping it up for an intercooler installation later in the year.
Cheers.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by Black Lotus

No, I like the feel I get from my '89. It's even better than my 2003 Esprit with power steering. It's like you have your hands right out there on the steering linkage. The 2003 car is relatively numb IMO.
If your steering is good or accurate enough, you don't need to have it firm on center. If the car wanders a tick from the center of the lane, all it should need is maybe an ounce or two of force from your fingers or wrist to bring it back. However I have to work a little harder if the road is worn out (grooves, ridges, etc.). Grandma might put in in a ditch while lighting her cigar while holding her beer at night because of that.
On the cars I've tried it on, reducing the caster to the point where it's barely stable, at the speeds that I normally drive on a back road blitz seems to work for me. The '89 Esprit seems to be rock solid at 140 MPH, still. And that might be good aerodynamics coming into play. Another person driving the car might not appreciate the fact that you can't just hang your hands on the wheel, or the amount of kickback you get when the wheel hits a big bump.
I saw your other post, I didn't know what to make of it.
If your curious, and I happen to be a slimey showoff anyway -- here's my two Loti.
The '89 has model year 94+ S4 plastic front and rear, plus a GT3 rear transom/spoiler. I also put the old narrow SE wheels on it (shown) and found that it handles better.
Gotta go out and tinker with the 2003 now--prepping it up for an intercooler installation later in the year.
Cheers.

Nice rides! But I must ask: How does a vehicle remain directionally stable with nearly perfectly vertical steering axes(SAI and Caster)? I must be missing something here.

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by RidingOnRailz

Nice rides! But I must ask: How does a vehicle remain directionally stable with nearly perfectly vertical steering axes(SAI and Caster)? I must be missing something here.

The secret is to use a Triumph Herald upright between the upper and lower wishbones.
Don't ask why, but it just works.
Every pre-Elise Lotus uses them, from the Europa to the V8 Esprit.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by Moppie

The secret is to use a Triumph Herald upright between the upper and lower wishbones.
Don't ask why, but it just works.
Every pre-Elise Lotus uses them, from the Europa to the V8 Esprit.

Well, unfortunately most econoboxes don't utilized wishbone suspensions. I'll have to do more research into the herald upright - sounds interesting!

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by RidingOnRailz

Well, unfortunately most econoboxes don't utilized wishbone suspensions.

Worked for Honda during the 90s......

[Black Lotus]

SAI for my V8 is 9.7*. Front caster is +3* according to the Tech Notes.
SAI for my '89 is 9.2*. Front caster is minimum +1.5*, max +3* (pre Eagle chassis--my car..)
Eagle chassis caster-- preferred +1.0*, max +1.5*.
Stock, the '89 has a slight amount of front toe-in, and the 2003 V8 has a slight amount of toe-out.
Since I have a portable laser aligner at home, I do my own suspension alignments, and have found both cars are VERY sensitive to toe in the front. Also, sensitive to camber in the back.
Too much camber in the back leads to wandering behavior on worn roads--(tire camber thrust?), altho' this may be a case where the tire I selected is not compatible with the car.
The Eagle chassis cars had pro-dive instead of anti-dive geometry, and had too much understeer for most testers.
------------------------
An interesting note, Lotus was interested in developing a new damper/spring package to sell to owners who wanted to upgrade their suspensions. This package makes the cars more compatible with the newer tires that are available. (I bought this for my 2003)
So they asked for a number of volunteers to donate their car for the research. The cars would be road tested as is, then the factory would completely overhaul the suspensions, then start the research.
Quite a few English enthusiast owners took advantage of this.
After driving the cars, as is, on the test track, almost all of them were judged to be "UNSAFE".
The owners, being enthusiasts, had felt their cars to be well maintained examples.........
Which leads me to this rant--
ALL of the cars that I have bought USED have needed some front end work. Every one.
A car with 29,000 miles, a car with 38,000 miles, 79,000 miles ==== junky front ends.
Even my 2003 Esprit with 8,500 miles on it had duff upper ball joints!

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by Moppie

Worked for Honda during the 90s......

Which leads back to my original question: Just who are these IDIOT consumers who would prefer, over a double wish-bone, suspensions that isolate them further from the roads and steer like crap?!

Here is a link to a page featuring a vehicle with Herald upright suspensions. http://www.spitfireart.com/suspension.html I did notice the coiled springs are at the equivalent of what would be 20deg SAI(!). Did that angle contribute to the forward stability of this setup?

[Black Lotus]

Not sure what you're getting at.
SAI means steering axis inclination. Or in LotusSpeak-swivel axis inclination.
It's a line drawn (in the front suspension view) from the upper ball joint to lower ball joint- and its relationship in degrees to true vertical.
It shows (in the front view again) how this line intersects the ground plane and the relationship with (distance from) the center of the contact patch of the tire. The distance is "scrub radius".
SAI will, when the wheel and hub assy rotates forward around the axis, cause the centerline of the wheel to translate down, which forces the front of the car up on that side. Since gravity resists this, it will try to restore the wheels to straight ahead.
I would say that the pictures at that site show that the individual the fabbed the suspension moved the lower locating point of the spring as close to the lower ball joint as he dared--which is good.
Then located the upper point to the first convinient place, on the chassis.
The angle of the spring would show a slight decreasing rate with jounce (as opposed to rising rate) and wouldn't matter much, IMO.
Here is a pic of the front suspension of the last of the older Esprits built--like mine--notice the skinny front sway bar. There is no rear bar.
Front vu, Oblique vu, underside vu, inboard view. Probably doesn't look much like a Herald 'tho.