Multiple Unfixable Problems! charging/tranny/too lean/etc.

[farns]

Good morning all, I'm new to the forum as a poster, but have been reading this and other forums off and on over the past 2 years, and they have been very very useful to me.

I'm chasing a herd of problems right now, for several months, and am really starting to lose my ability to think through all this. The more I read, the more frustrated I get at not understanding it.

[edited to add... 2002 Windstar, 150,000 miles, I think it's the 3.8li, but I don't know for sure.]

For two years now, we've had the ever-abundant 0171/0174 banks 1 and 2 too lean codes. We've taken it several places, and best we can get is about 2 months before it comes back, so we hurry and get emissions done then. Then it's right back again. But let's come back to this, it's the lesser of the 3 evils right now...

For several months, I have been dealing with "Check Charging System" and "Check Transmission" errors. They do not seem to be connected (meaning I don't have a charging system error and then immediately a tranny error). The tranny only throws errors every 20 minutes or so, while the check charging error pops up off an on, no pattern. Sometimes every couple minutes, sometimes once every 10 or so. Can't see a pattern. When CCS goes off, I lose the LCD message screen, and sometimes my dash lights, but I don't see any loss in power, I never lose my lights, there's nothing like a "brown out" as I would describe it. Does seem to happen more when it's cold first thing in the morning, but that's not always the case.

For the CCS error, I replaced the alternator with a new Remmy from autozone. Didn't fix it. The battery tested OK, but to rule it out we replaced it too. Didn't fix it. Autozone warrantied out the alternator and we tried a 2nd one. So new alternator and new battery in the same day. Still didn't fix it. It's not caused us any problems (like stalling out or can't start), but it's just annoying to have that thing going off all the time.

Now to the tranny. The tranny was a total rebuild 2 years ago when we first bought the van. This summer, on a road trip climbing some real steep hills, we got the check tranny message. Checked fluids, made some phone calls for advice, and then went on our way. Everything fine. Coming back from the trip, same thing, but then climbing the one last steep hill out of the valley, message changed to "tranny overheated". So we pulled off at the top, and sure enough, smoke or steam was coming out of the trans fluid nozzle there under the hood. Smelled like burned oil, was a bit nervous. Let it cool off, took it easy into the enxt town, and had a trans shop look at it. Codes said the torque converter was bad. He said we could keep it below 55 and drive the last hour home and deal with it at our own shop just fine, which we did. Our shop warrantied everything, and replaced the TC at no charge to us, so that's awesome.

Through the next few months, we saw no improvement. We'd still get the CT error, but never the overheating one... we took it back to the shop again and again and again, and they've replaced valves, a valve body, two more torque converters, and who knows what else. I know the last trip in they just said screw it and tore everything out, and put in a whole new tranny. Still behaves the same way, like nothing's been done. Everytime they've pulled it apart, they see no damage, no burned parts, no burned fluid, they can't see a thing wrong with it. They're into this probably 100 hours in labor, and who knows how many thousands in parts.

I thought maybe then a computer might be the issue, and causing both problems. I took it to ford dealership, and said the computer checks out fine, but they did see codes for the above transmission problems as well as the too lean engine codes. They told me they needed to fix both of those before they could see what else was wrong.

The bottom line is, none of these seem to be threatening the safety of the van, it appears that I'm not going to burn up the tranny at least, but I just don't know... is there a bigger problem here, and all these other things are just symptoms? I can't wrap my finger around the problem, and that's what's bugging me. And now I'm on the recall list for a potentially cracked axle, so on January 4th I'll find out about that I guess....

Anybody seen such a bevy of big problems all rolled in together like this?

Thanks!

Farns

[wiswind]

For the charging message, I would check all the connections.....at both ends of the battery cables.
Also check the ground connections and the connections on the power distribution box.
You might also look into the PCM power relay.
A low voltage going to the sensors and/or PCM can cause all kinds of strange problems.
I would look into the voltage issue FIRST.

Lean codes are most often caused by a vaccum leak.
One thing might be the isolator bolts for the upper intake manifold.
Check the hoses for the fuel pressure regulator and the PCV valve.
I would also verify the crankcase breather line that goes from the rear valve cover (1999 and newer) to the big flex hose that connects to the throttle body.
Also look over this flex hose that connects between the throttle body and the air filter box.
Also, I would look at the IMRC actuators, on the 1999 and newer, they use 1 electric actuator to drive the IMRC shafts.
There are nylon clips that connect the shafts to the actuator, these clips are known for breaking and/or falling off, leaving the actuator shafts to flop about at random.

Transmission, I am sure that the shop is reading the codes that are present when the transmission light comes on.
One thing that is a common failure item is the Transmission Range Sensor, aka Neutral Safety switch.
I would also ask the shop to verify that you have proper fluid flow through the transmission cooler.....it can become clogged when a transmission fails, causing the transmission to overheat due to lack of cooling.

[farns]

We've been checking the wires with a voltmeter, and haven't found anything showing bad yet, but I found a post where they talked about checking all the fuses and stuff too, so I can study up on that and give it a try. I took it to an "electrical specialist" I was referred to, and he couldn't find anything wrong. Yet I get the warnings. So I keep going back to the computer in my mind.

What repair manual would you recommend to help me find these parts so I can test them? PCM, etc., I'm stepping way out of my comfort zone at this point, but I feel I need to try and understand the problem better, maybe I'm giving incomplete information to the mechanics, which is hindering their efforts.

I'll see what I can figure out on the vacuum leak as well. I've read tons about this, but haven't tried much because again it's out of my league. But perhaps with a good manual showing me where to poke and prod, I might have some luck.

One other quick question I have about the computer... There's more than one right? Like a main one, one for auxiliary systems, etc., isn't there? I mean, if it's a bad computer, I have to figure out which computer is bad right? Or is there just one?

I see lots of them on eBay, like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-...Q5fAccessories

But they all look different, so I"m not sure what I"m looking at. I just wonder if it's worth $80 to try it out, or if its' even something a guy can just swap out like that. Anybody have thoughts on that?

[mark_gober]

Originally Posted by farns

We've been checking the wires with a voltmeter, and haven't found anything showing bad yet, but I found a post where they talked about checking all the fuses and stuff too, so I can study up on that and give it a try. I took it to an "electrical specialist" I was referred to, and he couldn't find anything wrong. Yet I get the warnings. So I keep going back to the computer in my mind.

What repair manual would you recommend to help me find these parts so I can test them? PCM, etc., I'm stepping way out of my comfort zone at this point, but I feel I need to try and understand the problem better, maybe I'm giving incomplete information to the mechanics, which is hindering their efforts.

I'll see what I can figure out on the vacuum leak as well. I've read tons about this, but haven't tried much because again it's out of my league. But perhaps with a good manual showing me where to poke and prod, I might have some luck.

One other quick question I have about the computer... There's more than one right? Like a main one, one for auxiliary systems, etc., isn't there? I mean, if it's a bad computer, I have to figure out which computer is bad right? Or is there just one?

I see lots of them on eBay, like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-...Q5fAccessories

But they all look different, so I"m not sure what I"m looking at. I just wonder if it's worth $80 to try it out, or if its' even something a guy can just swap out like that. Anybody have thoughts on that?

Your Windstar has three computers. One is the PCM. This is the main computer and runs the engine. You have a front electronics module and a rear electronics module. (FEM and REM). The FEM controls things like the front windows, radio, instrument panel, radio, door dinger, etc. The REM controls the fuel pump, the rear door hatch, the sliding door, heater etc. I believe the tranny and engine are completely controlled by the PCM.

Mark.

P.S. If you purchase a new computer, it'll have to be reflashed at the dealer. I looked into it for a friend of mines Dodge Caravan and Dodge dealership charged $90 for the reflash. With the strange issues you are having, it might be worth your $90 for a reflash. (or whatever Ford charges). With my friend, we went to autocomputerexchange.com and they shipped us a "ready to install" PCM for $150. I've looked for my Windstar, but they aren't listed on their website. You might call them and see if they have any for your car in stock. It was well worth it to just plug and play.

[farns]

Originally Posted by mark_gober

P.S. If you purchase a new computer, it'll have to be reflashed at the dealer. I looked into it for a friend of mines Dodge Caravan and Dodge dealership charged $90 for the reflash. With the strange issues you are having, it might be worth your $90 for a reflash. (or whatever Ford charges). With my friend, we went to autocomputerexchange.com and they shipped us a "ready to install" PCM for $150. I've looked for my Windstar, but they aren't listed on their website. You might call them and see if they have any for your car in stock. It was well worth it to just plug and play.

So to be clear, are you saying get my current one reflashed instead of replacing it? or just that if I buy a used one I'll need to get it reflashed. Is there a good way to confirm that the computer is the problem aside from just the feeling that I'm connecting the dots to that end? I took it to the dealer a month or two ago, asking them specifically to diagnose the computer, to see if it needed to be replaced, and they charged me $100 for a diagnostic, which told me absolutely nothing. They were getting hydraulic errors for the tranny, and said they couldn't look into anything else until that error was resolved. They seemed unwilling to do what I asked them to do, probably because they see a truckload of repair revenue sitting in that transmission. I dunno. I have trust issues LOL.

[Franco2112]

Try this, it worked for my Ford Five Hundred. It was having transmission issues such as yours. Cleaned my throttle body using $10 throttle body cleaner and fixed the transmission issues. Your transmission and throttle body are very closely connected. Hope this helps.
Franco

[serge_saati]

Ok... For the charging indicator symptom: If you have a steady ~14.4V on your battery when engine is running, alternator is ok, so it's either a problem with your PCM or your instrument cluster circuit.

For the "check transmission", what are the specific codes that Ford retreive? Maybe you just need to reset/erase the codes and see if it comes back. Or maybe it's a bad TFS (trans fluid sensor). They can test your TFS, it's easy to test that.

You cannot test the PCM by yourself, it's too complicated and need special tool. Only your dealer can do it. If they said it's good, then it should be.

For the lean codes, in addition of Wiswind's advices I add only bad upper (and or lower) intake gasket manifold as other possible cause especially if both codes didn't appear in same time. If they did, don't consider them as main culpirit.

Just to be more accurate, there's 12 computers in this van:
-PCM
-FEM
-REM
-Instrument cluster IC
-remote keyless entry module - optional
-ABS control module
-cruise control module - optional
-driver seat module - optional
-Parking Aid Module - optional
-left power sliding door module - optional
-right power sliding door module - optional
-RCM (restraint control module) or airbags module

But like Mark Gober saids, the PCM is the only one that controls engine and trans systems.

[mark_gober]

Originally Posted by farns

So to be clear, are you saying get my current one reflashed instead of replacing it? or just that if I buy a used one I'll need to get it reflashed. Is there a good way to confirm that the computer is the problem aside from just the feeling that I'm connecting the dots to that end? I took it to the dealer a month or two ago, asking them specifically to diagnose the computer, to see if it needed to be replaced, and they charged me $100 for a diagnostic, which told me absolutely nothing. They were getting hydraulic errors for the tranny, and said they couldn't look into anything else until that error was resolved. They seemed unwilling to do what I asked them to do, probably because they see a truckload of repair revenue sitting in that transmission. I dunno. I have trust issues LOL.

My point was that either way...buying a new one or having yours reflashed, you're going to pay the $90. (unless of course, autocomputerexchange has yours in stock.) I was simply thinking that I might spend $90 to have it reflashed before I dropped $500 on a new computer.

Trust me, I'm in a similar position with being unable to extract codes right now. I'm trying to figure out what path I'm going to take on my van because the inspection is due in about 6 weeks. If they can't connect to the PC, it'll never pass inspection.

Mark

[farns]

Well, quick update... got my axle looked at yesterday, and dang... it was good enough to fix. Oh well LOL.

I did find the report that the dealer gave me from before when I paid them to diagnose the computer. I guess they didn't diagnose it at all, from what I can tell on this...

loosely paraphrased it reads:

PCM codes are 1283, 0741, PCM reading speed sensors, values are out of range. Torque Convert is slipping due to hydraulic problem, could be stemming from solonoid, valve body, stator input shaft. Problem is hydraulic, not electrical. Also has string of codes for different modules that were not related to this issue.

So after this diagnosis, my tranny guy replaced the entire valve body, still had check transmission errors. Took it back, and they replace the entire tranny as I'm sure I mentioned above. Driving it home from that surgery, warning came on again.

Do I take it back to the dealer and demand that they diagnose what I paid them to diagnose? I asked them to look at the computer, but it was throwing tranny codes so they stopped there it seemed. And I don't know what all the string of other codes for other modules means.

Not really sure what to do. Sigh.....

[serge_saati]

Ok if P0741 code and the Ford trans code (P1283) still stand, the transmission was not the issue. You really seem to have an issue with your PCM (computer).

Especially because you see string of other codes. When you see a lot of fuzzy codes thrown like crazy, it's mean that the PCM is bad. Come back to your dealer and ask a free replacement. If you discover that the old tranny was good, you can also pursuit Ford dealer in court if you wish.

A new PCM will probably also cure the charging indicator light symptom.

[farns]

See that's what I thought two months ago, was that the computer was wonky. Tranny might have never been the problem at all then, is what you're thinking? Just yesterday, the trans started slipping all over the place. It got scary for a couple minutes. But then it started behaving again.

So to clarify, you think I should look at replacing the PCM, not just getting it re-flashed?

Do you think that Ford would even consider doing either of those for free, when I didn't have the work on the tranny done there? I mean, how should I approach them about it? I did pay them $100 to diagnose it, and they didn't... but there should be some kind of test they can do to prove the computer's bad, right?

[serge_saati]

Ooops, sorry. I meant your trans shop, not Ford dealer.

Now because your trans has slipped yesterday, I would say that your new trans seems not good. Your trans shop should have take a look at it. And also replace the PCM. All for free. I think you have 2 issues.

[farns]

Ok gotcha. I maybe didn't mention this before, but the trans shop rebuilt my tranny about 2 years ago, it died right after I bought the van. When I called them this summer when things started acting up, I was impressed that they serviced it, replaced the torque converter, and did a full flush, additive, everything for free. It was technically past the 1 year warranty by a considerable distance, but they made the decision to do it for free because they stand by their work. Well, that of course ended up not being the problem, so since then, they have had my van like 6 or 7 times, for several days at a time, sometimes over a week even. I've lost count. Each time they'd do more parts and more parts, until on this last one, they just pulled everything and put everything new on it. (I'm sure it's not NEW, but reman type stuff?? but I don't know for sure) He hasn't charged me a dime for any of it. I feel horrible, because they've torn it apart several times, they've got to be into it thousands of dollars in parts and labor now. And they've done it all for free. So I don't feel like I could ask them for anything, you know? I'm trying to work up the courage to tell them the new tranny didn't change anything at all. But I do need to call them today and let them know.

We love our van, it could/should last us a very long time, if we can get these gremlins taken care of.

[serge_saati]

I understand.

For this question:

Originally Posted by farns

So to clarify, you think I should look at replacing the PCM, not just getting it re-flashed?

You need to replace it, not reflash. I forget this one.

[farns]

I called the local auto recyclers place up here that is like a junkyard, but they pull the parts and test them, and stock them on the shelves like a store. I've picked up a couple parts there for my F-150 and it's been pretty good, saved me a ton of money. He said they have PCMs, but that mine will have a number on it that he needs to tell me if he has the right one. I've looked under the hood, but can't see anything that looks like what I saw in the eBay picture I posted a few days ago... Does anybody have some pics (or could take some?) of their windstar, helping me locate the PCM? If I can buy a used one for a hudnred bucks and swap it myself, then I'm game to try it. But I was unclear about a previous response on this, something that made me think even if I bought a used one, that I"d still have to pay to have it reflashed. Is that accurate? I really really want to try dealing with the computer next, but don't have the money to do it through a dealer. Although I am going to call them today and find out how much it would cost, so I have a reference point to compare against.