Murderous Marines in Iraq

[thrasher]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12990567/page/2/

WASHINGTON - Investigators believe that their criminal investigation into the deaths of about two dozen Iraqi civilians points toward a conclusion that Marines committed unprovoked murders, a senior defense official said Friday.
The Marine Corps initially reported 15 deaths and said they were caused by a roadside bomb and an ensuing firefight with insurgents. A separate investigation is seeking to determine if Marines lied to cover up the killings.
The official, who discussed the matter on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the yet-to-be-completed investigation, said the evidence developed by investigators strongly indicates the killings last November in the insurgent-plagued city of Haditha in the western province of Anbar were unjustified.

The official did not disclose specific evidence. The incident, if confirmed, could be the most serious case of criminal misconduct by U.S. troops during three years of combat in Iraq. A spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters in the Pentagon, Lt. Col. Scott Fazekas, declined to comment on the status of the investigation. He said no information would be provided until the probe was completed. According to a congressional aide, lawmakers were told in a briefing Thursday that it appears as many as two dozen civilians were killed. And they were told that the investigation will find that “it will be clear that this was not the result of an accident or a normal combat situation.”

Another congressional official said lawmakers were told it would be about 30 days before a report would be issued by the investigating agency, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service. Pentagon spokesman Eric Ruff said Friday he believes the investigation is winding down, but he would not comment on what the evidence shows. Ruff would not characterize the extent of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld’s concern about the matter, but said he is being kept apprised of the investigations. Ruff said he did not expect any announcements in the next few days.

The Los Angeles Times reported on Friday that investigators have concluded that the Marines killed unarmed civilians, including women and children, at Haditha last November, and that they tried to cover it up. the New York Times reported on Friday that two lawyers involved in discussions about individual Marines’ defenses said they thought the investigation could result in murder charges. The lawyers were not identified. On Thursday, The Washington Times reported that defense lawyers expect the Marines to file murder charges against at least one Marine involved in the incident.

Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said last week that he was told by Marine Corps officials that the civilians were killed “in cold blood.” He said there were nearly twice as many killed as the 15 initially reported by the Marines. General warns against callousness On Thursday, Marine Corps Commandant Gen. Michael W. Hagee flew to Iraq to warn his troops against allowing the unrelenting insurgent violence to leave them callous to human suffering and the loss of life. “We do not employ force just for the sake of employing force. We use lethal force only when justified, proportional and, most importantly, lawful,” Hagee wrote in a statement issued by his office. Aides said it was the basis of remarks he intended to make to Marines in Iraq this week.

The military initially described the Haditha encounter as an ambush during a joint U.S.-Iraqi patrol that involved a roadside bombing in which a Marine died, followed by a firefight. However, residents of the neighborhood maintained that only U.S. forces were shooting after the explosion.
Story continues below ↓ advertisement On Wednesday, the Marines disclosed that they also have asked for a criminal investigation into allegations that an unspecified number of Marines killed an Iraqi civilian west of Baghdad on April 26. It is the second allegation of Marines killing civilians in recent months.
“Many of our Marines have been involved in life or death combat or have witnessed the loss of their fellow Marines, and the effects of these events can be numbing,” Hagee said in his statement. “There is the risk of becoming indifferent to the loss of a human life, as well as bringing dishonor upon ourselves.”

“To a Marine, honor is more than just honesty; it means having uncompromising personal integrity and being accountable for all actions,” Hagee said. He urged all Marines to have the moral courage to “do the ‘right thing’ in the face of danger or pressure from other Marines.” He referred to “recent serious allegations about actions of Marines in combat,” but he did not specifically cite the two cases — one from last November and the other in April — of alleged killings of civilians.

In Wednesday’s announcement of the latest criminal investigation, Marine officials said a preliminary probe had found enough information to recommend a full investigation by the Naval Criminal Investigation Service. The Marine Corps provided no details about the alleged killing, including either the gender or age of the victim. It said “several service members” from the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, based in the Fallujah area about 40 miles west of Baghdad, were suspected of involvement. They were “removed from operations” and sent back to the U.S. pending the results of the criminal investigation, it said. John Sifton, a counterterrorism researcher with the Human Rights Watch, said his group’s review of available information on the Haditha attack leads him to conclude there is no room for doubt that it was a case of murder. “This was an intentional killing of unarmed civilians,” Sifton said.

Both the House and Senate armed services committees plan to hold hearings on the matter. Hagee met with top lawmakers from those panels this week and discussed the November and April incidents.

So if the Marines are found guilty, what should be done with them? Death penalty? I find it appalling that anyone would kill innocent civilians for absolutely no reason, and quite frankly I hope those Marines are crucified for this, if it found that they actually killed unarmed civilians.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by thrasher

So if the Marines are found guilty, what should be done with them? Death penalty? I find it appalling that anyone would kill innocent civilians for absolutely no reason, and quite frankly I hope those Marines are crucified for this, if it found that they actually killed unarmed civilians.

It depends on the situation. Why did they kill them if they did? Was there a misunderstanding or did somebody just kill somebody and say "FUCK! Look at that camel jocky's head blow to shit!"

This isn't unheard of though. Anybody remember Vietnam? Of course this makes me wonder why back then this stuff happened every single day and it was just left to happen. Today you just mention it while you're in the service and the press is all over you.

[03cavPA]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

This isn't unheard of though. Anybody remember Vietnam? Of course this makes me wonder why back then this stuff happened every single day and it was just left to happen. Today you just mention it while you're in the service and the press is all over you.

Yup, first thought that came to me was: My Lai.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by thrasher

So if the Marines are found guilty, what should be done with them? Death penalty? I find it appalling that anyone would kill innocent civilians for absolutely no reason, and quite frankly I hope those Marines are crucified for this, if it found that they actually killed unarmed civilians.

First off before they are found quilty the Marines should be given due process and are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). If the Article 32 investigation results shows wrongdoing to include murder then the Marines responsible should be courtmartialed. If found guilty under Article 118 they can get the death penalty or life in prison.

Plus any serious violation of the law of war is a technically a war crime if it violates the Geneva or Hague Conventions.

[YogsVR4]

If they are guilty of cold blooded murder, then they should be executed like any other criminal should be.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

If they are guilty of cold blooded murder, then they should be executed like any other criminal should be.

While I agree the Marines found guilty should be given the death penalty there are always mitigating circumstances in battle. They were serving their country, on a military mission, and were not ordinary criminals off the street. It is a different story when you are in the heat of battle and parts of your buddy winds up in your lap. These Marines were under a lot of mental and emotional stress. The Marine (Terrazas) killed by the improvised explosive device (IED) was well liked and very popular with his fellow Marines. His death touched off this incident. He was from my home town and a good kid.

Terrazas was the one killed in cold blood. Who will vindicate him and will justice ever be served in his case?

I'll wait until the facts are in before making a rush to judgment.

[Shpyder]

My cousin, a hardcore Marine grunt stationed in Iraq for a year, told me some of the stuff he saw while he was there. The world has no clue what goes on in the field at ground level...it is terrible. But a war's a war. And all war's bring with them desecration of innocent lives.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by bnaylor

I'll wait until the facts are in before making a rush to judgment.

I think just about everyone agrees with that approach.

[Mr Wiggl3s]

This shouldn't be a discussion unless you have actually been over in Iraq, and seen what they saw. Its easy to sit here and say "those marines are killing innocent people" but when you dont know who is who, then things change
Kill or be killed is what it is

[Toksin]

Originally Posted by Mr Wiggl3s

This shouldn't be a discussion unless you have actually been over in Iraq, and seen what they saw. Its easy to sit here and say "those marines are killing innocent people" but when you dont know who is who, then things change
Kill or be killed is what it is

Oh you've been there have you?

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=wtmusic

"When we were doing the night raids in the houses, we would pull people out and have them all on their knees and zip-tied. We would ask the man of the house questions. If he didn't answer the way we liked, we would shoot his youngest kid in the head. We would keep going, this was our interrogation. He could be innocent. He could be just an average Joe trying to support his family. If he didn't give us a satisfactory answer, we'd start killing off his family until he told us something. If he didn't know anything, I guess he was SOL."

Yeah, sounds real noble.


*edit* dammit, link doesn't work anymore

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by Toksin

Oh you've been there have you?

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=wtmusic


Yeah, sounds real noble.


*edit* dammit, link doesn't work anymore

The video still isn't up but the comments are. It appears this was a fake.

Exposed I ran a check on all army rangers who served in oif and oef and your name did not come up. Second get your facts straight rangers dont do long deployments maybe a month at most.

He is not in any of the units ever listed and the awards he claims are impossible for him to have ever earned. He is a fraud.

Now I haven't seen the video so I don't know. Yes, this could happen over there but from the sounds of it this is done all the time. With as many reporters that are in Iraq I doubt they could get away with it. It would get out eventually.

[Toksin]

Muscletang: thanks for that. It was a hurried post so I didn't get time to read the comments or check anything. Cheers


Still, things like that are still happening over there.

It's just things like this along with the US's reluctance to sign up for the international criminal court that makes people angry - basically it says that they don't want their soldiers liable to be prosecuted for war crimes (leaving them free to commit them).

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by Mr Wiggl3s

This shouldn't be a discussion unless you have actually been over in Iraq, and seen what they saw. Its easy to sit here and say "those marines are killing innocent people" but when you dont know who is who, then things change
Kill or be killed is what it is

That's a shit poor excuse for killing unarmed, innocent civilians...plain and simple. I guess it's okay then that terrorists would crash planes into buildings since they are in the midst of a holy war. Just because it's a war and because the Marines have witnessed unspeakable atrocities does not authorize the Marines to commit atrocities themselves.

Originally Posted by Toksin

Muscletang: thanks for that. It was a hurried post so I didn't get time to read the comments or check anything.


Still, things like that are still happening over there.

It's just things like this along with the US's reluctance to sign up for the international criminal court that makes people angry - basically it says that they don't want their soldiers liable to be prosecuted for war crimes (leaving them free to commit them).

Yep, things like this ARE happening, and they do need to be stopped. I'm actually kind of appalled at a few of the reactions in here, it seems as though some here think that people who happen to live in Iraq don't have the right to live, just because they're in a war zone.

[YogsVR4]

Dave - its not to say that our service people are free to commit war crimes. The ICC would trump our constitution and that won't happen.

I'll restate the obvious and wait for information from the investigations.

[BNaylor]

I don't see how the ICC would be a remedy and I can see why the U.S. is not a signatory. Also, it is interesting to note that neither China or Russia are members. IMO our military justice system looks like it would be more effective and timely bringing the perps to justice and the victims getting redress.

For example if you review the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court it looks like there would be a major jurisdictional issue regarding whether the ICC would have jurisdiction of the incident in Iraq.

Article 8 (War Crimes)

The Court shall have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes in particular when committed as part of a plan or policy or as part of a large scale commission of such crimes.

Now unless it is being implied that the U.S. has a national policy or plan of knowingly and intentionally committing war crimes in which I would have to say is a ludicrous and bald assertion without merit. Anyone that believes that being a member or a participating state to the ICC will bring an end to war crimes or atrocities is in for a rude awakening. Read the fine print.