Frustrating start problem '98 3.0

[RaceOn]

I'm about at my wits end with this car. The problem is that it is very hard to start. I checked the fuel pressure and it was down to about 29#, so I replaced the fuel pump. No help. In the last year I have also replaced the battery, spark plugs, IAC valve and TPS. The engine turns over, however, I feel it does not turn over fast enough. If I persist in cranking it over, it will eventually start, but to me, that is just not right. I purchased the car new in late 1998 and right now it has only 76K on the odometer. The starter was replaced at about 50K.

This car has been a real source of frustration. Since I have owned it I have replaced all four struts, starter, alternator, water pump, heater core, ball joints plus the above mentioned items. Now it has a hard start problem. My wife drives the car back and forth to work and will use it to go shopping occasionally, so that is the reason for the low mileage. The car is garage kept, so it still looks like new, but it is terribly unreliable.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but like I said....I am at my wits end. Does anyone have any ideas on how to correct the hard starting issue?

Thanks,
Pat

[danielsatur]

The symptoms of a cold hard start is a bad, or dirty Massive Air Flow (MAF) sensor.
How old is the battery on this car?

[RaceOn]

Thanks for the reply. MAF Sensor was cleaned first week of October when I replaced IAC and TPS. Battery was new July 2009.

Pat

[danielsatur]

Even though the MAF sensor was cleaned, it could be still be bad without throwing a DTC.

If this car is setting around alot, it could have a battery drain!

Turn off all the bells & whistle off prior to start up ,so the alternator can put a charge on the battery during warm up, than turn off prior to destination, this will also buy a little more charging time.
The more time charging without the demand of power from accessories, you will have a much better battery.

[plymouthsrock]

If you feel it has a slow cranking problem, try boosting it with another battery. If this cures the issue, and it starts normally, then check that circuit (engine ground, starter circuit, etc.). If it still is stubborn to start (but cranks normally), it is probably fuel/ignition related. Is it only cold starts that are a problem?

[RaceOn]

This morning I checked the battery state before starting the car and the battery shows 12.55 volts, so the battery is in great shape. Last night I took the MAF sensor out and cleaned it with the appropriate cleaner. I also changed oil and filter, but that was only because it was just about due. While I was under there I checked connections at the starter, engine ground and battery posts and all was fine.

Went out this morning and cranked and cranked and finally after the third try, it started. I am so over this POS car!! And, yes, it still seems like it turns over too slow. I suppose I could put a new starter in this thing and see if that would turn it over faster and maybe help on start-up, but I'm sick of throwing good money after bad. So far, the only ones that are getting any satisfaction out of me owning this thing are the local auto parts stores. With only 76K on the speedometer this thing has cost me a small fortune, whereas my diesel, that has 278K, and my SUV that has 149K, just roll along with normal maintenance. I think it's time to just unload this lemon and move on.

Guys, thanks for all the suggestions thus far.

Pat

[RaceOn]

Originally Posted by plymouthsrock

If you feel it has a slow cranking problem, try boosting it with another battery. If this cures the issue, and it starts normally, then check that circuit (engine ground, starter circuit, etc.). If it still is stubborn to start (but cranks normally), it is probably fuel/ignition related. Is it only cold starts that are a problem?

I agree that it probably is fuel/ignition related, but I have replaced every filter and sensor in the fuel system, including the fuel pump, and can find nothing wrong with the ignition system, so where do I look next? I'm all ears, if someone has a suggestion, I'd love to hear it.

If by cold starts you mean after the car sit for a while, then yes, it usually only happens after the car sits for a while. That's what first led me to checking the fuel pressure and replacing the fuel pump. I still think that the problem is in the fuel system, but am tired of throwing parts at the problem.

Pat

[danielsatur]

Usually I don't throw parts at a car, because test's are so much cheaper.
A bad MAF sensor won't always throw a code.

During the cold engine start, the air/fuel mix must be right!
It's going tobe rich, because of a longer fuel pulse is needed, and the signal from the MAF sensor needs tobe correct for the Air/fuel mix.

Look at it like a chocking effect during a cold start, so your car can start.

[mechhound]

Have you checked the fuel pressure before trying to start it cold since you changed the fuel pump? I'm thinking maybe the fuel pressure regulator is letting the fuel pressure leak down over time. I would try turning the switch on and waiting a few seconds and turn the switch off and back on for a few more seconds, repeat this about ten times before trying to start the car.

[shorod]

Good idea on checking the fuel pressure. Was the fuel filter also changed when the pump was replaced? In the original post are you saying you replaced the fuel pump because in the process of looking for this same issue you found low fuel pressure and the new fuel pump did not make a noticeable improvement on the way the car starts?

-Rod

[RaceOn]

Originally Posted by mechhound

Have you checked the fuel pressure before trying to start it cold since you changed the fuel pump? I'm thinking maybe the fuel pressure regulator is letting the fuel pressure leak down over time. I would try turning the switch on and waiting a few seconds and turn the switch off and back on for a few more seconds, repeat this about ten times before trying to start the car.

I checked the fuel pressure after installing the new pump and it was right around 41 lbs., but I have not checked it before a cold start. That's a good idea and I will give it a try, because that seems to be what is actually happening.

Originally Posted by shorod

Good idea on checking the fuel pressure. Was the fuel filter also changed when the pump was replaced? In the original post are you saying you replaced the fuel pump because in the process of looking for this same issue you found low fuel pressure and the new fuel pump did not make a noticeable improvement on the way the car starts?
-Rod

Fuel pump and filter were changed at the same time, also washed out the fuel tank. Yes, I replaced the fuel pump and filter after I found that the pressure was too low, however, the hard start condition remained. No improvement. I will test fuel pressure after the car sits overnight and see if there is a pressure drop.

Thanks for the help guys,
Pat

[plymouthsrock]

Another possibility is carbon buildup on the intake valves. Before the era of detergent gasolines, this was much more prevalent. When cold, the carbon acts like a sponge, soaking up the fuel until saturated. If the car has done a lot of stop and go, it could be an issue. A cleaner (Seafoam?) might help, and probably wouldn't hurt, and is relatively cheap.

[serge_saati]

It really sound like a bad starter. These cars are know to have bad starter. In can fail in many way, but when starter motor's coil become too worn, it can loose power when starting, thus rotate the engine slower even with a new battery. Normally your engine should crank at least at 500 rpm. If it's lower, it's obvious that it will be longer to start. You can press on the gas to see if it helps.

[RaceOn]

Originally Posted by serge_saati

It really sound like a bad starter. These cars are know to have bad starter. In can fail in many way, but when starter motor's coil become too worn, it can loose power when starting, thus rotate the engine slower even with a new battery. Normally your engine should crank at least at 500 rpm. If it's lower, it's obvious that it will be longer to start. You can press on the gas to see if it helps.

Thanks for the tip. I too believe that my problem is starter related. In looking at the available starters, I see that many parts houses offer a PMGR starter as a replacement and would like to know if anyone has used one of those starters and what were the results? To me, this type of starter is what these vehicles need for additional power at start up. Anyone care to offer up a comment?

BTW, I did test fuel pressure after letting the car sit overnight and while the pressure did drop a few pounds, it was still in the 37-39 pound range in the morning. This leads me back to the starter as the problem.

Thanks,
Pat

[shorod]

You should not need a gear reduction starter for your car, especially in Georgia where it doesn't get all that cold.

The fuel pressure does seem to be holding well, I suggest you spend a bit more time on the starting system voltage before condemning the starter. Make sure the connections are clean and tight. A surface charge of 12.55Vdc doesn't necessarily indicate a good battery. What does the voltage on the cables (not on the battery terminals directly) drop to when the starter motor is engaged?

-Rod