Political Viewpoint (LONG)

[fredjacksonsan]

IMO any group that suggests killing everyone not of the group, should itself be removed for the good of everyone.

[tenguzero]

Exactly my point. And you cant paint christianity just because a few idiots decide to enforce political propaganda on the basis of religion.

I wasn't saying that as a reflection of my OWN feelings towards Christianity -- I knew saying that would invoke replies contrary to that viewpoint, which was exactly what I was aiming for. I'm not about to fault anyone practicing a religion for the negative beliefs and actions of a select few others claiming to represent that same religion, whether they commited those acts 1000 years ago, or yesterday. My including Bush in the statement was emphasizing my point as well, since he's a prominent figure, but I could have used anyone in his place. My point is, too many people see one person with a scarf wrapped around their head and face, acting like an ignorant barabrian, and they automatically assume EVERYONE walking around with a scarf wrapped around their head and face is an ignorant barbarian, and not just walking around like that because it's the thing to do in a place where sandstorms are common.

Have you read the Qu'ran? There's verses (and I'll be happy to list a few) that give specific orders to wage a war against pagans and non-believers. This is where my dislike of Islam as a religion comes from, not the media.

The Bible:

"Do not allow a sorceress to live. Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed. Exodus 22:18-20

"This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' The Levites did as Moses commanded and that day about three thousand of the people died." Exodus 32:27-28

"The LORD said to Moses, 'Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites…. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps…. (Moses ordered) "Now kill all the boys. And kill every women who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31: 1-18

(Jesus said) "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me." Luke 19:27

"He (Jesus) said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Luke 22:36

The Qu'ran

4.56: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

9.123: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.


I saved you the trouble of posting some. This is the basic flaw with all holy books: there are those who would take these verses literally, instead of using them as a figurative guide for their lives. This also reveals the second major flaw with all holy books: they are absolutely RAMPANT with contradictions. The Qu'ran has just as many phrases that directly contradict those I've posted above, as does the Bible. In the sake of not blowing this thing too far off topic (and into the Philosophy forum where some of these responses belong) that's all I'm going to say about that.

Again, refer to what I said above about the verses. I believe that if most muslims knew about these verses (and I believe they do, they just ignore them) they would really be hesitant in standing up and saying, "I'm proud to be muslim". I do agree with you on the fact that the media portrays muslims as a whole as terrorists, which is wrong. Despite my dislike of islam, I have a few muslim friends myself and they I believe are only confrontational because theyre trying to fight this very terrorist-stereotype.

I think we can all agree on that point. No decent person is proud of atrocities commited in the name of a belief system they hold dear, and so it's entirely unfair that someone would go to any lengths to hang it over this person's head. No self-respecting Christian wants anyting to do with those psychos proclaiming the death of soldiers is a result of "god's wrath" for an ill-behaved society. And the same can only be held true for people of other faiths as well. Let's face it: if the 1 billion + people (and growing quickly) representing Islam were indeed representing a belief system violent in its very nature, I think we'd all be a little more affected by it. Don't forget: nearly every major religion went through incredibly tumultuous times during its heaviest growth and saturation periods, it just so happens that Islam is going through its own at a time when cheap explosives, ready know-how, stockpiles of guns, and even nuclear weaponry are all thoroughly pervasive and easily obtainable -- mostly as a result of wars fought in the past century between countries NOT of Middle Eastern origin...

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

The Bible:

"Do not allow a sorceress to live. Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed. Exodus 22:18-20

"This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' The Levites did as Moses commanded and that day about three thousand of the people died." Exodus 32:27-28

"The LORD said to Moses, 'Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites…. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps…. (Moses ordered) "Now kill all the boys. And kill every women who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31: 1-18

(Jesus said) "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me." Luke 19:27

"He (Jesus) said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Luke 22:36

The Qu'ran

4.56: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

9.123: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Your points are well taken; but I have to point out the difference in the verses you chose. (Even though other verses could certainly have been used)

In each case the Bible references point out a limited specific group to be killed, and usually a reason to do so.

The Q'uran verses point not to a limited group, but rather at all who are not Muslim. [or perhaps my interpretation is incorrect, maybe it points to those that do not worship one God (see below), but the problem lies in that some Muslims interpret that to mean non-Muslims]


From these quotes, the Muslim tenet seems to be, "If they don't believe what we believe, kill them", while there is no unifying theme in the Bible verses.

Further, in the Bible there is an easily seen distinction between Old and New Testaments; the Old was decidedly bloodier than the new.

--

Having said all that, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all say there is one God. Why then, are these factions at odds with each other?

[tenguzero]

Having said all that, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all say there is one God. Why then, are these factions at odds with each other?

That, good fellows, is the question we're ALL asking...

ONE God (the SAME God) SAME prophets, SAME angels, surely something as inconsequential as HOW people view those prophets, and in what capacity, can't be to blame for all the strife between the three -- and all three ARE at odds, even though Christianity and Judaism are seemingly on more solid footing with each other than either is with Islam, and vice-versa. However, don't forget that all it took was one dumb, heavily-biased Mel Gibson movie to bring some definite bad blood to the surface in Judeo/Christian relations, and considering our unspoken one-sidedness in the Israel/Palestine conflict, I could understand how there would be Muslims who aren't exactly happy with us, either.

But I digress, as the basic question is still unanswered: Why ARE they all at odds with each other considering the same basic foundations are shared by all three?

[fredjacksonsan]

I think it goes to interpretation, plus fear.

The interpretation is fairly straightforward.

Less so is the fear. If you think about the fear angle, hate comes from fear. You fear what you do not understand. Many of the people in the Middle East, until recently, have not had access to as much info as other nations' peoples, due to either oppression or lack of technology, or both. So they would be ignorant of other cultures and people, and less worldly than their peers in other countries. There would be a natural predisposition to fear the other country or countries, especially when their leaders are saying things like the other country is the "Great Satan" or other propaganda. You could compare it to walking down the sidewalk in whatever passes for the "wrong neighborhood" for you. You're uneasy, and worried about what the people might do to you, or what will happen to you if you don't get back to where you're more comfortable. You'd be worse if someone you trusted had told you bad things about that neighborhood, whether true or not.

So take this fear, add propaganda, some insecurity due to all the oppression, colonialism, and exploitation you've had for many years, a strong leader who will kill you if you don't go along, and think about it in a religious environment that has quotes from the holy book saying "kill those not like us". With the religious leaders not clarifying "not like us" and helping to incite the people, what do you get? Suicide bombers and religious fanatics who will combat the perceived "great satan" with gusto - especially when that satan invades their country, or another nearby.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

However, don't forget that all it took was one dumb, heavily-biased Mel Gibson movie to bring some definite bad blood to the surface in Judeo/Christian relations

Honestly if you're not going to say anything nice don't say anything at all.

What's wrong with the Passion movie? Mel Gibson wanted to make a movie about Christ. He used his own money to make it and put it up. What's wrong with that? Nothing.

As for it being heavily-biased and dumb, since he used the Bible as reference, you mean the same for the it.

Finally for the Judeo and Christian relations it'll always be bad. Until the day that either all Christians say Christ wasn't the son of God or all Jews admit he was they'll always be at odds.

[tenguzero]

Sorry if i didn't like that piece of trash movie

If I want to bash a 2-hour snuff film, I'll do it, regardless of whether you approve