2000 Windstar 3.8 engine

[drumcatjim]

Hi.
My name is Jim and I am new to the forum.
We have a 2000 Windstar 3.8 liter.
I joined because much of my research brought me to this informative site. My wife drives our 5 young children around in this van. I had obd codes 171 and 174 at 72K. I had the expensive repair done at the dealer for the isolator bolt TSB back in 2003. Now they came back on at about 125K. My local mechanic cleaned the MAF and the light came on about 200-300 miles later. It has been driven with light on for several months with no problems. However, I replaced the MAF sensor due to starting problems after my wife got stuck twice in 2 weeks after taking short trips. It would not start, or start, sputter and quit. It would then start up 30 minutes later and run perfect. I changed the fuel filter 16K miles ago. I erased the error code, so the light is not on now, but only driven 30 miles since replacing the MAF. The van runs very strong, but my wife said this morning it starting chocking and almost quit while idling to pick up a friend, but she continued on with no problem. Worried about safety during upcoming freezing temperatures. The only other thing I've noticed is some possible pulley noise, and a friend said it sounds like a water pump is going out. Any input would be appreciated.
Jim

[wiswind]

One thing that is a common cause for your problem is the fuel pump.
It can become intermittent.
Replacing the fuel filter was a very good move because it is down under the vehicle and easy to forget.
However, as it becomes clogged with "stuff" it will restrict the flow of fuel, causing your fuel pump to have to work harder.

The first thing to try relative to the fuel pump would be the fuel pump relay, because it is easy and cheap.
You could have the fuel pressure checked, although good fuel pressure is no certainty that the fuel pump is not intermittently failing.

Another thing would be the button in the jack compartment, which is on the fuel pump interrupter.
In the event of a crash, it trips and stops power from reaching the fuel pump, so that it does not continue to pump fuel into a crashed motor.
This unit has been reported to cause some issues, but not very often.

The fuel pump itself can be the whole cause of the problem, and very often is the cause.
However, it is located inside the fuel tank.
The fuel tank must be removed from the vehicle to access the fuel pump.
Not the end of the world, but more expensive and difficult than the relay.

You will NOT get a code in the computer telling you that the fuel pressure or flow is low.
There are no sensors to monitor fuel pressure or flow.

It is VERY unlikely that your problem is being caused by one or more of the oxygen sensors.

Another possible cause is the coil pack, which powers the spark plugs.

One other thing to check over is for any signs of a defective vaccum line, including the big one that goes to the power brake booster and the one that goes to the PCV valve.
On the 1999 and newer 3.8L windstar, the PCV valve is located in the front valve cover.

[drumcatjim]

Thanks Wiswind for the great info. My Haynes book says replace fuel filter every 15K or 12 months. I replaced it 16K miles back. Maybe I should try the fuel filter and fuel pump relay and see what happens. My wife runs the Windstar low on fuel often.
jim

[joeuser742]

I noticed that you said there is a noise, coming from around the water pump... If it is a squeal, then that would be the cam synchronizer. It also drives the oil pump. Do a search on youtube for windstar cam synchronizer, sometimes it gets so bad that the van will want to die out.

[drumcatjim]

thanks for the info. The sound from the water pump/ or pulley areas is a low tone rattle. The other thing I am wondering is that the battery is more than 5 years old and has lower than normal voltage, but not super low. (it cranks good) Could that cause the fuel pump to act up?

[wiswind]

Yes, a weak battery with a slightly low voltage can cause the problem.
Also clean the battery terminal connections and make sure they are tight.

There are a lot of rattles that one can get around the water pump.
The serpentine belt is driving a lot of things
One thing that I have done to try to track down sounds at that end of the motor is to remove the serpentine belt and start the motor......just run it for no more than 60 seconds.......to listen to see if the sound is still there or is not there.
If the sound is still there, then it is not something that is being driven by the belt.
If the sound is not there, then it is something being driven by the belt.
Make sure that you have a diagram of the correct belt routing before you remove the belt, there should be a diagram on the underside of the hood.
Remember, smooth side of belt goes against a smooth pulley only.
Grooved side of belt goes against a grooved pulley only.

Also make sure that the belt is tight....if it is not tight, then the tensioner could be getting weak.

I got groaning sounds in there several times, first time was the bearing in the idler pulley, 2nd time was the bearing in the tensioner pulley (the tensioner was fine, just the pulley needed to be replaced).

I have also gotten some rattle sound from time to time from the A/C compressor pulley/clutch.
Fortunately, it was very intermittent....and never stayed very long.......

Any oil or grease on the serpentine belt can cause it to fail.

[drumcatjim]

Help!
Well, it's been awhile since I posted my problem with the van not starting sometimes and leaving my wife stuck on the road.
she got towed home today and now the van starts again, and runs fine. Earlier today it would start and cough and choke and shake so bad that it had to be towed. This has happened before, then after about an hour, the van starts. I thought the starting problem may have been the fuel pump acting up intermittently , but I had a week battery and replaced the battery. I have been running the van with the emissions light on and codes 171 and 174 banks 1 and 2 lean. I had this problem fixed at the dealer at 72000 miles. the van has 128000 miles now. I replaced the MAS sensor and erased the code. It came back about 50 miles and is on again. The van has run for several months with the light on.
Any helpful info would be appreciated!

[joeuser742]

This could be many things. I would check the coilpack. Take it off and see if has some cracks in it. If it does, change it. Could also be an injector going bad.
Now that I think about it, those codes point to the EGR system. maybe there is something going on with the egr valve, making the van run like crap.

[Off_Timing]

Bad gas maybe? Water in the tank?

[joeuser742]

Originally Posted by Off_Timing

Bad gas maybe? Water in the tank?

Yes, could be that also. I was getting the p171 and p174 codes on my 99. I went to a different gas station, the codes never came back. I also use 89 now, seems to have a little more power.

[12Ounce]

I agree, it could be several things. Its "difficult" to be motivated to correct codes ...or search out noises... when the vehicle is running well, but that's the wise time to correct.

The codes may not have anything to do with your immediate problem ... sounds as though the mechanic may not have done a thorough job ... or the bolts have failed again ... perhaps were not the new, "green", design. But you have more pressing issues now. (This is not an expensive repair if you do the work yourself.)

Not starting: Pretty simple to diagnose ... if you are there. Do you have fuel pressure on the fuel rail? Do you have voltage to the PCM? Both of these problems can be caused by relays getting a bit old and worn ... or low system voltage. You need a volt meter to check the "tops" of all fuses to answer these questions ... at the time it is not starting. Or, you could just renew the PCM power and fuel pump relays.... just as a start.

After that I suggest you find and correct that noise .... the "synchronizer" is a good guess.

[olopezm]

I would almost say it's the fuel pump, I had the same problem a few months ago, the van would suddenly stall or hesitate; after turning the engine off and on again it would be back to normal. Also had p0171 and p0174 codes. Check the test port (schrader valve) at the injectors fuel rail, it has a small black cap on it and is pointing toward the front of the engine. Use a screwdriver and see if it sprays or jus drips fuel out of it. mine was only dripping. I know this test is not the best one since you might still get the fuel to spray but the fuel pump will fail after some minutes, however it will be a good place to start.

Best regards,

Oscar.

[drumcatjim]

Thannks to all! The van runs very strong. Only after shorts trips, sometimes the van will start, cough and choke (Really bad) then die out. After sitting for and hour or more, it will start up as if nothing ever happened. I think I will start with the coil pack, due to my limited mechanical skills. I am worried it may be the TBS issue for codes 171 and 174 again. Also, can a garage with diagnostics do better with checking the codes than i can with my cheap meter?

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by drumcatjim

Also, can a garage with diagnostics do better with checking the codes than i can with my cheap meter?

Negative, they might be able to read some live data from the sensors (which might not be your case), anything else will be the same as you are doing.

You might be able to rent a fuel pressure tester kit from the autoparts store and should be a good way to start. Check this images to know where the fuel pressure test port is:

Click on them for a larger version

Here's the test port with the plastic cap on it


Here's the same port from another view and with the cap removed, look for it under the DPFE sensor (that black box with the gray connector and two hoses coming out of it)


Fuel pressure spec:
key on: 35-45psi
idle: 28-45 psi
engine off after 5 minutes: 30-40psi

If you're still not comfortable with the fuel pressure kit, the quickest test you can do is SEE how much pressure comes out of the test port when the van is running OK: turn the key to the on position but DON'T start the engine and use a screwdriver to press the valve at the center of the port, be careful as fuel will spray out.

Then when the van starts running bad, repeat the test and see if there's any difference like fuel only dripping instead of being sprayed.

Do one more test also when the van is running bad (it might not help with the symptoms you're having, but it doesn't hurts to try); disconnect the harness to the MAF sensor, it's the only harness coming out after the air filter. If it starts running better, you've found your problem.

Best regards,

Oscar.

[drumcatjim]

The problem only happens about once every 2 weeks, giving me no time to check it while running bad. When it coughs and chokes it will not run then dies.