The Silent War

[AlmostStock]

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

I personally don't give a damn how much it upsets foreign citizens when they come to MY country and see me displaying MY flag. If they don't like it, they can go back home. Now that you mention it, this is a good reason to display the flag even more than I already do. I hope it pisses every one of them off so much they can't stand it.

I'm sure the schools think they're doing something to avoid the inevitable confrontations between the different groups of students on campus (on the face of it, it doesn't sound like a bad idea at the time, but it's still a crock).

I'd like to see some students with well-connected parents exercise their rights as US citizens and display the flag as they please, then challenge it in court when they are disciplined for it. Yet another lawsuit-happy thought, huh?

Since the school ban on wearing or displaying the US flag was one of Fred's opening points, I wanted to address it. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only "banning of the flag" going on here is with students while they are at school. Obviously it has (momentarily) become a big distraction to students who need to be focused on their studies, instead of on all this crazy protesting. As distasteful as it may be, I have no problem with it. It really is not much different in my opinion than when schools need to outlaw gang colors, short skirts (damn it) or other distractions. Although it wasn't mentioned, I'm sure the schools aren't allowing the Mexican flag either... for the same reasons. Once all this protesting crap has blown over the ban can be lifted.

[Gohan Ryu]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

Employers have to pass this savings on to consumers or we won't buy their product or service. Supply and demand. The companies offering the best value win our dollar. Others fall by the wayside. So in this respect you can't say there is no benefit to us.

Can you name any specific product? Because I can name several companies who were cited for illegal labor practices who still overcharge for their goods.

Nike being the first one to come to mind. They pay their workers overseas $5 a day to produce shoes that cost consumers $100+. The garment industry is the same. Downtown L.A. is the heart of the garment district in So Cal. Several designer labels are produced here by illegal workers earning below minimun wages, but prices for designer clothing continue to reach ridiculous amounts...$200 for a pair of jeans made by an illegal earning $3 an hour? Who keeps all of that money?

Food preparation? I've been to several restaurants who employ illegals as their kitchen staff, and I've been to several restaurants who do not. Their prices don't reflect the wages paid to their staff - prices reflect the quality of the food.

If the product is in demand they make more and they charge more...that is the concept behind "Supply and Demand"...not cheap labor.

It's a moot point anyway - as of this morning it looks like congress is going to let the bill drop.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

It's not really a race thing at all, but a national thing. The fact that the bulk of the illegals are Hispanic is defined by geography. I'm sure that there are lots of illegals of all races coming across.

Thats an understatement. But I agree it is not a race issue. However, it is an issue that has a lot of Americans concerned and has taken over the limelight over the War in Iraq. It is a national political issue. The illegals are all over this country. Mexicans account for at least 80% of the illegals. Other than going out and protesting they don't have any clout whatsoever. Illegals cannot vote. And many of the Hispanics that can vote do not. They will account for only 12% of the electorate and therefore, still a minority. There are an estimated 40 million legal and illegal Hispanics in the U.S.

The politicians need to beware. The backlash this November and in the 2008 Presidential elections could come from mainstream America. For example the Republican Party can find itself in a bind if it loses its political base and grass roots followers in an effort to get the Hispanic vote or help enact legislation that gives the store away.

The majority of Americans do not support illegal immigration but in the meantime many of us have opened our eyes. The protests have made more of us aware and many see the issue as a national security issue over Iraq. The major difference is illegal immigration is in our backyard, here, and a clear and present danger. Before I vote in the future I will certainly make an inquiry as to the candidate's position on immigration.

[AlmostStock]

Originally Posted by Gohan Ryu

Can you name any specific product? Because I can name several companies who were cited for illegal labor practices who still overcharge for their goods.

Nike being the first one to come to mind. They pay their workers overseas $5 a day to produce shoes that cost consumers $100+. The garment industry is the same. Downtown L.A. is the heart of the garment district in So Cal. Several designer labels are produced here by illegal workers earning below minimun wages, but prices for designer clothing continue to reach ridiculous amounts...$200 for a pair of jeans made by an illegal earning $3 an hour? Who keeps all of that money?

Food preparation? I've been to several restaurants who employ illegals as their kitchen staff, and I've been to several restaurants who do not. Their prices don't reflect the wages paid to their staff - prices reflect the quality of the food.

If the product is in demand they make more and they charge more...that is the concept behind "Supply and Demand"...not cheap labor.

Supply and demand was a poor choice of words on my part. COMPETITION would be much more accurate for the point I am making. Any way a company can lower it's selling price, gives it an advantage over its competitors, since consumers will always flock to the best value. Sure a few specialty markets may get away with your $200 designer jeans example, but that's the exception. By and large, competition will demand that they pass on it least some (many times most) of this savings to us, or we'll go somewhere else where they will.

Examples are everywhere. We may choose a nice looking motel because it is $20 cheaper than the one across the street. Maybe part of the reason is because Maria the maid and Juan the maintenance technician are not legal workers. Joe Average will go to speedy lube for an oil change because it's $5 cheaper than the next place, and $20 less expensive than the dealer. Is Pedro a legal worker? I shopped for a stainless steel exhaust system on line and went with the best price. Is the warehouse guy pulling my order legal? I don't know, but in every case above someone saved money. Like it or not, most markets are just too tight competition wise to say that we are not benefiting with lower prices because of illegal labor.

[tenguzero]

I still can't buy into the idea of illegals actually making a major difference in the marketplace. In addition to the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post, I'll point out one big, glaring example: today. Across the country right now, probably half a million immigrants are out in force protesting and marching and demonstrating and boycotting. And what has it done? Has the American economy ground to a screeching halt? Has the stock market crashed? Have businesses been forced to close their doors? Have restaurants stopped serving?

No.

Sure, maybe some dishes are piling a little higher than usual, perhaps some shoddy deckwork is sitting untouched in a guy's backyard, maybe some office employees are faced with the monumental task of having to empty out their own damn wastebasket and keep their restrooms cleaner through their own initiative, but hey -- business marches on. Why? Because the people that actually mean a damn to the economy are AT WORK -- BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF JUST "PROTESTING" ALL DAY!!

That's why these protesters don't mean a damn to me, because these are the LAST people that should be influencing the direction of domestic policy -- and yet we're being lead to believe that this is some huge, important movement. These people don't see an opening to bring about positive change -- they see an opening to stir up trouble. This is not the great civil rights or women's rights movements, this is a movement for the right to freeload.

Boot them out, institute real border enforcement practices, then reform the current mess of an immigration process to make it easier and more affordable for people to move through it, then let them come back in legally. It's not going to kill them to start over and do it the right way. Everyone deserves the chance to be a part of America, but if your first act upon coming into this country was to break a federal law, what the hell do we owe you? If your country is so horrible that illegally entering a neighboring one and demanding amnesty is the only option for you and your family, then why don't you take all that energy and flag-waving "pride" for your nationality, and direct the energy towards FIXING YOUR OWN DAMN COUNTRY!

What a bunch of f***ing hypocrites.

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

I still can't buy into the idea of illegals actually making a major difference in the marketplace. In addition to the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post, I'll point out one big, glaring example: today. Across the country right now, probably half a million immigrants are out in force protesting and marching and demonstrating and boycotting. And what has it done? Has the American economy ground to a screeching halt? Has the stock market crashed? Have businesses been forced to close their doors? Have restaurants stopped serving?

No.

Sure, maybe some dishes are piling a little higher than usual, perhaps some shoddy deckwork is sitting untouched in a guy's backyard, maybe some office employees are faced with the monumental task of having to empty out their own damn wastebasket and keep their restrooms cleaner through their own initiative, but hey -- business marches on. Why? Because the people that actually mean a damn to the economy are AT WORK -- BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF JUST "PROTESTING" ALL DAY!!

That's why these protesters don't mean a damn to me, because these are the LAST people that should be influencing the direction of domestic policy -- and yet we're being lead to believe that this is some huge, important movement. These people don't see an opening to bring about positive change -- they see an opening to stir up trouble. This is not the great civil rights or women's rights movements, this is a movement for the right to freeload.

Boot them out, institute real border enforcement practices, then reform the current mess of an immigration process to make it easier and more affordable for people to move through it, then let them come back in legally. It's not going to kill them to start over and do it the right way. Everyone deserves the chance to be a part of America, but if your first act upon coming into this country was to break a federal law, what the hell do we owe you? If your country is so horrible that illegally entering a neighboring one and demanding amnesty is the only option for you and your family, then why don't you take all that energy and flag-waving "pride" for your nationality, and direct the energy towards FIXING YOUR OWN DAMN COUNTRY!

What a bunch of f***ing hypocrites.

A-fucking-MEN!

And amen to a lot of the posts in here, with the exception of AlmostStock's.

[AlmostStock]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

I still can't buy into the idea of illegals actually making a major difference in the marketplace. In addition to the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post, I'll point out one big, glaring example: today. Across the country right now, probably half a million immigrants are out in force protesting and marching and demonstrating and boycotting. And what has it done? Has the American economy ground to a screeching halt? Has the stock market crashed? Have businesses been forced to close their doors? Have restaurants stopped serving?

No.

The amount of protesters is small compared to the amount still working, and it's only a couple days. I wouldn't expect a big difference.

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

A-fucking-MEN!

And amen to a lot of the posts in here, with the exception of AlmostStock's.

Why? Just because I pointed out a marketplace reality? Please demonstrate how lower costs for businesses doesn't equate to lower costs for consumers.

I never said I approved of the practice, or that illegals should be allowed to stay. (even though they will be) The best course now is to start controlling the border, and legalize the ones that are here. (again, sigh) If you disagree, please show us a workable plan for the ever popular "Round 'em all up and send 'em home". It seems logistically and financially impossible to me, and our leaders must agree, since none of them (that I'm aware off) are even considering such action.

The illegals shouldn't be protesting it's true. This is really what has everybody pissed off.

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

The amount of protesters is small compared to the amount still working, and it's only a couple days. I wouldn't expect a big difference.

I'm too busy right now at work to go into detail, but then again, there is no need. Your statements have been rebutted efficiently in this thread.

[Gohan Ryu]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

Why? Just because I pointed out a marketplace reality? Please demonstrate how lower costs for businesses doesn't equate to lower costs for consumers.

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

Maybe part of the reason is because Maria the maid and Juan the maintenance technician are not legal workers.....Is Pedro a legal worker? Is the warehouse guy pulling my order legal? I don't know, but in every case above someone saved money.

You use words like maybe and I don't know....That is not "pointing out a marketplace reality" - you are guessing.

From a business standpoint all companies are trying to make the most money possible while spending the least. They aren't in the business of "passing the savings on", they are in the business of making money. This is not the exception, this is the rule. A truly generous company owner who actually does pass savings on is the exception...they are few and far between. Less expensive products are cheaper because of the quality of the product or the overhead costs of running the business, not the salary of the person who made it.

...and to further demonstrate (in addition to the Nike and the garment industry and the food service industry examples): When I go to Las Vegas and stay at a new expensive hotel (let's use WYNN as an example)...I see Latino (presumably illegal) employees cleaning rooms and carrying luggage, yet it's still expensive to stay there because of the quality of the hotel. Whether it's John Smith or Juan Diaz cleaning my room, they don't charge me any more or less.

When I go to Las Vegas and stay at a cheap hotel I still see illegals cleaning rooms and the price is less expensive...but not because Maria and Juan are there, it's because the hotel is of lower quality.

...and Quality is the key word. When you order from an online company the cost is usually cheaper because of lower quality products. Or if it's a high-quality name brand product the cost is cheaper because the supplier has no overhead (being an internet company all they need is a warehouse). Most discount automotive suppliers I've seen on the internet are located in the mid-west, where there aren't as many illegals. So most likely it was Billy-Joe Bob who loaded your order, not Juan.

[TexasF355F1]

Michael Savage made a good point today. He brought up the fact that the media/protestors have now turned this into a race issue. He went on to say that if it were whites, blacks, asians so on it wouldn't have been allowed to progress like this. Going further he said I don't see anyone else out there but hispanics, no one else. These people obviously have no jobs otherwise they wouldn't be able to be protesting. The ones who are the hard workers are too busy trying to make a dollar, and don't want to get fired.It goes into more detail but he just kept making the most obvoius points that don't even a word in the media.

This morning a lady called into a morning AM show that was talking about this and said she had to sit in a waiting room full of people who did not speak a lick of english for over 8 hours. She wound up in ICU for well over a month and in the hospital for 3. So obviously she was extremely ill when she went in. But she was pissed off that she was paying for all these other people that weren't as bad off as she was and she got last in line. Pretty f-d up.

[tenguzero]

The real kicker in all this, is the fact that no one can really pin all of this on one person -- because we're all responsible. The illegals are taking advantage of a system that's already riddled with holes.

1. The restaurant owner or construction company boss or whomever who willingly hire the illegals (and then get away with it by shrugging their shoulders and saying "I checked their papers, and I can't help it if they were forged" -- bullshit, asshole. If a guy named Juan Miguel who can barely speak english is willing to work for $4 an hour washing your messy dishes, I would think that might throw up a few red flags.)

2. The politicians who keep all of this tied up in red tape, constantly bickering amongst themselves to hold their own party's line, as opposed to getting together and facing the problem as a united front. Sure, blame the damn liberals, blame that bastard Bush, blame the party across the aisle from you. It's everyone's fault but your own. Meanwhile, while you useless shits are sitting in your nice suits, stalling any measures because you're bickering amongst each other for the sake of votes and pure ignorance, how many illegals are tap-dancing their way across the border, in hopes of getting into the country in time to catch amnesty -- or at the very worst get their own shot at a piece of the pie because nothing ended up changing as a result of ineptitude on the lawmakers part.

3. The various departments in charge of enforcing the current laws. You know, it's funny how there is all this wrangling over new laws to deal with immigration and illegals, when the current laws to control illegal entry are generally pretty serviceable -- it's just that no one actually bothers to friggin' enforce them. I was listening to a radio show last year, and they were talking about this issue, and several people called up who owned their own business. One was telling of how he had an applicant for a position who was HIGHLY questionable at best, and when he (the employer) called in the applicant's SS number, the operator on the other end came back and said it was not valid -- then asked him if there was anything else she could do for him. That's it! No "get more information from him so we can track him down." No "let me check and see if someone else might have that number." Just "nope, that's not valid -- anything else I can do for you?" Hell, if these agencies really gave two shits, they would be down at these rallies and protests with buses just rounding up these illegals by the hundreds. Would it be worthwhile in the end? Probably not -- but at least they were doing SOMETHING.

And what can we, the average citizen really do in the end? What the f*** can I do about it; "call my congressman"? Right. Ultimately we're the ones that get the biggest boning, because we're the ones working 40, 50, 60 or more hours a week just to keep food on our tables, clothes on our back, heat in our house, and maybe help our children afford the soaring costs of college, or build some sort of retirement for ourselves. We're the ones who are stuck with the bill when we get broadsided by some illegal who doesn't even have a driver's license, nevermind auto insurance. Meanwhile our politicians make big bucks from lobbyists, pork-barrel spending, and special interest groups -- and all these politicians have to do is sit around on their ass and spend everyday arguing with each other and getting nothing done. Our federal agencies are staffed by a bunch of nitwits who couldn't care less that John in Newark, New Jersey is calling them to confirm the status of a what turns out to be a fake social security number on the part of one of his applicants. And the illegal immigrants spend a couple decades here, tucked safely under the radar -- making as much money as they can, milking off whatever they can get from the system to help keep them afloat, and living 10 or 15 to a house. Hell, it's not like they give a rat's ass how many people they live with now -- they only have to put up with it for a decade or two. Then they can pocket all their gains, and waltz back over the border to rejoin their family flush with all the money they'd been sent back -- and now they can go retire at some quaint place on the Mexican coast, living out their days under the sun sipping Tequilla. Meanwhile I'm trying to pay off mounds of school debt and keep up with the cost of living -- nevermind even thinking about what I might do down the line if I want a family or retirement.

All this talk about "the American dream" for these people, and I can't help but wonder -- what about the American dream for an American?

[carrrnuttt]

I will sum my thoughts on this matter with one sentence:

"Why the fuck can't they go protest in fucking Mexico, the REASON they are having to come here illegally in the 1st place?"

[03cavPA]

Originally Posted by TexasF355F1

Michael Savage made a good point today. He brought up the fact that the media/protestors have now turned this into a race issue.

If you ask me, the idiots parroting the race issue are the REAL racists in this country. I really think a lot of us would like to try to get along with everybody, but the racemongers won't let us. It's funny how it never takes very long to pin every little thing on race. Hell, look how fast some moron tried to tell us that talking about laws and lawbreakers made us all racists.

We're talking about people who are BREAKING THE LAW, and now we've been told the real reason we're upset is because they're of a different racial makeup. Screw that; I've had it up to here with pinheads pulling out that lame-ass race card, because it's the only thing they can come up with.

Teng has some very good things to say. I'd say he nailed down the national angst a lot of us are grinding on about. I'm not an advocate of violence, but watch some disenchanted nutcase climb up in a tower somewhere and start blasting away at the next protest. The damn government better start taking this stuff a lot more seriously.

[BNaylor]

IMO they just wasted their time and effort protesting, especially this past Monday. For example my city (El Paso) is around 600,000 population and it is at least 80% Hispanic. However, only an estimated 2000 protested along with 50 counter-protestors. For a change the media covered the counter-protestors quite well. Most of them were anti-illegal immigrant and Hispanic of Mexican descent which echoes the sentiment of most Hispanics in my area.

Now the Pro-Illegal Immigrant people plan on walkouts and boycotts on May 1 to show their alleged influence. I am curious to see how that pans out.