Murderous Marines in Iraq

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by thrasher

I'm actually kind of appalled at a few of the reactions in here, it seems as though some here think that people who happen to live in Iraq don't have the right to live, just because they're in a war zone.

It's not that man but it's a different situation.

A marine shoots somebody and it is different. He went through an 8 week boot camp learning how to kill people. He was trained to kill and psychologically toughened so he could kill.

The government trained and prepared a person to kill. So if something happens what do you do? Did he blow a gasket? Are all of the facts straight? Did we train the wrong person on how to kill?

Don't get me wrong though, if he was just on a joy ride and did this, hang him by his balls. As I said though it's hard to train a killing machine and then get onto it when it does something wrong but was trained to do it.

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by bnaylor

Now unless it is being implied that the U.S. has a national policy or plan of knowingly and intentionally committing war crimes in which I would have to say is a ludicrous and bald assertion without merit. Anyone that believes that being a member or a participating state to the ICC will bring an end to war crimes or atrocities is in for a rude awakening. Read the fine print.

I would like to point out that senior leadership of the US government is guily of war crimes no matter how you spin the die. The war launched in Iraq was done so with the knowledge that innocent lives would be taken (knowingly and willingly as you put it), which qualifies as a war crime under UN statutes, not to mention to whole Guantanamo Bay fiasco.

Originally Posted by Muscletang

It's not that man but it's a different situation.

A marine shoots somebody and it is different. He went through an 8 week boot camp learning how to kill people. He was trained to kill and psychologically toughened so he could kill.

The government trained and prepared a person to kill. So if something happens what do you do? Did he blow a gasket? Are all of the facts straight? Did we train the wrong person on how to kill?

Don't get me wrong though, if he was just on a joy ride and did this, hang him by his balls. As I said though it's hard to train a killing machine and then get onto it when it does something wrong but was trained to do it.

Just because they have been trained to kill doesn't excuse their misuse of force and murder of innocent people, if that is what really happened. They're still humans and they should be expected to use some sort of rational behavior like the rest of us.

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by thrasher

Just because they have been trained to kill doesn't excuse their misuse of force and murder of innocent people, if that is what really happened. They're still humans and they should be expected to use some sort of rational behavior like the rest of us.

The best thing anyone has said in this thread so far.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by thrasher

I would like to point out that senior leadership of the US government is guily of war crimes no matter how you spin the die. The war launched in Iraq was done so with the knowledge that innocent lives would be taken (knowingly and willingly as you put it), which qualifies as a war crime under UN statutes, not to mention to whole Guantanamo Bay fiasco.

You are entitled to your opinion but that is total nonsense. Blaming the leadership is one thing but don't blame the troops. And I could care less about the U.N.

[drewh4386]

Well military members are held to a higher standard because of the whole bootcamp thing so a lot of things become untolerable. Killing civillians/innocent people is one. But I will say those rules don't apply to the ones in iraq kidnapping and cutting americans heads off. I wonder what the real point is.

Oh and one more thing.......

there is a different between being trained to kill and being train to kill in defense for a country.

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by drewh4386

there is a different between being trained to kill and being train to kill in defense for a country.

No there isn't.

Killing is killing, no matter how you justify it.

[driftinggrifter2]

^agreed


sort of the same deal
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060601/...q_women_killed

and we wonder why their starting not to like us

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by driftinggrifter2

and we wonder why their starting not to like us

What do you mean starting?
The world hasn't liked you since that little revolution you staged with the help of the sneaky French.
I blame the French.

[drewh4386]

oh yeah? hmmm..,

let me put it in better terms.

there is a difference in going on a killing spree opposed to having orders to kill.

not taking any defense for knuckle head marines but, I don't care what defines killing. With myself almost having to goto iraq, I think what goes on in other countries regarding war should be left up to the people fighting them.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by drewh4386

there is a difference in going on a killing spree opposed to having orders to kill.

two things.
yes there is a difference between the two but still, at some point the soldier has to take some responsibility. If not, then killing a 6 year old child might be considered an alright thing to do because it was an order?

from what i gather, this particular mess involves mysterious deaths of civilians that someone appeared to have attempted to hide. If it was a simple order gone wrong then it shouldn't have been hushed. I think part of the problem is that no one seems to knows the truth and no one seems to be willing to give any.

[tenguzero]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060602/ts_nm/iraq_dc_185

Of course I hold those (Marines, in this case) who directly committed the acts responsible for what they did. But I also have NO hesitation about casting clear blame upon the leadership.

I think one of the (many) things that pisses me off the most about this war, is the frequent use of phrases ending in "...so it will never happen again." Now, I understand there is a certain bit of the unknown in just about everything we do in life, and war is no different. However, one would at least hope that in this world of war for fun and profit, the aggressors on both sides would at least try and minimize the "what if"s -- if not for the sake of those would be caught in the middle, then AT LEAST for the sake of their OWN cause (be it justified or unjustified.)

Everytime I read an article about some other fiasco that took place, I know inevitably I will come across the dreaded "...so it will never happen again" phrase. If there's one thing I've learned about people (and societies in general) it's that the greatest failing of most is the failure to really LEARN from their past mistakes, and incorporate what they learned so as to proactively affect change -- as opposed to retroactively apologizing, calling in damage control, and issuing a half-assed "...never happen again." To me, incidences like this merely serve to further underscore our complete and total unpreparedness for this war. Here we (the US) are, some 3 years, 2400+ casualties, and hundreds of billions of dollars into this war, and they're just now initiating "ethics training"? Give me a F***ing break!

"Alright men! This is a new situation. We're going to be fighting insurgents and terrorists who will blend in with local civilians. You will be going from house-to-house and fighting these people on their own turf, surrounded by women and children and a crippled infrastructure that has tensions high. You will be interviewing witnesses, mingling with the locals, working around children, and confronting situations of intense stress and hazard. Now, here are your assault rifles, frag grenades, and all other standard-issue ordnance. You will be supported by soldiers in tanks (with giant guns), helicopters (with devastating missiles), and special forces units equipped with the latest and greatest in high-tech warfare to bring the pain to the bad guys! NOW, CAN I GET A HOO-RAH!!"

3 years later:

"This week we're announcing classes in ethics training..."


Does anyone else see a problem with this? You know, from the beginning there have been so many supporters of this war absolutely berating those who insisted the whole approach to this just smacked of "cowboy policy". It seems to me that the events that have unfolded time and again have only served to illustrate that the term "cowboy" was, at best, far too weak. And do you know what the worst part of this is? It will happen again. And again they will say they're instituting some new practice to insure "it will never happen again." Funny though, that it seems most of these blunders are a result of common-sense errors that should have never been a concern in the first place. I mean, for crying out loud -- the troops are heavily dependent on interpreters, they don't know the culture, and they're only just now being given "ethics training." If we really are intent on "winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people", we sure are going about it in a pretty shitty way.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

3 years later:

"This week we're announcing classes in ethics training..."


Does anyone else see a problem with this? You know, from the beginning there have been so many supporters of this war absolutely berating those who insisted the whole approach to this just smacked of "cowboy policy". It seems to me that the events that have unfolded time and again have only served to illustrate that the term "cowboy" was, at best, far too weak. And do you know what the worst part of this is? It will happen again. And again they will say they're instituting some new practice to insure "it will never happen again." Funny though, that it seems most of these blunders are a result of common-sense errors that should have never been a concern in the first place. I mean, for crying out loud -- the troops are heavily dependent on interpreters, they don't know the culture, and they're only just now being given "ethics training." If we really are intent on "winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people", we sure are going about it in a pretty shitty way.

How do you know what training is received by our military including the Marine Corps? Have you ever served in any of the U.S. Armed Forces? Your assumptions are invalid.

It is quite obvious you know nothing about the U.S. Military and what training they receive in basic soldering and core values. The training includes ethics, the Code of Conduct, the Law of War and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Also, they get in country training on the ways and customs on the indigenous population which includes basic language skills and culture.

The civilian and military leadership is doing the right thing by emphasizing ethics although it sounds like they are just trying to cover their rear ends. It should have been called "Ethics Revisited" or Ethics Retraining". It may not prevent something like this from happening in the future but IMO it is better than nothing and is a reminder to our men and woman in uniform that they are not above the law and will be held accountable.

When I was in the service I had over 40 classroom hours on ethics alone and the classes start with how the U.S. screwed up in Viet Nam and the My Lai incident. Also, I can speak enough Arabic to carry on a fairly decent conversation all courtesy of my military training. I speak from experience not speculation.

BTW - History has a tendency to repeat itself.

[drewh4386]

Originally Posted by bnaylor

How do you know what training is received by our military including the Marine Corps? Have you ever served in any of the U.S. Armed Forces? Your assumptions are invalid.

It is quite obvious you know nothing about the U.S. Military and what training they receive in basic soldering and core values. The training includes ethics, the Code of Conduct, the Law of War and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Also, they get in country training on the ways and customs on the indigenous population which includes basic language skills and culture.

The civilian and military leadership is doing the right thing by emphasizing ethics although it sounds like they are just trying to cover their rear ends. It should have been called "Ethics Revisited" or Ethics Retraining". It may not prevent something like this from happening in the future but IMO it is better than nothing and is a reminder to our men and woman in uniform that they are not above the law and will be held accountable.

When I was in the service I had over 40 classroom hours on ethics alone and the classes start with how the U.S. screwed up in Viet Nam and the My Lai incident. Also, I can speak enough Arabic to carry on a fairly decent conversation all courtesy of my military training. I speak from experience not speculation.

BTW - History has a tendency to repeat itself.

I like the post!


but look at this......http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060602/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by drewh4386

I like the post!


but look at this......http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060602/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl

The investigaition found that they did nothing wrong. Isn't that what an investigation is supposed to help determine?