The Silent War

[fredjacksonsan]

There is a silent war being waged against the US. It's recently hit the media as a "debate". This war is the influx of illegals into the country.

Recently, some high schools in CO, AZ, and CA have banned the use, wearing or display of the American Flag because it is upsetting to immigrants.

If you can't display your own flag in your own country, something is very, very wrong.

I have no issue with people moving to any country they desire, but it must be done legally.

When people are sneaking into a country, and then demanding rights while taking away the rights of the legal citizens of that country, it is a problem that needs to be addressed, regardless of what country the people come from, or what country they move to.

IMO part of the possible solution is to post signage (in numerous languages) on the border. These signs would indicate the nearest legal entry point where people should cross. It would also indicate that if they were detected beyond the signs, that they would be shot as invaders. Make the language very very clear. Then follow through. Giving an illegal a hot meal and a ride back to their own country so they can try again is sheer folly.

In addition to the (arguably extreme) method above, institute fines for any business, person, or entity that employs a foreign national without the proper documents. If the fine were a minumum of $10,000.00 for each infraction, the practice of hiring illegals would cease, and quickly, if the law was enforced.

The argument that not allowing illegals into the country would hurt the economy is invalid. There will always be a pool of individuals to do the work. If someone wants to work in another country, all they need to do is secure the proper paperwork to do so.

In a neighborhood where I once lived, there was a 3 bedroom house. In this house were 14 illegal aliens, all male, all working construction. They all used the same Social Security number to report income.

There are also documented cases of aged illegals moving to the US, applying for Social Security, getting it, then moving back to their country of origin while collecting Social Security.

This post has many aspects of the situation not initially discussed, such as taxation, public services, citizenship of children born to illegals, educational and other rights, and more.

Further discussion welcomed.

[AlmostStock]

Thanks for the start of what I hope to be a good thread on such a controversial matter.

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

IMO part of the possible solution is to post signage (in numerous languages) on the border. These signs would indicate the nearest legal entry point where people should cross. It would also indicate that if they were detected beyond the signs, that they would be shot as invaders. Make the language very very clear.

Considering the nationwide (and worldwide) outcry that would rise up against this type of action, I don't see it as being a serious option. Are there any leaders endorsing this type of radical action? I doubt it.

In addition to the (arguably extreme) method above, institute fines for any business, person, or entity that employs a foreign national without the proper documents. If the fine were a minimum of $10,000.00 for each infraction, the practice of hiring illegals would cease, and quickly, if the law was enforced.

Stiffer fines are a good idea. The problem is that many illegals have forged documents, which makes it hard for companies to know who is legal or not. It is not really a company's job to determine worker eligibility beyond taking copies of documents. If the documents are not valid the company shouldn't have to pay.

The argument that not allowing illegals into the country would hurt the economy is invalid. There will always be a pool of individuals to do the work.

Yes there would be workers but at a higher wage. Only someone hopelessly naive would believe that employers could pay workers more without rising their prices. As consumers we are no different. We look for the best value for our dollar; and we reward companies with that dollar when they offer us goods and services at a lower cost. So we can't just blame companies, it's consumers who are driving the illegal labor market by demanding low prices.

In a neighborhood where I once lived, there was a 3 bedroom house. In this house were 14 illegal aliens, all male, all working construction. They all used the same Social Security number to report income.

Which means they were paying taxes, just like legals do, while most of them (if any) will never collect on SS. Yet all we ever hear is they are not paying taxes.

I'm not saying there's not a problem with immigration, or that entering the country illegally is right. I only question what is the best way to handle the situation as it stands now. We can't go back in time and correct the mistakes of the past. We need to figure out the best course of action from this point on, which is what seems to me our leaders are presently trying to do.

[Gohan Ryu]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

Considering the nationwide (and worldwide) outcry that would rise up against this type of action, I don't see it as being a serious option. Are there any leaders endorsing this type of radical action? I doubt it.

Agree. I suggest some non-lethal type of action instead of shooting them...perhaps the sonic noise generator that's used by cruise ships to deter pirates?

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

It is not really a company's job to determine worker eligibility beyond taking copies of documents. If the documents are not valid the company shouldn't have to pay.

I don't know the laws on this but every employer I've worked for did more than make copies of my documents...they called and verified. If it isn't the employers responsibility to verify a potential employee's legality, it should be.

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

Only someone hopelessly naive would believe that employers could pay workers more without rising their prices. As consumers we are no different.

To some it would seem that only the hopelessly naive believe the employers who save money by hiring illegals actually pass their savings on to the consumers. Most (including me) believe those employers pocket their savings.

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

Which means they were paying taxes, just like legals do, while most of them (if any) will never collect on SS. Yet all we ever hear is they are not paying taxes.

Illegal aliens absolutely do not contribute more than they cost. Certainly the millions in prison and on welfare aren't contributing a dime to our economy, and the ones who are working often are paid in cash with no deductions for taxes at all. The ones who use fraudulent social security numbers and qualify to pay taxes and social security have so many deductions for dependents that they pay little if any taxes. We have seen them pay less than $100 in taxes and get back $4,000 refunds (thanks to earned income tax credits and multiple dependents). Center for Immigration Studies estimates that the average Mexican illegal alien costs U.S. taxpayers a whopping $55,000 each. Some bargain, eh?

http://www.theamericanresistance.com...2004jan04.html

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

I only question what is the best way to handle the situation as it stands now. We can't go back in time and correct the mistakes of the past. We need to figure out the best course of action from this point on, which is what seems to me our leaders are presently trying to do.

Agree 100%. It seems our weak southern boarder has allowed us to dig ourselves into a hole. Do we continue as we have, giving illegals free access to our assets until we are bled dry or do we take drastic action? Because nothing short of drastic action will make a difference.

I've posted more on these "illegal debate" threads than I have anywhere else since I signed on here...I'm probably too saturated to be objective.

[03cavPA]

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

Recently, some high schools in CO, AZ, and CA have banned the use, wearing or display of the American Flag because it is upsetting to immigrants.

If you can't display your own flag in your own country, something is very, very wrong.

I personally don't give a damn how much it upsets foreign citizens when they come to MY country and see me displaying MY flag. If they don't like it, they can go back home. Now that you mention it, this is a good reason to display the flag even more than I already do. I hope it pisses every one of them off so much they can't stand it.

I'm sure the schools think they're doing something to avoid the inevitable confrontations between the different groups of students on campus (on the face of it, it doesn't sound like a bad idea at the time, but it's still a crock).

I'd like to see some students with well-connected parents exercise their rights as US citizens and display the flag as they please, then challenge it in court when they are disciplined for it. Yet another lawsuit-happy thought, huh?

[AlmostStock]

Originally Posted by Gohan Ryu

To some it would seem that only the hopelessly naive believe the employers who save money by hiring illegals actually pass their savings on to the consumers. Most (including me) believe those employers pocket their savings

Employers have to pass this savings on to consumers or we won't buy their product or service. Supply and demand. The companies offering the best value win our dollar. Others fall by the wayside. So in this respect you can't say there is no benefit to us.

Agree 100%. It seems our weak southern boarder has allowed us to dig ourselves into a hole. Do we continue as we have, giving illegals free access to our assets until we are bled dry or do we take drastic action? Because nothing short of drastic action will make a difference.

With an estimated 500,000 to 1,000,000 illegals coming in every year it only makes sense to start with border control. Collecting up the more than 12 million already here is just not going to happen.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

Stiffer fines are a good idea. The problem is that many illegals have forged documents, which makes it hard for companies to know who is legal or not. It is not really a company's job to determine worker eligibility beyond taking copies of documents. If the documents are not valid the company shouldn't have to pay.

I agree. The whole system which includes the mandatory I9 immigration forms need to be revamped. Employers are not held responsible for forged documents and are only required to follow the law and make a reasonable effort to verify the employee's status. I recall the I9 is required to be maintained by the employer for a certain period of time for inspection but no copy is forwarded to U.S. Immigration control.

On the issue of border security it doesn't help when our own Border Patrol waves illegals through at a checkpoint. The enforcement is totally lacking.

BTW - Our whole city is getting ready for the planned anti-immigration demonstrations set for Monday.

[TexasF355F1]

This thread correlates with the other threads, those have been very benign and civil. I'm sure this one will be no different.

We are now watching the collapse of America; Rome in present time.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by TexasF355F1

We are now watching the collapse of America; Rome in present time.

Good analogy. Attacked from within?

Sam Houston and Stephen Austin along with everyone that died at the Alamo are rolling in their graves.

[tenguzero]

Employers have to pass this savings on to consumers or we won't buy their product or service. Supply and demand. The companies offering the best value win our dollar. Others fall by the wayside. So in this respect you can't say there is no benefit to us.

The idea of employers passing the savings onto us so we can benefit is a moot point. Supply and demand works both ways. I can take the "companies saving money by paying illegals lower wages" argument and completely turn it around, with little difference. For example: an employer saves money by paying an illegal $3 an hour to wash dishes. The illegal then takes that money, and sends it home. The economy sees very little of it. Sure, the employer saves some money at the surface of it, because he only has to pay someone $3 instead of $6. Now, reverse that situation: the employer is forced to pay an American citizen $6 an hour. It now costs him twice as much to pay the dishwasher. But more of the money STAYS in the country, not to mention now the person in the dishwasher position is making more money, therefore he has more to spend. He now spends that money... paying for products and services.

If everyone makes more, everyone has more to spend. We as a country have fallen into this cycle of more, more, faster, faster, cheaper, cheaper. And it's a downward spiral: Workers wages are lowered and their healthcare costs go up, now they can't afford to spend as much. So in response, to keep making profits, the employers find other ways to lower costs. Lowering costs almost always ends up undercutting the employee further in some way (illegals are highered, manufacturing processes go overseas, the employee has to work harder to sell more product because the price has been lowered, etc.) It's a damn vicious cycle.

The fact is, cheap (ie. illegal) labor means less money in the pockets of the legitimate workers. Less money in the pockets of the legitimate workers means less money being spent in the marketplace. Less money being spent in the marketplace means costs need to be cut further to maintain profits. It's a losing battle all the way. On top of all this, various other bad processes begin to take root: lost hard income is replaced with spending on credit (increased spending on credit is NOT good.) Lifestyle sacrifices are made in an attempt to further compensate for this (a gym membership is halted, cheaper, often less healthy food is purchased, leisuretime spending is curtailed, etc.) And of course, the big one -- the troubling increase in the workweek. More hours on the job means less hours at home, less freetime, higher stress levels, etc.

I can go on and on -- because everything is a result of everything else in some way or another. Life is a massive balancing act, and if one key component gets thrown out of whack, everything else starts going off track. The bottom line? For all the supposed "good" illegal immigration does for this country (and really, the only "good" any proponents ever talk about is lower wages for employers -- seriously, what the F*** else do we get from illegal immigration?) there is much more "bad" we experience as a result. This cannot continue, because eventually, the system is going to become so overburdened, that the quality of life WILL start going down -- and then what the hell will we do? Much like illegal immigration, do you know what else attaches itself to a host body in increasing amounts, feeding off the available resources (until they are consumed and the body naturally begins to suffer?) A disease.

[TexasF355F1]

Originally Posted by bnaylor3400

Good analogy. Attacked from within?

Sam Houston and Stephen Austin along with everyone that died at the Alamo are rolling in their graves.

Haha, I graduated from Sam Houston State

[Muscletang]

Saw this on Yahoo...pissed me off.



Maybe and maybe not but you sure as hell are taking the MONEY I WANT.



The fuck you are.



So they're hippies now? Does that mean we can shoot them.



WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!! If we just mark them like cattle we can herd them all up.







Ah! We're just in time for the new revolution...



Ok...Ok...we'll let you in. IF and only IF you can hold the American flag right.....HEY WAIT A MINUTE!!!


Here we are ladies and gentlemen. The actually act of illegal coming into the country. Does anybody see anything wrong with this? Besides the fact that they're breaking the law but the fact it looks easy.

"If we don't protest they'll never hear us," said Oscar Cruz, 23, a construction worker who marched among the estimated 50,000 in San Diego. Cruz, who came illegally to the U.S. in 2003, said he had feared a crackdown but felt emboldened by the large marches across the country in recent weeks.

"We've got to get back in touch with the Statue of Liberty," said The Rev. Lawton Higgs, a United Methodist pastor and activist. "We've got to get back in touch with the civil rights movement, because that's what this is about."

"Marches will only get you so far," said Armando Navarro, coordinator of the National Alliance for Human Rights, a network of Hispanic activist groups in Southern California. "There has to be an electoral component to get the Republicans out of the majority."

Thank God the illegals don't have an education. Are they fucking stupid!? The Republicans are giving them the fucking country on a silver platter! Isn't Mr. Bush the one who wants our "guest workers" here out of anybody?

[TexasF355F1]

Your captions are hillarious.

I love the guys sign about taxes. What a dumbass.

[03cavPA]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Ok...Ok...we'll let you in. IF and only IF you can hold the American flag right.....HEY WAIT A MINUTE!!!

That's the way the flag is flown when used as a distress signal. Quite appropriate in this case. This country lost its way a while ago, and may never get it back. We are in trouble.

I don't see anything good coming out of all this. At some point, it may come down to armed insurrection.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

The Republicans are giving them the fucking country on a silver platter! Isn't Mr. Bush the one who wants our "guest workers" here out of anybody?

Yeah thats a good one considering Ronald Reagan signed into law the Immigration and Reform Act back in 1986 which gave amnesty to 3 million illegals. I do not doubt that the signing of that bill into law helped create the monster we have today. It is a problem of both parties not just Republican.

BTW - That law was introduced by Teddy Kennedy and the Democrats.

As far as I am concerned the Hispanics are still a minority in this country. Until then the majority rules.

[fredjacksonsan]

It's not really a race thing at all, but a national thing. The fact that the bulk of the illegals are Hispanic is defined by geography. I'm sure that there are lots of illegals of all races coming across.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. When you travel to another country, you must abide by their laws - and that works both ways. The laws of the US address how you may enter the country legally. If you don't, you are not a citizen, do not have the rights of a citizen, and are subject to whatever penalties non citizens can be given. Typically it's deportation, but we've already discussed the porous borders.