They want the world to believe THEY are peaceful...

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

most passages in the koran that deals with fighting non believers (or whatever you want to call then) come from the part that talks about jihad; that being a reaction to persecution. It isn't that the koran is full of passages teaching them to fight others but that there is one section that talks of actions against constant persecution/repression.

The truth of the matter is they oppress themselves. And you reap what you sow. You should see the profiles of these jihadists that get captured in Iraq or Afghanistan. I've seen the reports.

Still waiting for the similarities in the Bible or any mention about waging jihad (holy war).

[drunken monkey]

sorry for brief previos posts; i was browsing from my phone and didn't have full access.

a link I wanted to post.

first of all, the attack on the twin towers can not be taken as an example of islam because as said before, an act of extremists/fundementalism is not indicitive of the religion.

secondly, because I missed it before.

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. Zechariah 13:3

You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Deuteronomy 7:16


Likewise, you wives should be subordinate to your husbands so that, even if some disobey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives' conduct when they observe your reverent and chaste behavior. Peter 3:1-2


When the Lord has pity on Jacob and again chooses Israel and settles them on their own soil, the aliens will join them and be counted with the house of Jacob. The house of Israel will take them and bring them along to its place, and possess them as male and female slaves on the Lord's soil, making captives of its captors and ruling over its oppressors. Isaiah 14:1-2


The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' Exodus 31:12-15


Whoever spoils his son will bind up his wounds, and will suffer heartache at every cry. An unbroken horse turns out stubborn, and an unchecked son turns out headstrong. Pamper a child, and he will terrorize you; play with him, and he will grieve you. Do not laugh with him, or you will have sorrow with him, and in the end you will gnash your teeth. Give him no freedom in his youth, and do not ignore his errors. Bow down his neck in his youth, and beat his sides while he is young, or else he will become stubborn and disobey you, and you will have sorrow of soul from him. Discipline your son and make his yoke heavy, so that you may not be offended by his shamelessness. Sirach 30:7-13


Then Jehoiada made a covenant between the LORD and the king and the people that they would be the LORD's people. He also made a covenant between the king and the people. And all the people of the land went over to the temple of Baal and tore it down. They demolished the altars and smashed the idols to pieces, and they killed Mattan the priest of Baal in front of the altars. Jehoiada the priest stationed guards at the Temple of the LORD. Kings 11:17-18


But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence. Luke 19:27


Far be it from us to desert the law and the ordinances. We will not obey the king's words by turning aside from our religion to the right hand or to the left." When he had finished speaking these words, a Jew came forward in the sight of all to offer sacrifice on the altar in Modein, according to the king's command. When Mattathias saw it, he burned with zeal and his heart was stirred. He gave vent to righteous anger; he ran and killed him on the altar. Maccabees 2:21-24


If anyone rebels against your orders and does not obey every command you give him, he shall be put to death. Joshua 1:18

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by BNaylor

The truth of the matter is they oppress themselves. And you reap what you sow.

That is also very true; that those who look for something will often find it.
I know it is a very tired argument but it is also a true one that context is key when taking into account a snippet of religious text.

There are Islamic publications that are banned in the UK (by Mosques) because in their translations and quoting, they deliberately mis-present the intention of the pasages. They leave out the qualifying/defining second verse or go with the most extreme translation. If you speak another language, especially if it is a non romanic one, you'll know how hard it is sometimes to find an exact translation of some words and terms.

As part of my martial arts training/teaching, I have to work from Chinese a lot and at times, there is no translation in English that matches the original. One example I can give is that in Chinese, there is a phrase, "centipede moves mountain" but in order to explain it, takes a good couple of sentences to do so. That is also ignoring the context of the phrase.

By the same token, I have come across some translation of things that just don't match what I know it to be because I know the original language.

In the case of the Quraan, in the UK especially, it is taught in Arabic but the students are not neccessarily taught Arabic. An ex of mine was Muslim and while she could read the texts (as in make the sounds) she did not know fully know what translates into what. What she was taught was an approximate translation into her language and english of the original Arabic.

[thegladhatter]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

In the case of the Quraan, in the UK especially, it is taught in Arabic but the students are not neccessarily taught Arabic. An ex of mine was Muslim and while she could read the texts (as in make the sounds) she did not know fully know what translates into what. What she was taught was an approximate translation into her language and english of the original Arabic.

So...they believe in a religion that they know nothing about?? Hmmmm...yeah let's sympathize with them. They are playing with a full deck after all.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by bagwanshrirashnish

So...they believe in a religion that they know nothing about?? Hmmmm...yeah let's sympathize with them. They are playing with a full deck after all.

you are really good at reading what isn't there aren't you?


who said anything about sympathy?
who said they know nothing about it?

I am telling of how the Quraan is taught (in the UK to Engish speaking/Non Arabic speaking Muslims)and how some people can come up with certain extreme translations.

How many times has the Bible been translated?
How many differences are there between the different translations?
How close is the English translation to the original?

Seeing as you didn't learn your Christianity from the original language, how do you know what the original really says?

[thegladhatter]

Okay...you want to defend nut-jobs that's fine with me.

I have indeed studied the scriptures. I have studied SEVERAL translations. I know how easy it is to take scripture out of context. Many old testament verses were intended in specific instances and are intended more as historic teachings. I knew you would be able to find what you wanted for your purposes.

[drunken monkey]

I didn't ask whether or not you know the scriptures, I asked how many times it has been translated and how many differences there are between the translations and how one (not you specifically) can know how close the modern translations is to the original.

Originally Posted by bagwanshrirashnish

Okay...you want to defend nut-jobs that's fine with me.

are you calling all Muslims nut jobs?
if so, how is that not persecution?

Originally Posted by bagwanshrirashnish

Many old testament verses were intended in specific instances and are intended more as historic teachings. I knew you would be able to find what you wanted for your purposes.

just like many of the often quote verses in the Quraan are taken out of context to fit a purpose.

hypocrisy and double standards?

[thegladhatter]

It is their "group" that is responsible for the VAST majority of the nonsense going on in the world today. It isn't the Baptists, the Methodists, the Anglicans, the Catholics, et al...strapping bombs to themselves and reaping havoc among the innocent people of the world. You in the UK may wish to ignore that, but as for me....I think I prefer to be safer than that.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by bagwanshrirashnish

It is their "group" that is responsible for the VAST majority of the nonsense going on in the world today. It isn't the Baptists, the Methodists, the Anglicans, the Catholics, et al...strapping bombs to themselves and reaping havoc among the innocent people of the world. You in the UK may wish to ignore that, but as for me....I think I prefer to be safer than that.

oh really?

I bet more crimes/acts of violence/terror are being committed in the world by non Muslims than that being committed by Muslims.

I wonder how many of those responsible for the economic troubles were Muslim?

China isn't Islamic.
Russia isn't Islamic.
North Korea isn't Islamic.
Zimbabwe (Robert Mugabe) isn't Islamic.

Some of the most issue laden countries in the world right now and these don't have much to do with Islam.

the most recent acts of violence/terror on UK soil.
nothing to do with Islam.



in case you missed it the first time;

Originally Posted by me

are you calling all Musilms nut jobs?
if so, how is that not persecution?

[thegladhatter]

Oh....we were talking about economic troubles?!? I thought we were talking about the PEACEFUL muslim nutjobs. My bad.

No really, DM, I think if you continue in this vein you lose a lot of credibility, dude.

[kris]

Originally Posted by bagwanshrirashnish

NONE of those hold a candle to the islamic nutjobs! Their holy book specifically directs the devout to destroy the infidels.

Didn't a certain religion, which I am almost certain you practice, execute tens of thousands of people over the course of time?



Any religion has it's extremists. I can site reference after reference on Christian extremists, Catholic extremists, Hindu extremists. Does that make any one religion worse than the other?

[thegladhatter]

Originally Posted by kris

Didn't a certain religion, which I am almost certain you practice, execute tens of thousands of people over the course of time?

What the hell religion would that be? tens of thousands?

Originally Posted by kris

Any religion has it's extremists. I can site reference after reference on Christian extremists, Catholic extremists, Hindu extremists. Does that make any one religion worse than the other?

They PALE in comparison to the muslim extremists.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by bagwanshrirashnish

Oh....we were talking about economic troubles?!? I thought we were talking about the PEACEFUL muslim nutjobs. My bad.

No really, DM, I think if you continue in this vein you lose a lot of credibility, dude.

oh excuse me for thinking that the potential collapse of the world's economy isn't as exciting as a few fundementalists making bombs of themselves.

Originally Posted by bagwanshrirashnish

What the hell religion would that be? tens of thousands?

what's the latest civilian death count in Iraq?


and because you missed/ignored it a second time:

Originally Posted by me

are you calling all Musilms nut jobs?
if so, how is that not persecution?

[drunken monkey]

let's not forget that claiming that someone's religion is the source of all the world's violence and troubles doesn't count as a fundementalist/extremist perspective.

again; hypocrisy and double standards.

Originally Posted by kris

That would be the Christian kingdoms worried about some conspiracy threatening their beliefs through magic and poison. This resulted in mass gendercide throughout Europe during the 14th and 15th centuries.

I guess this doesn't count though as it does not play into your modern day extremism.

and you don't need to go that far back; Hitler was Catholic.

[thegladhatter]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

oh excuse me for thinking that the potential collapse of the world's economy isn't as exciting as a few fundementalists making bombs of themselves.

Just keeping on topic. We weren't talking about economic woes.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

what's the latest civilian death count in Iraq?

They aren't dead due to persecution by a particular religion. (unless you consider that perhaps the Islamic extremists brought it on themselves)

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

and because you missed/ignored it a second time:
are you calling all Musilms nut jobs?
if so, how is that not persecution?

A hell of a lot of them....yes.BUT...calling one a "nut-job" isn't my idea of persecution. It is called restraint. I can think of a lot of other terminology.