Suicide, the argument against a God?

[jon@af]

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

aahh, but what is truly puzzling is if the universe had just been created and the only humans ever created till that point were adam and eve then where did satan come from? to become and angel you have to be human first. so he went from human to angel to outcast all before adam and eve even had time to procreate.

Satan is known as a Fallen Angel and thus existed before the creation of man. That Satan manifested himself to Adam and Eve in the form of a serpent does not mean that God is in fact evil, it simply means that Satan chose a form created by God to tempt Adam and Eve.

Evil exists as long as man exists. However, not because God created man to have some bit of evil in him, but because, as has been said, God gave man the freedom to choose what path he wanted for life. From that, man can choose good or evil.


Ezekiel 28--the origin of Satan
His Beauty and Perfection
Ezekiel is careful to point out that Satan is a created being. He is not eternal, but limited and finite. Before the fall, Lucifer is perfect...intellectually and physically. Ez. 28:13 describes the beauty of Lucifer. "The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created." Christian writer Dwight Pentecost wrote "It was not necessary for Lucifer to learn to play a musical instrument in order to praise God. If you please, he had a built-in pipe organ.......Lucifer, because of his beauty, did what a musical instrument would do in the hands of a skilled musician.....Lucifer didn't have to look for someone to play the organ so that he could sing the doxology..he was the doxology." His name "serpent" means "The shining one." Paul also describes him as "an angel of light". (II Cor 11:14)

His Place: He was in Eden, the garden of God, on the holy mountain of God. (Later Ezekiel remarks, "You defiled your sanctuaries.") Ez. 28:18

His Power: Ez 28:14 says, "You were the anointed cherub who covers." He was one of the cherubs that could look upon the glory of God and voice praise and thanksgiving directly to Him. The cherubim were one of the highest orders of the angels and it was over this class of angels that Lucifer was given authority.

His Pride: Ez. 28:15-18 Iniquity was found in him--his heart was lifted up because of his beauty--He corrupted his wisdom for the sake of his splendor.

Isaiah 14:13-14 - The 5 things Satan wanted:
1. Lucifer wanted God's place. "I will ascend into heaven." He wanted to move God off His throne.
2. Lucifer wanted God's position. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God." "Stars" = angels of God. Lucifer was never the Commander-in-Chief of the angelic army, but he was a Five-Star General. He was not happy just being in charge of the cherubim; he wanted sole authority over all the angels without submitting himself to the authority of the Creator. He wanted to eliminate God from the scene.
3. He wants to control all the universe--absolute control. "I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north."
4. He was no longer happy to be a reflector of his Creator, he wanted to be the originator. "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds." Of the 150 references to clouds in the Bible, over 100 of them are related to the presence and glory of God. Lucifer was saying he was going to take to himself a greater glory than the glory of God.
5. He wanted to be responsible to no one but himself. He wanted total independence. "I will be like the Most High."

His Punishment: Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mount of God (28:16). I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones" (vs. 16) I cast you to the ground (vs. 17) I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you (vs 17) I brought fire from your midst....it devoured you. (vs. 18) I turned you to ashes upon the earth (vs 18)

Lucifer's proud heart was the reason for his fall, and the Bible tells us he did indeed fall, and took some of the angels with him. (Rev. 12:7-12) Some believe that Satan's fall to earth took place at Jesus' resurrection or ascension. What we must remember is that Christ is victorious, but the devil is not a symbol or legend, he is very real. He is an angel turned into a devil by pride. And pride is still a very real temptation that faces us persistently--because Satan is seeking to reproduce himself--the most prideful being of all. "The Devil sleeps like an animal in the shadow of good works waiting for us to conceive a secret admiration of ourselves."

Did God know the pride that would captivate the heart of Lucifer when He created him? Yes, since God is omniscient, He knew.
Could God have prevented it? Yes, since God is omnipotent, He could have. Why didn't He? How could a perfect, holy being fall? Satan had no sinful world to lure him, no tempter to push him and no innate sinful nature to overpower him. How could the first unholy affection arise in an angelic being?
The answer lies in the fact that Lucifer was created with a freedom to choose just as we are. God gave angels and people the choice of good or evil. But, even though God permits the devil to do his work in this world, God is still in control. And Jesus has complete power over Satan--he defeated Satan when he died and rose again for the sins of mankind. One day Satan will be bound forever, never again to do his evil work. But until that day, we who belong to Christ are part of the ongoing battle--for our very souls. Our weapons are the Word of God, being watchful, giving no place to him and resisting him.


This is where I found this information: http://www.lotc.org/Angel/lesson5.htm

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by Broke_as_****

You're just repeating the same flawed statement.

The argument you'll get from any believer:

God created a universe without any evil in it. Look on the side of the box, "Evil content is 0%". He did not create evil. There was nothing evil about him. What he did do is create humans with free will to do good or evil. All evil in the world was created by man. But since God sets it up like that to weed out the good from the bad he didn't interject himself into the situation. Just because he created a universe in which there was the potential for evil does not make him evil. You can run someone through with muffler but that doesn't mean the exhaust shop that sold it to you is going to be put on trial.

God Inc. is not liable for misuse of free will by the end user as per the EULA.

Now this is all beside the point that all religion is entirely flawed and retarded from one end to the other.

If god created the universe, he is responsible for everything within that universe, including the capacity to do evil. Whether he directly involves himself in evil actions or not, his creation of a world in which evil exists (versus a world where evil does not exist) places that responsibility on him. If he was all powerful and all good, he would have created a universe in which evil is NOT POSSIBLE. Otherwise, he is responsible for every evil action that has occurred, since his creation of the universe resulted in evil actions. Not to mention that if he was all TRULY powerful/all knowing, he would have known that his creation of the world would result in evil. Not to mention also that god "created" a world in which hundreds of thousands of innocent people are killed by natural disasters, which blows the whole all good argument right out of the water. So, like I said, the ideas of simultaneously being all powerful and all good are irreconcilable in the context of the creation of our universe.

Edit: Just realized, massively off-topic, not meaning to hijack

[Damien]

ya'll are far to uneducated in general in theology to argue anything. all you know is your beliefs and nothing more.

Human to angel? Time to take a break from saturday morning cartoons. God is not all powerful or all good? First of all, that's like trying to figure out a n00bs personality after one post. All you know is what is here on Earth and nothing more. Heck, maybe God is shaking His head at us and all this stupidity.

Believers as BAS is putting it have no arguments. they have text to reiterate from as much as you have from reading from non-believer writings. the only way to argue this with intelligence is not by using the same arguement again or going deeper than copying and pasting.

God is all powerful and good and because of that, He can do whatever He wants. How can you argue that someone is not by human definitions. Good? what is good? It all comes down to killing a baby to save 100 lives. And we're talking brutal baby murder vs saving a 100 lives. Neither is good, but one is better.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that God is this or exists, idc wtf ya'll believe. But, these threads are getting quite pointless because they're all the same and get very tiring of copying and pasting te same argument into each thread.

[Knifeblade]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Personally, I believe Camus' argument, while flawed, is interesting. However, the passages you give do not address free will.

If people do have free will, it is not inevitable they will accept suicide as a solution to the idea of a universe without meaning. For many of us, God is irrelevant to our lives, yet our lives are rich and full, despite th fact that all we do will amount to nothing, in the long run.

We are able to stare in the face of futility and find dignity and meaning in our lives without God.

I know this is not Camus' point; he was addressing the issue of God's existence and influence, not free will (which is a different philosophical topic all together. )

After perusing all the recent posts, this strikes me as the most poignant, IMO.

Life is life, and if anyone truly examines their life activities, it usually sans any "spiritual" influence. Basic behavioral principles have shown, [and if you examine your own life-activities], that the current environment [or milieu, if you prefer], dictates your actions. Your actions, in response to that milieu, change that milieu, which then react on you to cause your next behavior. Cause and effect at it's basic level.

Therefore, someone who decides to opt-out of the milieu by ending it, has merely reacted to a chain of events they have dictated and responded to. This is simplified, granted, however, the "opt-outer" is simply responding to a set of events he/she has begun and then responded to in a chain of events that further occur from one action that starts the chain of that milieu.

Essentially, no loss of gene-pool.

[jcsaleen]

Originally Posted by thrasher

In fact reading Camus in high school finally awoke me to the harsh reality of the impossibilit of God's existence.

I agree...

Imo ~ If we lived in a perfect world people would be killing them selves alot more often. Persuit of evil makes many want to live to fight another day correct?

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by Damien

ya'll are far to uneducated in general in theology to argue anything. all you know is your beliefs and nothing more.

Human to angel? Time to take a break from saturday morning cartoons. God is not all powerful or all good? First of all, that's like trying to figure out a n00bs personality after one post. All you know is what is here on Earth and nothing more. Heck, maybe God is shaking His head at us and all this stupidity.

Believers as BAS is putting it have no arguments. they have text to reiterate from as much as you have from reading from non-believer writings. the only way to argue this with intelligence is not by using the same arguement again or going deeper than copying and pasting.

God is all powerful and good and because of that, He can do whatever He wants. How can you argue that someone is not by human definitions. Good? what is good? It all comes down to killing a baby to save 100 lives. And we're talking brutal baby murder vs saving a 100 lives. Neither is good, but one is better.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that God is this or exists, idc wtf ya'll believe. But, these threads are getting quite pointless because they're all the same and get very tiring of copying and pasting te same argument into each thread.

Why are you wasting bandwidth criticizing others when you have nothing insightful to add? You have not formed a coherent or intelligent thought in this post, and it seems to function only to attack others. It's funny that you criticize us for having no understanding of theology but there is no indication in your posts that you have any formal training in theology or philosophy. If you think these threads are pointless, then take you self righteous attitude elsewhere.

[klohiq]

Originally Posted by Broke_as_****

Now it is true that God is responsible for evil in the sense that he created a universe that has evil in it but that same logic would tell you that GM is responsible for drunk drivers simply because they built the car.

I agree with you on some points but that analogy is horrible...I think a better example would be gm purposely making it acceptable to drink and drive, such as making a compartment within easy access of the driver to drink beer or making the cars run on beer with a small tube from the gas tank to the driver compartment...

By creating a universe that evil has the ability to exist means he created it with the intention of allowing evil to exist...thus it means that god has evil within him or he had no control to stop evil from existing and therefore created a universe which allowed it by default.

Either god not all powerful or he is evil

Or we could assume that everything is evil by default and therefore god only created the good things in life...but if god was the first, the ultimate, the only...then he should have control to create and make whatever rules the galaxy and living creatures abide by and interact with....

[MonsterBengt]

Don't argue against God. You'll either get God mad, for trying to argue against him, or you'll get christians mad for ruining their point of life or something.