They want the world to believe THEY are peaceful...

[CL8]

The problem with "secular themes" is that the highest anyone is accountable to is a corrupt, at least imperfect human being. With religion (Christianity in particular) All people are accountable to a perfect and righteous God, who has the power to make ALL things right.

The problem with Islam is that their belief of God is not so holy, merciful or righteous.

[blazee]

Originally Posted by CL8

The problem with "secular themes" is that the highest anyone is accountable to is a corrupt, at least imperfect human being. With religion (Christianity in particular) All people are accountable to a perfect and righteous God, who has the power to make ALL things right.

The problem with Islam is that their belief of God is not so holy, merciful or righteous.

In other words... religious people (Christians in particular) are only good, if and when their fear of god makes them behave that way. Meanwhile, non religious people that treat others with love and generosity only do so because they are corrupt and imperfect.


I can see how it would be hard for a religious person to understand why someone would want to be a good person without being influenced by "god", but the fact of the matter is that the majority of non-religious people hold themselves to far higher moral standards than those that simply want to be good based on a belief that they will be rewarded in the afterlife.

[MagicRat]

^^I agree.

Originally Posted by CL8

The problem with "secular themes" is that the highest anyone is accountable to is a corrupt, at least imperfect human being. With religion (Christianity in particular) All people are accountable to a perfect and righteous God, who has the power to make ALL things right.

The problem with Islam is that their belief of God is not so holy, merciful or righteous.

The study of criminology and sociology is very complex. People, individuals and societies commit crimes and acts of corruption for many complex reasons. Being held accountable to god seems to be irrelevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminology
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Crime/BG1026.cfm

Frankly, your statements are contradictory. If god does have the power to make things right, why has he not done so?

Is he sadistic and enjoys people suffering? Is he waiting for us to fix the world ourselves? Is he unable to fix the world? Why does he permit religions to exist which are, as you say, not so holy, merciful or righteous?

If god is perfect, righteous and that powerful, then the world would have no problems. The fact that the world is imperfect means god is imperfect, unaccountable or weak or.... does not exist.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

^^I agree.


The study of criminology and sociology is very complex. People, individuals and societies commit crimes and acts of corruption for many complex reasons. Being held accountable to god seems to be irrelevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminology
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Crime/BG1026.cfm

Frankly, your statements are contradictory. If god does have the power to make things right, why has he not done so?

Is he sadistic and enjoys people suffering? Is he waiting for us to fix the world ourselves? Is he unable to fix the world? Why does he permit religions to exist which are, as you say, not so holy, merciful or righteous?

If god is perfect, righteous and that powerful, then the world would have no problems. The fact that the world is imperfect means god is imperfect, unaccountable or weak or.... does not exist.

MagicRat, the article you chose to reference from the heritage Foundation is spot on.
Did you read it all? The heritage Foundation is a very GOOD organization focusing on preserving the founding heritage of the U.S.

If you did read it you know it first stresses the importance of strong family relationships, especially the parent/child relationships. Including much love and affection.
It's no coincidence that the first institution enacted in the bible is the family (Adam and Eve)
Later WAAAAYY down in the article it points out how religious ethics and church is important to prevent delinquency in children.
(it specifically says "church" not "mosque"!)
It even sites religious based programs that have successfully helped young delinquents.

As far as your question on why God allows imperfection and suffering while he is perfect,
If a parent is an excellent driver with a perfect driving record, no tickets or collisions, yet has a teen who got his license to drive, the had several collisions and multiple tickets for traffic offenses, does that make the parents driving record an imperfect one?
(Not his driving Instructing ability)
Furthermore, if that young driver got a conviction on a drunk driving offense, and spent time in jail for it AND SUFFERED emotionally and maybe a bit physically while jailed, is that parent imperfect in their driving OR just as a parent because he didn't bail his child out and rather let him SUFFER the consequences of his irresponsible actions?

From BLAZEE:
In other words... religious people (Christians in particular) are only good, if and when their fear of god makes them behave that way. Meanwhile, non religious people that treat others with love and generosity only do so because they are corrupt and imperfect.

Blazee, the argument isn't peoples goodness, but rather Gods goodness.

Yes I agree many professing Christians live unchristian lives.
And many unbelievers live responsible, moral lives.
Though some of the most profane people I have come across were professing ATHEISTS.

[blazee]

Originally Posted by CL8

Blazee, the argument isn't peoples goodness, but rather Gods goodness.

Since when?

The post I was replying to, the post you were replying to, and the post he was replying to were all about people's behavior, not god's.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by CL8

If you did read it you know it first stresses the importance of strong family relationships, especially the parent/child relationships. Including much love and affection.
It's no coincidence that the first institution enacted in the bible is the family

Circular argument.
Besides, what's that got to with anything?
What is surprising about the founding heritage of America (a place settled by Christians) would place importance on Christian beliefs?
Beliefs I should add that are not exclusive to Christianity.
I have to say, you really do seem to lack a grasp of the idea of historic and social context.


Besides, the first institution enacted in the Bible is Law and punishment for crime.
It's no coincidence that every nation since has used the Bible/God or other religious text to define their laws and to justify punishments/acts of violence.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by CL8

MagicRat, the article you chose to reference from the heritage Foundation is spot on.
Did you read it all? The heritage Foundation is a very GOOD organization focusing on preserving the founding heritage of the U.S.

If you did read it you know it first stresses the importance of strong family relationships, especially the parent/child relationships. Including much love and affection.
It's no coincidence that the first institution enacted in the bible is the family (Adam and Eve)
Later WAAAAYY down in the article it points out how religious ethics and church is important to prevent delinquency in children.
(it specifically says "church" not "mosque"!)
It even sites religious based programs that have successfully helped young delinquents.

As far as your question on why God allows imperfection and suffering while he is perfect,
If a parent is an excellent driver with a perfect driving record, no tickets or collisions, yet has a teen who got his license to drive, the had several collisions and multiple tickets for traffic offenses, does that make the parents driving record an imperfect one?
(Not his driving Instructing ability)
Furthermore, if that young driver got a conviction on a drunk driving offense, and spent time in jail for it AND SUFFERED emotionally and maybe a bit physically while jailed, is that parent imperfect in their driving OR just as a parent because he didn't bail his child out and rather let him SUFFER the consequences of his irresponsible actions?
.

Imo the religious aspect of that article were very minor. As you said, they were WAAAAY down in the article.

I see no contradiction here, with my earlier posts.
Some religious ethics are good and thus appear in secular law. Also, some religious-based programs can provide valuable fellowship and guidance... all of which can happen without the fear of, or belief in god.

As for family... humans have evolved in the family unit. The earliest traces of hominids shows the presence of family units. It is a key part of human evolution, survival and culture, for milennia. So, imo, it is no surprise that the people who wrote the bible used the family unit as part of the first book....... and it is no surprise that the successful family unit is beneficial for raising children. Again, its been that way for milennia.

As for the rest of your post..... god is not a parent. You personally seem to hold god to a much higher standard than a parent, and give him extraordinary supernatural powers which parents do not have. However, god does not live up to those standards, nor does he seem to exercise the supernatural powers you attribute to him.

If god were all-powerful, he would have designed people so we would not get into trouble with the law.... we would all be happy and obedient. IMO the very nature of human suffering makes me believe that god enjoys suffering. He is a picky sadist who is alleged to be so wrapped up in the most mundane details of our lives. This is hardly the model for perfection.

Alternatively, as I mentioned before, he is not all-powerful at all or... does not exist.

[CL8]

"sigh"
How I wish I could open your eyes MagicRat, and Drunken Monkeys, and Blazees to the truth of God, his power and existence.
It's really not hard to see.
Just because suffering is not a pleasant thing to endure or see does not mean God is not still omnipotent, letting people make their own choices.

From MagicRat:
As for the rest of your post..... god is not a parent. You personally seem to hold god to a much higher standard than a parent, and give him extraordinary supernatural powers which parents do not have.

How many times is God called "Father" in the bible?
And I cannot give God any powers. He had all power before I was conceived.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by blazee

Since when?

The post I was replying to, the post you were replying to, and the post he was replying to were all about people's behavior, not god's.

according to the bible, the only one "good" is God.
The only way a person has "goodness" is by the blood of Christ covering his sin, when he puts his faith in him.

We are ALL depraved sinners.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by CL8

"sigh"
How I wish I could open your eyes .

Has this debate run it's course? Do you wish we could become deluded so you would not have to use any logical or rational arguments? I'm sorry; that's harsh. I appreciate all your efforts in this debate, I really do.
But an almost-unchanging, fictional construct, such as religion, simply cannot provide answers or evidence when faced with the sheer weight of constructive, dynamic scientific evidence combined with logical reasoning.

Seriously, I have been interested in this issue for decades and looked at it from both sides. I am convinced that god, or gods and their associated religions and paraphernalia are all a man-made fabrication because Humanity has had complex cultural, historic and psychological motivations to create a deity, or deities and associated religions.

Now, such religions continue to benefit some people and continue to harm and damage others. But such religions are entirely man-made and have no basis in any tangible fact, event or phenomenon in the universe.Of this I am sure. Indeed, much evidence, some of which has been discussed here specifically discredits all claims to the contrary.

And there is no decent evidence to support its existence. This fact is built into the structure of religion.... hence the need for faith.....firm belief in something for which there is no proof

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

And there is no decent evidence to support its existence. This fact is built into the structure of religion.... hence the need for faith.....firm belief in something for which there is no proof

Like "global Warming"!!!

[drunken monkey]

Hockey Stick anyone?



No, of course the planet isn't getting warmer; we're just imagining that the numbers are getting higher in that comparative survey.

[blazee]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Hockey Stick anyone?



No, of course the planet isn't getting warmer; we're just imagining that the numbers are getting higher in that comparative survey.

Wow, didn't expect that to reappear after it was discovered to be BS.

[drunken monkey]

I thought it was the original that was BS'd; that's why I posted the newer comparision one that shows other proxy sample data-sets.

The thing that brought the comparitive chart to my atttention.
Youtube.

[Shpuker]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Hockey Stick anyone?



No, of course the planet isn't getting warmer; we're just imagining that the numbers are getting higher in that comparative survey.

Naw of course theirs no pattern.....

Ohh and isn't the BBC under investigation of fraud charges?