Israel invades Lebanon...

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by sanfordbrow

Dear DVS LT1,


It is difficult to omit religion when the design of Islam is to conquer or oppress all peoples until they say there is no god but Allah.

In the earlier writings (Surras) Mohammad seemed to have respect for Jews and Christians, but the later ones make the living in harmony option non viable. Here are two examples that are self explanatory.

• Who so of you makes them his friends (Christians and/or Jews) is one of them. (5:55)
• War, not friendship, is mandatory until Islam reigns everywhere. (8:39 and 2:193)

I prefer not to leave God out of rational thought for I believe that His law is the basis of rationality, but even if the rest of the world agrees to that secular approach, the Muslim who is a fundamentalist has few options.

Sandy, haven't you read anything what Shpyder posted about taking things out of context? Now why is it so hard for you to understand that? You talk like you're some expert.

I have to break this down again and again...

5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

5:49 And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah.s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.

5:50 Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah.

5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

5:52 Those in whose hearts is a disease - thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts.

5:55 Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).


5:56 As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.


5:57 O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).


5:58 When ye proclaim your call to prayer they take it (but) as mockery and sport; that is because they are a people without understanding.


Anyone who mocks our religion, bad mouth it, have no respect about our religion and they offer a muslim there friendship, we reject them. And for you to quote the wrong Surah just shows how unintelligent you are Sandy.

Heres an easy one...

8:39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

C'mon. Do I really need to explain that one? Do me a favor and stop copying from Craig Winn's website and his goons. Wherever you got those "Surahs" is from an anti-Islamic websites. Not only that, they're way off! Wrong verse numbers.

[C2Z06]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Muslim, Christian, Jew, it doesn't matter. The only thing the zealots care about is the body count.


And the killing continues.

I'd argue against the point that zealous Christians are for a climbing body count. Look at the 100's of thousands of Christians who have been butchered in Sudan without ever taking up arms to defend themselves when they could. Look at the thousands of Christians around the world who have gone over to Sudan to feed the persucuted Christians there who have lost their lives for their zeal and never once attacked some one.

On the other hand, look at the UN "peacekeeping force" who fired on a C-130 that was carrying food, clothes and school supplies into a "no fly zone" that was over southern Sudan that was over the Christian territory to turn it back. The UN is a farce and has been for decades (aside). It has been the Shi'a Muslims of Sudan who have sought a campaing of conversion or genocide where as the Christians, if you didn't convert, would feed you, clothe you, give you medicine and let you come and go as you please. You sir, are greatly mistaken about zealous Christians and Jews.

In regards to Islam, I have many close friends from Bahrain, Jordan and Egypt who are devout Muslims. Most of whom are the warmest and most genorous people I know. I would call them zealous for their faith, because its the tenants of their faith that drives their actions. The difference between them and those I would call delusional is that they use their faith (Islam) as a guideline to benefit people and not as a means to rule through fear and oppression.

You sir, need to really study and talk to people of those different faiths. Your ignorance (lack of knowledge), is leading to your stupid statements.

[C2Z06]

Originally Posted by Shpyder

But I guess it's all relative....if they didn't actively try to avoid killing the innocent, the Lebanese death toll may have been more like 2000 instead of 200. Israel is between a rock and a hard place for sure, and though I must admit sudden action was necessary and collateral damage was unavoidable, I nevertheless remain saddened and stumped by the simply massive casualities on the other side.

As am I. I truly wish that something else could have been done as well. What surprised me is the lack of ground action to this point. Israel has held back most of their armor and mechanized forces along with its airpower. I wonder if they had unleashed everything on Hezbollah, if this thing would not have been over a week ago. With all that said, there was a way to avoid all of this, but the opportunity was missed in the mid-70's.