Please help. :)

[YogsVR4]

[quote=Nayr747That is all the time I have right now to devote to this. I have a lot of other crap to do. I will read the rest of the article later and continue to bring out the untrue or unfounded points, or the true ones.[/quote]

Do you get yourself in a moral dilemma when you swat a mosquito? How about when a bug slams into your windshield? Fishing get you in a knot? I can only imagine how many protests you attend to stop the evil stage of putting a worm on a hook. Perhaps its only mammals that your concerned about, but I'm sure you have your own imaginary line about which animals are worth the same as humans and which are not.

You still haven't rebutted anything. As one example

Again, untrue. Viewpoints such as these generally stem from a lack of contact and knowledge of the group you are talking about. This is not just true of humans/animals; It’s the same phenomenon responsible for the viewpoints of whites/blacks, Germans/Jews, Hutus/Tutsis, etc. If you have had the pleasure of watching animals such as gorillas up close you will see that they are extremely intelligent, more so than you are led to believe. I watched one gorilla sitting down looking at his hand and giving all the outward characteristics that he was contemplating something. He turned his had, moved his fingers, and looked intently at it as you might do.

Swing and a miss. There is no animal other then humans who are reflective of their actions. Gorillas are creative, but not reflective. When have you seen a gorilla remorseful for something they've done? At what point did they understand their own mortality and alter their behavior because of it?

You keep going to the topic of intelligence. The only thing higher intelligent in an animal gets is the ease in which humans can control its behavior. The fact the IQ of a monkey is higher then a comatose patient on life support does not equate that monkey to human life.

So far, your proof and arguments have been pathetic. You quote people and simply say "untrue". You offer no proof, evidence or coherent thoughts. If that's all you understand then let me speak to your level. Animals = Humans. Untrue.


btw, you failed to eat your crow when you asked if I had labrador before.

[drunken monkey]

why is that animals are allowed to screw their sisters, eat their babies, kill others who step into their territory, virtually wipe out rival species (intentional or otherwise), eat other species' babies and other general acts of nastiness but we aren't?

Is this question worth $100 as well?


er.... not saying that I would like to screw my sister or eat my baby...

[driftinggrifter2]

^i hope not that would be fairly scary



Now to prove that a humans life is more valuable than a animals.

How many people if had the choice would choose to die in the place of a seal so that that seal can live.

If you had to choose one to die would it be a seal or someone's kid, and the other could live.

Yes i find my life to be more valuable than anybody elses life except my daughters hers is the only life i hold higher than mine.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by driftinggrifter2

How many people if had the choice would choose to die in the place of a seal so that that seal can live.

i like this one because if you flip it slightly, you also get an answer.

how many seals would choose to die in the place of a person?

[YogsVR4]

I'll wait on his swatting bugs answer. Or mousetraps for that matter.


Its just another person with to much time on their hands getting all empathetic with the cute and cuddly creatures.

[Muscletang]

I feel like chicken tonight...

Really though folks if you just take a look at the food chain you can see how this all turns out.



What right does a cow have? The right to be my next T-bone.
What right does a chicken have? The right to be my KFC family pack.
What right does a whale have? The right to look really cool all stuffed up in my front yard.
What right do all animals in nature have? The right to be used by humans the way we see fit.

I'm all for the senseless killing of animals if A. they don't suffer and B. they won't become extinct. I mean if they ever bring back the T-rex like they did in Jurassic Park I'd love to go and kill one with a rocket launcher.

Am I a cold hearted asshole? Maybe, but I was raised in the country around farms and not in the city so that could have something to do with it.

[drunken monkey]

the thing is, i'm not agreeing with senseless slaughter;
i just can't stand it when people make half-arsed attempts at explaining their beliefs and end up regurgitating something they might've heard someone else say without having actually taken the time think if it makes sense.

there is a difference between killing something to eat and killing something for the heck of it. Don't bring in other issues because they have nothing to do what that debate.

[driftinggrifter2]

Even if this petition that you got going was to somehow make a impact and limit or wipe out totally the killing of seals then all you would do is create a blackmarket for it and people would still do it but get paid even more for doing it. the higher the risk the more it cost.

Like i said though im not cool with torturing and skinning alive but if they are not making them become extinct then i have no problem with them killing them for whatever reason.
I see more crime in deer hunting with a bow. How many people have shot a deer with a arrow and not kill the deer while the deer walks around with it sticking out of its body and bleeding.
though i do want to go bow hunting one day

[03cavPA]

Here's one for all the PETA lovers out there in AF. It was posted in another thread, in case ya missed it.

http://spikedhumor.com/articles/1062...ller_PETA.html

[Nayr747]

I really wasn't going to spend any more time on this because it's completely useless, but what the hell.

Originally Posted by stone_mound_camaro

Anyway... I just posted a simple reponse stating MY belief of man superior to beast. As opposed to YOU forcing YOUR belief down the throat of AF by creating a whole thread about man=animals.

So me expressing my viewpoint is forcing it down people's throats but you doing the same is different?

Originally Posted by stone_mound_camaro

And another thing... people that are mentally handicapped do have the capacity to learn and take tests and so on...

And so does an animal...

Originally Posted by stone_mound_camaro

ITs just that there level would be that of ...say an elementary kid.

For one thing, it's their not there. Two, I used "retarded person" as a general example to disprove, by people’s own viewpoints, that intelligence is a reason for differing moral treatment. Changing a single characteristic—intelligence—while all other characteristics remain the same (average intelligent human/lower intelligence human), does not change people’s viewpoint on the moral treatment of that person. By people's own views, intelligence does not determine differing moral treatment. Therefore intelligence has to be thrown out as any part of the argument concerning the moral treatment of animals.

Also, retarded people or people with brain damage, etc aren't all just one set level of intelligence (“elementary kid”). Depending on their particular case, humans are capable of a level of intelligence comparable to a cat or Einstein, or anything in between.

One last point: There isn't even an agreed upon definition for intelligence. Does it include things like emotional, physical, spatial intelligence, etc, etc? This has been debated for years as the intelligence tests went through many evolutions.

Originally Posted by stone_mound_camaro

Anyway, using babies and mentally disabled doenst work, because they are HUMANS and we already know that humans can think, talk, etc...

“Yes, trained apes’ language capabilities are modest by human standards. Yet their cognitive powers remain impressive. Believing that animals could not think, Descartes and other philosophers argued that they were living robots, without any moral rights. Animals, it has been said at one time or another, cannot plan, conceptualize, count, use tools, show compassion, or use language (Thorpe, 1974). Today, we know better. We have seen primates exhibit insight, show family loyalty, communicate with one another, display altruism, transmit cultural patterns across generations, and comprehend the syntax of human speech. Accepting and working out the moral implications of all this is an unfinished task for our own thinking species.” (Meyers, 2005, “Exploring Psychology”)

This btw, Yogs, is a reputable source. Unlike whatever yours is. And it is not favored towards animals either. In fact the side Myers takes on the issue of animal experimentation is in favor of it. But opinions aside, the facts remain.

Originally Posted by stone_mound_camaro

Mentally disabled people are just the small percentage that were born with problems. Its called a defect; you know what that is? Its something that stops a person or machine or w/e from working Properly.

Uh huh. Your point is?...

Originally Posted by stone_mound_camaro

And now, on to babies....they grow, learn and mature every passing day, so that was stupid to bring up anyway.

Yes, you pointed out what I already said. They are different in that characteristic, but similar in the one I was talking about—intelligence.

[Nayr747]

Now on to Yogs.

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Do you get yourself in a moral dilemma when you swat a mosquito? How about when a bug slams into your windshield? Fishing get you in a knot? I can only imagine how many protests you attend to stop the evil stage of putting a worm on a hook. Perhaps its only mammals that your concerned about, but I'm sure you have your own imaginary line about which animals are worth the same as humans and which are not.

Don’t go off on a tangent now, conjecturing that I only care about mammals. Yes, I do feel bad about all the lives—no matter how small—I take for me to live. Not taking any lives would be the most moral thing I could do but I’m just not that moral of a person. If I can spare 90% of the lives, then I have done just that—90%. That 10% is what I have accepted as necessary for me to live at this point. If I was completely unselfish I would not take any, and I hope one day I can find a way to do it. Until then I deserve the consequences of my actions, even if they are only 10% of what they would normally be.

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Swing and a miss. There is no animal other then humans who are reflective of their actions. Gorillas are creative, but not reflective. When have you seen a gorilla remorseful for something they've done? At what point did they understand their own mortality and alter their behavior because of it?

Ah, so very sad when someone puts their foot in their mouth. Read the quote above. "show family loyalty, display altruism" Your lack of knowledge on a subject does not prove anything concerning the subject.

Also, it's than not then.

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

You still haven't rebutted anything.

See above. And all previous posts...

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

You keep going to the topic of intelligence. The only thing higher intelligent in an animal gets is the ease in which humans can control its behavior.

Wtf are you trying to say???

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

So far, your proof and arguments have been pathetic. You quote people and simply say "untrue". You offer no proof, evidence or coherent thoughts. If that's all you understand then let me speak to your level. Animals = Humans. Untrue.

You're just mad because your sad excuse for an article failed to make one solid argument. And even if it did, how reputable is it if they can't even spell correctly. The hypocrisy of your statement is hilarious.

You have been right about one thing so far: My story about Gorillas does not prove their self-consciousness. It was meant to give a real life example of something that is considered common knowledge--that some animals are known to be self-conscious, or self-aware. Monkeys and Dolphins are the two examples that I know of. If you want, I will find the studies that were done to determine this. But you realize you are guilty of the same thing. You say "There are no animals that are self reflective" and then give an example in real life to prove it "When have you seen a gorilla remorseful for something they've done?" This is the exact same thing I did. And you gave no further evidence to prove your assertion. You have not proven that animals are not self-aware or self-reflective.

You just say "swing and a miss," "you did not prove anything"... Why don't you take any of my points and disprove them--with logic, evidence, whatever. Here's your chance... Or will it be another pseudo-intellectual quip with nothing behind it?

[drunken monkey]

most animals, when placed in front of a mirror will not be aware that it is themselves they are looking at.
how's that for not having an recognition or awareness of self?