"True Christian" denominations must teach True Christian doctrine.

[drunken monkey]

I'm still amused that CL8 insists that her chosen Church that goes by a particular version of the Bible (a later re-translated/edited version I should add) is the true version of Christianity whereas the Catholic Church is the one tainted by false doctrine and hence isn't true Christianity.

Akboss.
You seem like an intelligent fellow and one who would appreciate this.
I highly recommend a book called Zen and the Birds of Appetite.
It was written by a man called Thomas Merton who was a (Catholic) Trappist monk who had a personal interest in how one relates/worships God and how that relates to being human.
The last time I looked, the little book costs less than $10.

As a related subject on how one behaves as a true Christian, it is worth reading on the history and philosophy of the Desert Fathers as that is one subject that Thomas Merton felt particulary close to.

[akboss]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

I'm still amused that CL8 insists that her chosen Church that goes by a particular version of the Bible (a later re-translated/edited version I should add) is the true version of Christianity whereas the Catholic Church is the one tainted by false doctrine and hence isn't true Christianity.

Akboss.
You seem like an intelligent fellow and one who would appreciate this.
I highly recommend a book called Zen and the Birds of Appetite.
It was written by a man called Thomas Merton who was a (Catholic) Trappist monk who had a personal interest in how one relates/worships God and how that relates to being human.
The last time I looked, the little book costs less than $10.

As a related subject on how one behaves as a true Christian, it is worth reading on the history and philosophy of the Desert Fathers as that is one subject that Thomas Merton felt particulary close to.

Sounds like some interesting reads - the physical and emotional relationship of worship would be an interesting topic, something that is most often left out of religious books for a focus on the grander subject of the worship itself. I wish I had more time to read - our culture is just pummeled with 'easier' methods to obtain information, reading is a lost art and I'm as guilty as any of avoiding it.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Why is it that I ask you to qualify your statement, you ask me to first disprove you?

In any case, any elected official is elected to serve the people.
Sometimes that may mean doing something they don't agree with 100% if it is benefitial to the people.
If it is totally against their beliefs, they can vote against any proposal.
That is how government works.
I'm surprised that as a citizen of a democratic country failed to grasp that basic concept.

I didn't fail to grasp any concept. DM, you agree with me by admitting a leader can vote against a proposal because of his BELIEFS.

Making proposals that may go against their personal beliefs does not affect how they practice their day to day life.
If they cannot seperate their personsal lives and the lives of people they iare supposed to be responsible for, then how a good a leader are they really?

It is a very bad leader who will go against his beliefs. President Obama CLAIMS to have Christian beliefs, but he doesn't lead by them and he is destroying the U.S.

Let's go back to Thomas Jefferson, a founding father of your nation.
He was, as was most people of his time, a religious person.
He was also a leader of your country.
He was the principle author of the Declaration of Independence.
He saw the importance of seperating religion from government.

Baptists, which I am, also believe in separation of religion from government, like Jefferson, we believe no law should be made restricting our freedom of practicing our Christian religion.

Finally.
"Love thy neighbour" was something that Confucius said 500 years before Christ was supposed to have been around.
Loving God has nothing to do with whether or not Christianity is good or evil.
After all, you seem to forget again that in the Bible, God has a habit of smiting those that don't love him.

Jesus was around when the earth was created, that is well before Confucius. Christ created confucius!

Humanity has a habit of clinging to everything that is against God and Christianity!

[MagicRat]

I'm sorry if this is harsh, CL8, this is one of those times when I simply cannot see you go unchallenged.

Originally Posted by CL8

.Jesus was around when the earth was created, that is well before Confucius. Christ created confucius!

CL8, claiming that your god is magical and thus can do anything grows tiresome and makes for a poor argument. Again, I'm an atheist, and even I can see how your religion makes your claim ludicrous and false, even by the most liberal biblical standards.

1. Confucianism's origin is well-documented and is approx. 500 years older than Christ. He can't create anything if he was not in existence.

2. Your theology spends a great deal of effort claiming that Jesus was born, and started his religious teachings in his lifetime..... again, 500 years after the start of Confucianism. Claiming that Jesus was around since the dawn of time is patently ridiculous; it goes against your bible and the tenants of a monotheistic religions. (You don't worship TWO gods, do you?)

3. Confucianism is, in many ways the antithesis of biblical teachings.
The bible is packed full of rules enforced by punitive measures, that is, punishment (aka. hell) is metered out for alleged wrongdoing, and a reward (eternal salvation) is granted for supposedly getting things right.
These measures are handed out by an external force (aka your god)

Confucianism teaches that one morality and virtuous, responsible behavior comes from within one's person, and does not stem from any external being (like a god), nor is it directly responsible to any external being..... and therefore has an entirely different structure than christianity.

Therefore, Confucianism directly challenges and opposes the authority and role of your christian god and your christian laws. There is absolutely no way that jesus could ever have created a philosophy and set of principles like Confucianism that so directly refutes the basic role of the christian god and bible like this. It makes no sense. The bible is packed full of tales of doom and woe that will fall upon the non-believers. How can you claim that Confucianism is an exception?

I like Confucianism for these reasons; it's an ancient, respectable philosophy and set of principles that has established itself free of the polluting influences of middle-eastern religious dogma....... and thus proves that god did not create anything and everything as the bible claims. Very refreshing!!

Originally Posted by CL8

Humanity has a habit of clinging to everything that is against God and Christianity!

Well, that is because much of humanity can see that christianity is a mass of jumbled contradictions, illogic, unsubstantiated claims and patently false allegations. For these reasons, much of humanity reaches the same conclusion that I do.... that god simply does not exist, except in the minds of the delusional believers.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

I'm sorry if this is harsh, CL8, this is one of those times when I simply cannot see you go unchallenged.


CL8, claiming that your god is magical and thus can do anything grows tiresome and makes for a poor argument. Again, I'm an atheist, and even I can see how your religion makes your claim ludicrous and false, even by the most liberal biblical standards.

1. Confucianism's origin is well-documented and is approx. 500 years older than Christ. He can't create anything if he was not in existence.

MagicRat, you are just like the Pharisees in John 8:53-59.
They didn't understand that Christ was God come down in the flesh.

Thats why they argued Jesus couldn't have known Abraham, they believed Jesus only existed from the time he was born, the same thing you are arguing here. Yet Christ was in heaven before Abraham went to heaven!

it goes against your bible and the tenants of a monotheistic religions. (You don't worship TWO gods, do you?)

Here again you show a lack of understanding of bible doctrine. Christians worship ONE God, in Three persons. God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. All ONE God.

I like Confucianism for these reasons; it's an ancient, respectable philosophy and set of principles that has established itself free of the polluting influences of middle-eastern religious dogma....... and thus proves that god did not create anything and everything as the bible claims. Very refreshing!!

MR, saying that is like saying When one person gives an account of a driver in a car driving downhill in the left lane at 40mph and the car flipped over suddenly on it's own.
Then another guy gives an account saying "no" I was the driver, I was in the right lane driving downhill at 40mph , my car hit the curb and flipped over .
Then you say the account of the first driver proves the account of the second driver is false.

that makes no sense, and if anything the account of the second driver would prove the first account false since he claims to have been the driver of the car!

[drunken monkey]

link

Originally Posted by CL8

I didn't fail to grasp any concept. DM, you agree with me by admitting a leader can vote against a proposal because of his BELIEFS.It is a very bad leader who will go against his beliefs.

Voting for/against something is not the same as drafting bills/policies based on what may be anachronistic religious ideals/principles/teachings.
A religious person voting against something that he doesn't agree with on a religious basis is not neccessarily the same as voting against something for the benefit of the people.
Isn't a bad leader also someone who ignores the wishes of his people?

So explain to me how a polictial leader who proposes policies based on his personal religious beliefs that his people may not share not imposing his religion on others?

Originally Posted by CL8

President Obama CLAIMS to have Christian beliefs, but he doesn't lead by them and he is destroying the U.S.

how?

Originally Posted by CL8

Baptists, which I am, also believe in separation of religion from government

So why did you go on about your founding fathers talking about government and religion and insinuating (incorrectly in the case of Jefferson) that they all thought Christianity and your Government should be entwined?

Originally Posted by CL8

like Jefferson, we believe no law should be made restricting our freedom of practicing our Christian religion.

Again with the double standard.
So why is it that you are allowed to condemn others for not following your particular brand of Christianity?
i.e why are you allowed to restrict the freedom of others to practice their religion?

Originally Posted by CL8

Christ created confucius!

Seeing as you like to use the Bible as your source for "facts", please show me where in the Bible this is said.

Originally Posted by CL8

Humanity has a habit of clinging to everything that is against God and Christianity!

Right.
How about you explain what you mean by this?
I'm sure when it is shouted with authority amongst a congregation it gets a nice reaction but we are not all Christians let alone Baptists so excuse me for not simply repling with an "Amen!!!!!" whilst I stand waving my hands/fists around.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

link




Voting for/against something is not the same as drafting bills/policies based on what may be anachronistic religious ideals/principles/teachings.

The U.S. congress and the justices in the courts do this all the time. The problem is it's too often from their immoral beliefs, not moral beliefs

A religious person voting against something that he doesn't agree with on a religious basis is not neccessarily the same as voting against something for the benefit of the people.

And how do THEY decide it is for the "benefit" of the people? Through their BELIEFS!

Isn't a bad leader also someone who ignores the wishes of his people?

It depends on if the wishes of his people are right or wrong.

So explain to me how a polictial leader who proposes policies based on his personal religious beliefs that his people may not share not imposing his religion on others?

Proposing a law for stricter prison sentences on rapists comes from a leaders belief that rape is wrong and immoral, but that isn't forcing other people to believe the same way. (although that is a very sick and miserable society that believes nothing is wrong with rape)

how?

I guess living in the U.K. it's difficult to see the harm Obama is causing. He is destroying our economy (and he knows he is, and he wants to) By over spending in the trillions of dollars, money the U.S. and it's citizens don't have, and he is taking away our freedoms that our nation was built on in the process by trying to force us into a health care system that is inadequate and will eventually limit what medical treatment we CAN have.

So why did you go on about your founding fathers talking about government and religion and insinuating (incorrectly in the case of Jefferson) that they all thought Christianity and your Government should be entwined?

What you are missing is that they wanted no LAWS regulating the church and ones freedom of religion (mandating what church you can attend, etc.) But they all agreed leaders must have a core set of religious, BIBLICAL principles in order to govern rightly. This is as true about leaders as the fact that 2+2=4.

Again with the double standard.
So why is it that you are allowed to condemn others for not following your particular brand of Christianity?
i.e why are you allowed to restrict the freedom of others to practice their religion?

This is a false statement. Christians, especially in America, are NOT allowed to restrict others freedom to practice their religion.

Seeing as you like to use the Bible as your source for "facts", please show me where in the Bible this is said.

John 1:3 "All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made."
All of John Ch 1 shows Christ as God and creator.

Right.
How about you explain what you mean by this?
I'm sure when it is shouted with authority amongst a congregation it gets a nice reaction but we are not all Christians let alone Baptists so excuse me for not simply repling with an "Amen!!!!!" whilst I stand waving my hands/fists around.

I mean until God changes the heart of a person, they live for things that are against God (drinking, drunkenness, promiscuity, greed, worldliness etc.)

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by CL8

The U.S. congress and the justices in the courts do this all the time. The problem is it's too often from their immoral beliefs, not moral beliefs

a baseless statement.
plese show me policies and bills that have been submitted based on immoral beliefs.

Originally Posted by CL8

And how do THEY decide it is for the "benefit" of the people? Through their BELIEFS!

the Bible is not neccessary for making good decisions.
In some cases, it can be argued that the Bible is the cause of some potentially bad ones.

Originally Posted by CL8

Proposing a law for stricter prison sentences on rapists comes from a leaders belief that rape is wrong and immoral, but that isn't forcing other people to believe the same way. (although that is a very sick and miserable society that believes nothing is wrong with rape)

what?
please show me what political figures have ever said that rape is not wrong and immoral?
besides, as before, the belief that rape is wrong and immoral does not stem from the Bible, a book that has illustrated God as a figure who permits his people to rape the women of nations they have "conquered".

Originally Posted by CL8

I guess living in the U.K. it's difficult to see the harm Obama is causing. He is destroying our economy (and he knows he is, and he wants to) By over spending in the trillions of dollars, money the U.S. and it's citizens don't have, and he is taking away our freedoms that our nation was built on in the process by trying to force us into a health care system that is inadequate and will eventually limit what medical treatment we CAN have.

what you to forget is why your country is in debt in the first place but I forgot that you are possibly not the best person to talk to regarding economics.

as for the health care system.
how does having a health care system limit what treatment you can have?
in case you missed it, as you obviously have, having no health care system already limits what medical you can have.
here's a little question; how much would it cost you to have something simple like a broken arm treated?
answer that and I'll tell you how much it'll cost me then we can discuss which of us has limits on what medical treatment is available to us.

Originally Posted by CL8

What you are missing is that they wanted no LAWS regulating the church and ones freedom of religion (mandating what church you can attend, etc.) But they all agreed leaders must have a core set of religious, BIBLICAL principles in order to govern rightly. This is as true about leaders as the fact that 2+2=4.

again, you miss the point that they were Christians but anyway, does this mow mean you're changing your original point that the founding fathers said that governments should be Christian?

Originally Posted by CL8

This is as true about leaders as the fact that 2+2=4.This is a false statement. Christians, especially in America, are NOT allowed to restrict others freedom to practice their religion.

sorry but the way I see it, if a person is telling others that their religion is wrong and that they should convert to their own brand of religion; then that person is trying to restrict the freedom of others to practice their religion.

Originally Posted by CL8

John 1:3 "All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made."
All of John Ch 1 shows Christ as God and creator.I mean until God changes the heart of a person, they live for things that are against God (drinking, drunkenness, promiscuity, greed, worldliness etc.)

So by that rationale, God/Jesus is also responsible for Hilter, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il, Slobodan Milošević as well as every other evil and murderous individual throughout history.
Oh wait, God/Jesus is only responsible for the the good people throughout history because God changes the heart of a person.
Oh wait, Confucius wasn't a Christian because Christianity didn't exist when he was alive and he didn't even believe in your God and yet you claim that he was a product of your God. Doesn't that then mean you don't need to be Christian or even believe in a single God because Confucius being a man of his time in China certainly didn't believe in a single God.
Why thank you CL8 for finally agreeing with me.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by CL8

!Here again you show a lack of understanding of bible doctrine. Christians worship ONE God, in Three persons. God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. All ONE God.

Well, now that you bring it up, this concept is contradictory, and makes no sense. This 'doctrine' was invented up by humans to reconcile one of the most glaring flaws of the bible and tenants of worship.

Obviously, christians worship more than one god. Christianity is a de-facto polythiestic religion, and god is not the one and only religious authority.

Christians often make a distinction between worshiping Jesus and worshiping god just by the act of worship. Indeed, Catholics have long made it a policy where one can worship and/or pray to ordained saints,the holy ghost, mother Mary, angels, some dead people, and their icons, such as statues and holy places.

For some reason, christians feel polytheism is wrong and came up with the holy trinity, 3-as-one nonsense to make themselves feel better. Obviously this 'doctrine does not hold water, for these logical reasons.

1. The holy trinity does not include all the saints, angels etc that are also worshiped regularly.

2. Religious doctrine says (over and over again) that 'Jesus died for your sins'. How can Jesus die, if he is really part of god and thus is still alive? Did the bible lie about his death?

3. How are we supposed to believe that jesus made any kind of a sacrifice to die for us, if he was part of god and incapable of dying? Why should we be made to feel bad or learn from a death that either never happened, or did not matter since he is really part of god?

4. For that matter, how can we accept that jesus really was 'born' if he was part of god. The concept of being 'born' implies the beginning as a separate and distinctive individual...... a concept which is cannot exist if he is part of god.

Again, as I have said many times, this is yet another example of the extensive and contradictory nature of the bible and christianity as a whole. As soon as one starts to apply logic and reason to christian principles and arguments, the entire fabric of the religion falls apart like a wet newspaper.
Really, christian theology is a thorough insult to the intelligence of any reasonable, rational individual.

[akboss]

CL8, have you ever heard of Ravi Zacharias? Excellent speaker! If you haven't heard him, watch any of his videos online - a professor of philosophy and a supremely eloquent speaker, it's a joy to hear him speak on the matters of God and the journey each of us takes in this world.

MR and DM, with all due respect, you will continue to misunderstand the gospel until you open your eyes not only to how God is real, but how real it is that we need him. A world without God is no world at all, I only pray that you could see that.

[CL8]

Thanks Akboss!

I have been quite busy lately. The busier season for student drivers is here, so I have had more students on my schedule.


DMs' request:

plese show me policies and bills that have been submitted based on immoral beliefs

.
This is easy! Roe vs Wade, 1973

I found this gem of an example from the U.K.!
Most of it is on the assisted suicide (immoral, degrades human life)

and at the bottom one sentence stating parliament passed a bill
forcing public schools in the U.K. to PROMOTE homosexuality!

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/feb/10022506.html

quote from DM:

the Bible is not neccessary for making good decisions.
In some cases, it can be argued that the Bible is the cause of some potentially bad ones.

Not according to the first president of the United states.
He said "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"

Give examples of the bible being the cause of bad decisions
quote from DM:

the belief that rape is wrong and immoral does not stem from the Bible, a book that has illustrated God as a figure who permits his people to rape the women of nations they have "conquered".

DM, don't you enjoy the freedom to make choices, even if they are wrong and bad choices?
Permitting something and condoning it are separate issues.

again, you miss the point that they were Christians but anyway, does this mow mean you're changing your original point that the founding fathers said that governments should be Christian?

No. Thomas Jefferson never did come to believe Jesus was God the Son.
He was not Christian, but believed the Christian religion taught the best belief system.
They didn't believe "governments" should be Christian. They believed leaders should lead by Christian principles.

sorry but the way I see it, if a person is telling others that their religion is wrong and that they should convert to their own brand of religion; then that person is trying to restrict the freedom of others to practice their religion.

Just like if someone tells you buying more than you can afford to pay for on a credit card is wrong, is restricting ones freedom to max out their credit card limit?

[CL8]

1. The holy trinity does not include all the saints, angels etc that are also worshiped regularly.

MR, did you forget my posts on the FLAWED doctrines of Catholicism?

2. Religious doctrine says (over and over again) that 'Jesus died for your sins'. How can Jesus die, if he is really part of god and thus is still alive? Did the bible lie about his death?

Where in the bible does it say God cannot die?

3. How are we supposed to believe that jesus made any kind of a sacrifice to die for us, if he was part of god and incapable of dying? Why should we be made to feel bad or learn from a death that either never happened, or did not matter since he is really part of god?

Again you are presuming something that is not in the bible

4. For that matter, how can we accept that jesus really was 'born' if he was part of god. The concept of being 'born' implies the beginning as a separate and distinctive individual...... a concept which is cannot exist if he is part of god.

You can accept it by faith, if you wish,
implying is YOUR interpretation. It doesn't make it true.

Again, as I have said many times, this is yet another example of the extensive and contradictory nature of the bible and christianity as a whole. As soon as one starts to apply logic and reason to christian principles and arguments, the entire fabric of the religion falls apart like a wet newspaper.
Really, christian theology is a thorough insult to the intelligence of any reasonable, rational individual.

MagicRat, intelligence is YOUR god!

[CL8]

DM, do you know what British politician was responsible for abolishing slavery
in Brittan and what his background was?

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by CL8

DM, do you know what British politician was responsible for abolishing slavery
in Brittan and what his background was?

Do you really want to go into the whole slavery issue?
Here's a hint, seeing as you so like to use the founding fathers of your country as an example for Christianity; name the prominant members of that group who did not have slaves.

If anything, your example of a British politician being key in the abolition of slavery is more to do with him being British.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Do you really want to go into the whole slavery issue?
Here's a hint, seeing as you so like to use the founding fathers of your country as an example for Christianity; name the prominant members of that group who did not have slaves.

If anything, your example of a British politician being key in the abolition of slavery is more to do with him being British.

DM, why are you trying to change the point of my question?

The issue is what motivated the politician in the U.K. to seek to abolish slavery.
This is totally separate from what Americas founders did with slaves or slavery.

So do you not know the answer to my question?