"True Christian" denominations must teach True Christian doctrine.

[MagicRat]

A few points here. Akboss, please re-read my brief notion in altruism's role in evolution. It really does make sense. Humans have evolved to be largely cooperative and altruistic for common survival. It is not at all counter-intuitive to evolution as you say. It is also found in many places elsewhere in the animal world. Mother animals altruistically look after their offspring. Male animals protect their pack or herd. Many animals actively seek to live in packs or herds for mutual self-interest, because of evolutionary forces. Humans are socially more sophisticated so their altruism is similarly more spohisticated. But the forces which shape it are just the same.

Next, I still observe the both you and CL8 do not explicity defend the entire bible. The both of you, being decent people, still pick-and-choose what you want to believe in. While this is a good thing, imo, the both of you need not claim the bible is the source for your morality. It comes from within you, not from a god.

Indeed, as I have stated so many times, the bible and christianity has much evil in it, and many, many contradictions. IMO the both of you are far better than your religion.

Thomas Jefferson, Adams and Washington's statements of religion and the bible are fine from a personal opinion. But are they morally credible in the modern sense? Jefferson and Washington were slave-owners. (Not sure about Adams). Jefferson even had a slave mistress who bore him children. Some of their descendants today have been identified through genetic markers (PBS did a special on this a few years ago).

I am sure all the founding fathers were fine people and did many virtuous things. I have respect for their views on government, politics and philosophy. But their opinions and actions must be kept in context. I do not believe some have much credibility in terms of being moral compasses for modern times.

Case in point "The bible is the source of liberty". Really? For whom? His slaves? How about the slaves in the bible? How about women? How about those who worshipped other gods, or worshipped gods incorrectly? They were supposed to be killed by the righteous, according to bible law. If anything, the bible is the source of much oppression. The source of liberty are the people who fought the oppressors, (including some religious institutions) and the philosophers and statesmen who helped influence their actions.

But, just as modern society has moved beyond slave-ownership, it has also moved beyond the reliance of an obviously deeply -flawed bible as a moral compass for government. Indeed, the First Amendment very rationally put religion in its proper place, with respect to government. If I were to be a jerk, I would say the "GOD-given right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" extended only to land-owning white men. It took many post-First Amendment governments to extend those fundamental rights to everyone else.

EDIT:
The notion that Free-will exists for religious worship is patently absurd. The existence of Hell as a penalty for worshiping incorrectly, or not at all, and heaven as a bribe for doing it right, essentially removes any notion of 'free will'. It is the same as if I mugged you with a gun. I might say" give me your wallet. You have the free will not to give it to me, but I will kill you if you do not do as I say"
Free will is the ability to make choices without the threat of punishment of the allure of a reward. When these factors are brought into play, free will is rendered largely irrelevant.

Hmmm.... prison populations. CL8, how many convicts are Christian? I came across a source (cannot find it now) that 75% of convicts considered themselves to be Christian when they committed their crimes. As I have stated before, people are good or bad because of their nature, not their religion, or lack of it.

Now, much as I really enjoy debating the two of you, I will have to address the rest of this later. I have a job and a career, and I am in university. I have a big assignment for tomorrow (Saturday) and if I don't get back to studying, I will never pass. If I were inclined to pray, I would be doing so right now. But as a 'godless heathen', I had better learn the material!!

Cheers!

[akboss]

Hey good debates, and while we still maintain different sides of the fence on most of these issues, glad to bounce ideas back and forth. You really would get some consolation by reading into verses that seem to come across as encouraging slaves or demeaning women. As I broke down the verse so commonly used by feminists against the Bible, so all of these verses have a reason and a purpose that is not as grim as it first seems. Believe me, Christians struggle with these too, but that is what is so interesting, the challenge to understand God's word 'better'.

Good luck on your paper and studies!

I too must start getting some work done

All the best.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by akboss

I picked this bit out of your post, CL8, excellent phrasing and great point.

Thanks Akboss!

It's nice to see I'm not alone in my views here!

[CL8]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

So you'll recognise them as Christian and are allowed to contanimate Bible doctrine with man made laws and false doctrine as long as they still recognise Jesus?

Not necessarily "born-again", but "Christian" as the world defines Christian.

I would again say "contaminated" Christian.

(the Catholic doctrine, not the people in the catholic church)

[CL8]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

it's interesting that Jefferson was quoted because he also said this:

True to a point, just because you reject God Drunken Monkey, doesn't
mean I suffer because of it.

Now if your rejection of God causes you to embrace immoral acts like rape, and you rape me, then that would indirectly cause me harm from your unbelief.

[CL8]

Hmmm.... prison populations. CL8, how many convicts are Christian? I came across a source (cannot find it now) that 75% of convicts considered themselves to be Christian when they committed their crimes. As I have stated before, people are good or bad because of their nature, not their religion, or lack of it.

The point MR, was not how many Christians committed crimes and are in prison, the point, as you said below,
is that we humans "evolved" to be altruistic and good to each other.
If that statement was true then we should have far fewer inmates in our prisons, not overcrowding as we have.

So, humans have evolved to be altruistic and do not need a god to tell them to be so. All they need is a community which recognizes and ultimately, benefits from such behaviour.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by CL8

The point MR, was not how many Christians committed crimes and are in prison, the point, as you said below,
is that we humans "evolved" to be altruistic and good to each other.
If that statement was true then we should have far fewer inmates in our prisons, not overcrowding as we have.

Good point. But anthropologists have found that there is evidence that many fairly common human flaws actually provided primitive human societies and communities with survival benefits. Here are a few:

Sickle-cell anemia is common among those of African descent. It is a chronic and debilitating condition, but also provides protection against the malaria bacteria. So humans so afflicted had a survival benefit and the affliction survived today.

Color-blindness and dyslexia present problems in modern life. But they also bring about differing abilities. The color-blind have better vision for detecting camouflaged prey or predators. Also, they have been shown to have much greater visual acuity for seeing beige/brown/grey hues.

Dyslexics have differing abilities with spacial relationships and problem-solving which are an advantage in hunting prey or escaping predators.

Likewise, about 2% of humans display psychopathic and/or violent tendencies. It's been theorized that such people are terrible in peacetime, but make excellent soldiers and defenders of communities. So, these people also have evolved to exist in our communities, Unfortunately, unless we are actually at war, modern society does not have much place for them, so many end up as misfits, criminals and prisoners.

Please note that there are many, many social and legal factors that affect prison populations. The US has a much higher incarceration rate and violent crime rate (murders, gun crime etc) than most other developed western nations.
Nations like Norway have much less crime, and far fewer prisons, but are much less religious that the US. The reasons for this differing rates are vast and complex and cannot be overcome by religious enthusiasm.

But one common thread found in most American prisoners is...... that lack of an active, responsible father figure when the prisoners were growing up. Growing up without a decent father does not guarantee one becomes a criminal, but it sure increases the odds.

Frankly, imo, family responsibilities is one foundation of Christian principles. But,the US divorce rate is so high, as is desertion of the family by the father.This is all the more tragic when one considers how many Americans consider themselves to be christian. Therefore, imo, lots of Christians do not always follow christian family values when raising kids, to the detriment of the kids and society as a whole.

Originally Posted by CL8

MR, did you know that is what God wanted for his people the Israelites?

If you know O.T. history, you know shortly after the Israelites settled in the promised land, they begged for God to give them a king. God was displeased. He didn't want them to have an earthly king, he wanted them to worship and serve HIM as their king, individually obeying his laws as set forth in his word.
The system of government the U.S. still has today is about as close a form of government as you can get to that today. And several times in the declaration of independence there is reference to GOD giving people the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

This reminds me of a quote (I forget who it was) who was commenting on George Washington's autocratic style, in 1776. "I fear we have exchanged King George III for King George I
I think that you give far too much weight to this principle. Americans value religious freedom and separation of church and state too much to consider god to be a ruler or king of any kind, either metaphorically or literally.

IMO autocratic religious nations, like Saudi Arabia are much, much closer to this ideal. Remember, they believe their god is the same one as yours.

Originally Posted by CL8

I would love to see you attempt to explain what that passage says.

I am a woman and I am not offended that the bible states that the man was made to be the leader in a relationship with his wife.

Is the position of vice president in the U.S. an abusive or disgraceful position? I don't think anyone would say that. The woman is to be the "vice president" in her marriage, letting her husband have the final say.

My first thought when reading this is: "Will you marry me? Right now, my present wife is somewhat less agreeable."

Actually, it makes me a little sad. I respect your choice for your own well-being, but I sincerely believe this attitude should not be inflicted upon any other girl or woman. I am not saying that you would, but many religions do treat women as second-class. And this is wrong.

That biblical passage as referred above states the hierarchy is: god----> christ----> man---->woman. Many religions do this. We all know of Muslim sharia law, where women are officially undervalued. We all know of muslim and/or Arab traditions that seek to control women. There are thousands of examples.

But christianity is also so often patriarchal, both subtly and overtly. Biblical passages like this one, and others clearly show women's lower status in biblical law, thus giving misogynists ammunition for their attitudes. Also, christian religions discriminate overtly. Many hierarchical positions are reserved for men, either explicitly or implicitly, including popes, cardinals, bishops, priests and many ministers, reverends, etc.
This is wrong. It degrades women and affects peoples morals and values. It perpetuals the cultural and religious myth that women are worth less than men, and can accomplish less than men.
Most parents cognatively believe that such misogynistic beliefs are wrong and antiquated, and try not to perpetuate them...... which reinforces my belief that most people are better, more moral and more virtuous than organized religions like christianity (and, especially, Islam!)

[CL8]

Now, much as I really enjoy debating the two of you, I will have to address the rest of this later. I have a job and a career, and I am in university. I have a big assignment for tomorrow (Saturday) and if I don't get back to studying, I will never pass. If I were inclined to pray, I would be doing so right now. But as a 'godless heathen', I had better learn the material!!

So how did your assignment go, and is it the norm to have college classes on Saturday in Canada?

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Good point. But anthropologists have found that there is evidence that many fairly common human flaws actually provided primitive human societies and communities with survival benefits. Here are a few:

Sickle-cell anemia, Color-blindness, Dyslexics

(deleted details to save space)

How do you legitimately compare a trait you are born with to a choice to do right or wrong?

Likewise, about 2% of humans display psychopathic and/or violent tendencies. It's been theorized that such people are terrible in peacetime, but make excellent soldiers and defenders of communities. So, these people also have evolved to exist in our communities, Unfortunately, unless we are actually at war, modern society does not have much place for them, so many end up as misfits, criminals and prisoners.

You made your point well in the bolded statement

.

Frankly, imo, family responsibilities is one foundation of Christian principles. But,the US divorce rate is so high, as is desertion of the family by the father.This is all the more tragic when one considers how many Americans consider themselves to be christian. Therefore, imo, lots of Christians do not always follow christian family values when raising kids, to the detriment of the kids and society as a whole.

True, I agree

I think that you give far too much weight to this principle. Americans value religious freedom and separation of church and state too much to consider god to be a ruler or king of any kind, either metaphorically or literally.

What about God being mentioned in the declaration of Independence?
Every Christian believes Christ to be King of kings and Lord of lords.
I have often wondered what American Christians reaction to Christ setting up his kingdom on earth will be like.
They are so used to voting in their president, it might be hard for some to get used to a king ruling over them!

IMO autocratic religious nations, like Saudi Arabia are much, much closer to this ideal. Remember, they believe their god is the same one as yours.

I'm sure glad I don't live in Saudi Arabia, their women can't even legally drive there!

My first thought when reading this is: "Will you marry me? Right now, my present wife is somewhat less agreeable."

Some of the strongest marriages I've obsreved, including my parents, are ones where there is a lot of arguing!

Actually, it makes me a little sad. I respect your choice for your own well-being, but I sincerely believe this attitude should not be inflicted upon any other girl or woman. I am not saying that you would, but many religions do treat women as second-class. And this is wrong.

The same bible that says the head of the woman is the man also says the husband is to love and respect his wife.

But christianity is also so often patriarchal, both subtly and overtly. Biblical passages like this one, and others clearly show women's lower status in biblical law, thus giving misogynists ammunition for their attitudes.

Thats their wrong doing, not the bibles.

Also, christian religions discriminate overtly. Many hierarchical positions are reserved for men, either explicitly or implicitly, including popes, cardinals, bishops, priests and many ministers, reverends, etc.
This is wrong. It degrades women and affects peoples morals and values. It perpetuals the cultural and religious myth that women are worth less than men, and can accomplish less than men.

Are you familiar with Galations 3:28? It says "....there is neither male nor female: for ye are all ne in Christ Jesus."
Meaning the bible states women are worth the same as men in the eyes of God.

[drunken monkey]

You totally but not unexpectedly missed the point of that quote.

Originally Posted by Jefferson

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

i) legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurous to others.
ii) it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god.

in case you still don't understand; it is a statement that government is and should be seperate from religion.


And once again with the double standards.

Originally Posted by CL8

Thats their wrong doing, not the bibles.

Why is it when a Christian is bad, it is because of the person and not the Bible but when a Muslim is bad, it is because of Islam?

[DownToGround]

i would agree for the seperation.. what if all country's enforced religious beliefs on there public( and you didnt agree ).......its power.....for heiarchy, for the future

[CL8]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

You totally but not unexpectedly missed the point of that quote.



i) legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurous to others.
ii) it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god.

in case you still don't understand; it is a statement that government is and should be seperate from religion.

I fully understand that point, but what you DM, and most other left thinking people seem to believe
is that when a politician becomes an elected official, he/she must check their personal religious beliefs
at the door of their elected office an have NO religious beliefs.
Not only is that wrong, and taking away their religious freedom, but it is also impossible.
EVERY elected official WILL lead according to his beliefs (religious or not) whether you try to stop them or not.
This is not the same as forcing religious beliefs on others.

Why is it when a Christian is bad, it is because of the person and not the Bible but when a Muslim is bad, it is because of Islam?

Because Christianity is good and true, but Islam is evil and false.

[drunken monkey]

and so the circle continues with your answer returning to: 'because you say so'.

I can just easily say that Christianity is just as evil and false and only Taoism is good and true. Except I wouldn't add a smiley icon to show how pleased I am that I thought of such a smart reply.

Because i'm interested in hearing you explain it; why is an elected official making policies based on a religious belief not the same as imposing his religion on others?

For the record, I am actually sort of in agreement with you in that religion itself is neither good or bad; rather it is people who abuse it. That is true of any system of government or institution: there are always those who use their power and/or influence.
Mozilla/5.0 (SymbianOS/9.3; U; Series60/3.2 NokiaN96-1/3.00; Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 AppleWebKit/413 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/413

[CL8]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

and so the circle continues with your answer returning to: 'because you say so'.

I can just easily say that Christianity is just as evil and false and only Taoism is good and true. Except I wouldn't add a smiley icon to show how pleased I am that I thought of such a smart reply.

The two great commandments Christ himself stated "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart with all thy soul
with all thy strength and with all thy mind"
and to "Love thy neighbor as thyself" Shows that Christianity is good, not evil.
If everyone loved their neighbor as themself there would be no crime.

Because i'm interested in hearing you explain it; why is an elected official making policies based on a religious belief not the same as imposing his religion on others?

You explain to me how it is possible for anyone to make a personal leadership decision without doing it based on his beliefs
(religious or not), then I'll explain how it's not the same as imposing it on others.

[drunken monkey]

Why is it that I ask you to qualify your statement, you ask me to first disprove you?

In any case, any elected official is elected to serve the people.
Sometimes that may mean doing something they don't agree with 100% if it is benefitial to the people.
If it is totally against their beliefs, they can vote against any proposal.
That is how government works.
I'm surprised that as a citizen of a democratic country failed to grasp that basic concept.

Making proposals that may go against their personal beliefs does not affect how they practice their day to day life.
If they cannot seperate their personsal lives and the lives of people they iare supposed to be responsible for, then how a good a leader are they really?


Let's go back to Thomas Jefferson, a founding father of your nation.
He was, as was most people of his time, a religious person.
He was also a leader of your country.
He was the principle author of the Declaration of Independence.
He saw the importance of seperating religion from government.


Finally.
"Love thy neighbour" was something that Confucius said 500 years before Christ was supposed to have been around.
Loving God has nothing to do with whether or not Christianity is good or evil.
After all, you seem to forget again that in the Bible, God has a habit of smiting those that don't love him.

[akboss]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Why is it when a Christian is bad, it is because of the person and not the Bible but when a Muslim is bad, it is because of Islam?

This is a good question and a point that deserves attention. First off, I believe CL8 is right in her initial post that, as we are all sinful people, we will be reckless with God's word and from time to time, choose a path of corrupt nature. This is people willfully choosing to disregard the Bible, or are acting passionately on verses they do not understand. This is again my point of Christianity offering the freedom of choice. Thankfully, God tells us that if we approach him with a humble heart of honest repentance, he will forgive our sins. I'm just guessing what you're thinking at this point, 'so you can do anything you want and just ask for forgiveness and it's cool!?!?' No, no, no. That is why Jesus so often refers to the 'condition of your heart'. You can't fool God by saying "yep, I'm sorry alright, now let me keep beating my wife", or whatever it may be. God 'knows our heart' because that is a place where you can't lie - it's your gut feeling, your intent, the feelings only you (and God) know, and when that is full of regret and a desire to make things right, God offers his hand in forgiveness.

As with anything that has the capacity to transform lives, and countless Christians will give you examples of how it has, the Bible can be perversed to act out people's own agendas. Separating an atom is not inherently evil, in fact Nuclear technology is responsible for giving millions of people the electricity they use daily. But when it is used to create a weapon, it becomes evil. The Bible does contain power, the power to change lives, and people who use it as a weapon are taking it out of context, and using it to their personal advantage.

As for Islam, we must admit that generally Western Culture is fairly ignorant when it comes to our understanding of Muslim culture. Especially in the United States, and to a lesser extent Canada, the way news and media portray the Muslim community is largely what we understand. There are very few that care to distinguish extremists from the general public, and hence an innate resentment is born that is unfounded and irrational. It is this ignorance that creates the immediate answer you pose above, 'when a Muslim is bad, it is because of Islam'. There is a fearfully large number of people assume that Muslim culture breeds families of terrorists and extremists, even if in reality it is a small sect of the population. Judging all of one worldview, religion or culture by the extreme acts of one group is just plain foolish, no matter who we are talking about.