Suicide, the argument against a God?

[Muscletang]

Ok in my Values and Ethics class we had to read a passage by Albert Camus. Bascially what his whole idea was that suicide shows there is no God. I'll pick out some of what he wrote.

If you want to know more the author is Albert Camus (1913-1960) and the work I quoted from is called The Myth of Sisyphus.

There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest-whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nice or twelve categories-comes afterwads.

It happens that the stage sets collapse. Rising, streetcar, four hours in the office or the factory, meal, streetcar, four hours of work, meal, sleep, and Monday Tuesday Wenesday Thursday Friday and Saturday according to the same rhythm-this path is easily followed most of the time. But one day the "why" arises and everything begins in that weariness tinged with amazement. "Begins"-this is important. Weariness comes at the end of the acts of mechanical life, but at the same time it inaugurates the impulse of consciousness. It awakens consciousness and provokes what follows. What follows is the gradual return into the chain or it is the definitive awakening. At the end of the awakening comes, in time, the consequence:suicide or recovery.

Either we are not free and God the allpowerful is responsible for evil. Or we are free and responsible but God is not all-powerful.

Suicide, like the leap, is acceptance at its extreme. Everything is over and man returns to his essential history. His future, his unique and dreadful future-he sees and rushes toward it. In its way, suicde settles the absurd.

Yet a day comes when a man notices or says that he is thrity. He belongs to time, and by the horror that seizes him, he recognizes his worst enemy. Tomorrow, he was longing for tomorrow, whereas everything in him ought to reject it.

The absurd man thus catches sight of a burning and frigid, transparent and limited universe in which nothing is possible but everything is given, and beyond which all is collapse and nothingness. He can decide to accept such a universe and draw from it his strength, his refusal to hope, and the unyielding evidence of a life without consolation.

Knowing whether or not man is free involves knowing whether he can have a master.

I'm sure parts of this are hard to understand but I can't type the entire thing. What he basically is saying is that one day we will all realize we are nothing. There is no meaning to life or the universe. We will all accept it and find out the true meaning of life is to just live it out. The alternative is we will turn to suicide unable to deal with this truth about the universe. He says though that suicide is freedom and a man who does it, although wrong, has complete control over his life. With a God though this is not possible.

Anyway, what are your guy's thoughts on this? Agree? Disagree?

[thrasher]

"Either we are not free and God the allpowerful is responsible for evil. Or we are free and responsible but God is not all-powerful."

Couldn't count how many times I've said that on this forum, about as true as it gets when it comes to the idea of god. Camus is an absolute philosophical genius and doesn't get the credit he deserves. But anyways I completely agree, in fact reading Camus in high school finally awoke me to the harsh reality of the impossibilit of God's existence. I have no problems with people commiting suicide, except for the impact it has on others around them. If somebody desires to do themselves in, then they should be able to do so.

An aside about Camus, you should check out "the stranger", it is absoutely amazing.

[Broke_as_****]

I'm no fan or believer of any religion by any means but the implication that it is either:

A. God is responsible for everything that happens, evil included

or

B. God only does the good stuff and/or can't control the evil and thus is not all powerful

is flawed. The reason this is so, as any believer will give you in a heart beat, is that supposedly God is all powerful but does not interject his will into all matters. The sheer fact that he did not do anything about a particular situation is not the same as not being able to do anything about it.

This is the whole basis of religious morality, Almight Bruce has given you free will and is going to stand back to see what you do with it.

Now it is true that God is responsible for evil in the sense that he created a universe that has evil in it but that same logic would tell you that GM is responsible for drunk drivers simply because they built the car.

[vinnym86]

Nihilism

[drewh4386]

Cant say i disagree or agree. But i will say that suicide is one of the most confusing and agrumented subjects i have probably tried discussing.

[blakscorpion21]

im gonna have to go with the previous posters, i think that if god was all powerful he would stop things from happening. for a god that claims to love his creations more than anything, to let them do something that would lead to their eternal destruction seems not only injust but pretty sadistic. there is no justice or compassion in the christian religion, if you look at it more closeley. it is claimed that god shows compassion for sending his son to die so we could be saved of our sins. but why should people be punished for just being the way we were created. why create a creature with imperfections and then punish them for it.

[MagicRat]

Personally, I believe Camus' argument, while flawed, is interesting. However, the passages you give do not address free will.

If people do have free will, it is not inevitable they will accept suicide as a solution to the idea of a universe without meaning. For many of us, God is irrelevant to our lives, yet our lives are rich and full, despite th fact that all we do will amount to nothing, in the long run.

We are able to stare in the face of futility and find dignity and meaning in our lives without God.

I know this is not Camus' point; he was addressing the issue of God's existence and influence, not free will (which is a different philosophical topic all together. )

[Damien]

Sounds like basic rubbish that a lot of people say. While suicide is far from complicated, it's still not something i would say people are always stupid for performing. Sometimes it's when you're caught up in the moment and other times it's a build up overtime.

NOt complicated, not difficult to see it happen or to see it in someone. But the talk about is talk complicated at all. THe whole where you go thing with Catholics seems harsh. Hell immediately, but w/e. That's a different discussion.

BAck on topic. If God is all powerful wtf!?! Seriously...free will. Even says he gave it to us. No direct contact, just influence. If that from Him. I don't believe in diving intervention, so to me, these writings right here are like that of a 4th grader.

And divine intervention, for those not in the know, means the outside act of a higher power. Which many Christians do believe in. The whole miracle thing, and while i believe in miracles, just not that He said, "let it be so" at the moment in order for it to happen.

So yeah, and suicide is more commonly something attempted/succeeded at the moment and not planned and happens more among young people for this reason.

So way more murders are not fully pre-meditated and more like the spouse gets home and sees the other in the arms of a lover.

And sorry, i can't reiterate enough how childish i think this is. Seriously, it's no different then when someone dies they're like "Why GOd!?! Why didn't you stop it!?" and because of that, they don't believe anymore. Ok, so if God saved everyone, we'd have a lot of people here. o0o0o0 but he's God and he could then make that not a problem. Heck, he make anything not a problem, especially Africa which is pretty much Hell on earth.

Or...heck, he simply doesn't want. to. Being the human race, i wouldn't want to help them either. And it's not evil to not want to help. How many goldfish, ant farms, etc go to waste due to negligence. Only difference, this one is by choice.

Oh right, mine was due to build up and too close to forget. i've helped many, but most were just ones int he moment. Still, it's suicide, not complicated to understand or to get to.

[thrasher]

Either god created a world in which evil is possible, which means that he is not all good. Or he was unable to create a world in which evil could not exist, in which case he is not all powerful. The capacity to do evil through free will was either bestowed upon humans or unavoidable in the creation of the world. Thus god is either not all powerful or not all good.

[Muscletang]

My take...

Either we are not free and God the allpowerful is responsible for evil

Responsible? We all go back to free will. We have a free will to be evil or not. Now he could come in and stop somebody who is evil, but isn't that against the point? We have a choice.

Some parents have a child who grows up and creates a flesh eating virus that destroys half of the world. The parents are considered a "traditional family" with morals and values.

Are those parents responsible for that evil? They created that child and brought him into the world. However he had the free will. He decided to do evil acts and go on and on.

Or we are free and responsible but God is not all-powerful

Again, isn't have a free will being free and responsible? We're free to do whatever we want and responsible to face the punishment.

The kid that made the flesh eating virus gets away with it and lives a nice life. However when he dies (according to your religion) he's in for a world of hurt.

Fair?

60 years on this Earth without punishment < an eternity of punishment

[Broke_as_****]

Originally Posted by thrasher

Either god created a world in which evil is possible, which means that he is not all good. Or he was unable to create a world in which evil could not exist, in which case he is not all powerful. The capacity to do evil through free will was either bestowed upon humans or unavoidable in the creation of the world. Thus god is either not all powerful or not all good.

You're just repeating the same flawed statement.

The argument you'll get from any believer:

God created a universe without any evil in it. Look on the side of the box, "Evil content is 0%". He did not create evil. There was nothing evil about him. What he did do is create humans with free will to do good or evil. All evil in the world was created by man. But since God sets it up like that to weed out the good from the bad he didn't interject himself into the situation. Just because he created a universe in which there was the potential for evil does not make him evil. You can run someone through with muffler but that doesn't mean the exhaust shop that sold it to you is going to be put on trial.

God Inc. is not liable for misuse of free will by the end user as per the EULA.

Now this is all beside the point that all religion is entirely flawed and retarded from one end to the other.

[blakscorpion21]

^ he supposedly created the snake in the garden of eden, which was evil and not human. why create the snake if you know that it will trick adam and eve into losing their salvation. apparently god likes to set people up for failure.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

^ he supposedly created the snake in the garden of eden, which was evil and not human. why create the snake if you know that it will trick adam and eve into losing their salvation. apparently god likes to set people up for failure.

Actually the snake is Satan and Satan, or Lucifer, had freel will as well and didn't put it to good use either. He got the idea that he was actually better than God and was more powerful than him. He wasn't though and was cast out.

Originally Posted by Broke_as_****

God Inc. is not liable for misuse of free will by the end user as per the EULA.

Haha I like that.

[blakscorpion21]

aahh, but what is truly puzzling is if the universe had just been created and the only humans ever created till that point were adam and eve then where did satan come from? to become and angel you have to be human first. so he went from human to angel to outcast all before adam and eve even had time to procreate.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

the only humans ever created till that point were adam and eve then where did satan come from?

He was before the time of Adam and Eve.

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

to become and angel you have to be human first.

I have never heard that before. Yes in cartoons you become an angel when you die but I've never heard this as an actual belief. Most beliefs I've heard of hold angels as the buffer between man and creator.