Italians rescue hostage,get fired on by US on way to airport.

[DGB454]

You are relevant Twitch1 . We here are all relevant. Except for those who think we aren't.

Besides; I like hearing from vets. I get a different perspective on things. I am not a vet of any war but I am sure as hell glad that there are people who did step up and serve. Thanks.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by DGB454

You are relevant Twitch1 . We here are all relevant. Except for those who think we aren't.

Besides; I like hearing from vets. I get a different perspective on things. I am not a vet of any war but I am sure as hell glad that there are people who did step up and serve. Thanks.

Another amusing post.If you like hearing from vets, I'll take that as a compliment.Having almost lost a foot in the service of my country, and having been disabled out of the Navy at the age of 18,I'm more than happy to give a vets perspective.Not all vets want fawning gratitude for what they chose to do, nor do we all expect our opinions to carry extra weight above those who chose not to serve.Until they bring back the draft, anyone who fights for their country does so for their own reasons.
And if you don't know what is happening around you,or why , then your reasons are pretty irrelevant.

[Twitch1]

DGB454, Codycool - all I ever said about this silly thread is that NO ONE can imagine what they'd do in the above situation unless they've been tested in combat. Making comments without knowing all the data is foolish. "They shoulda done this. They shoulda done that. I woulda done this. I woulda done that," is just stupid talk. Serving in combat is totally different to serving in peacetime.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by taranaki

Another amusing post.

I do what I can. You should try and re-read some of yours if you really want amusement.

If you like hearing from vets, I'll take that as a compliment.Having almost lost a foot in the service of my country, and having been disabled out of the Navy at the age of 18,I'm more than happy to give a vets perspective.

I knew you were a vet. I have no problem hearing from you either.
Sometimes I actually enjoy reading your opinion.Except when you call people worthless and usless or some other nonsense like that.

Not all vets want fawning gratitude for what they chose to do, nor do we all expect our opinions to carry extra weight above those who chose not to serve

I didn't hear any other vet asking for gratitude or say their opinion should carry extra weight.

And if you don't know what is happening around you,or why , then your reasons are pretty irrelevant.

Need I say anything else?

[codycool]

Originally Posted by taranaki

If you wamnt to debate, debate.If you just want to throw your toys, carry on, but know that you are no longer relevant.

Maybe you should take some of your own medicine!! Instead of banning people who view their political opinions in other ways.

[Twitch1]

Codycool- question is why does anyone here have to play by any one person's imaginary rules?

[RSX-S777]

Quite simple. The "Imaginary Rules" exist to create a somewhat civilized online environment in which people feel comfortable contributing and participating. However, creating one's own rules without any regard for others seems to be the exclusive forte of many Americans, so I'm not surprised at your perplexity.

By some logic, I have to be a soldier to comprehend right from wrong. I have to be a vet to earn the right to an opinion. A grunt makes his own rules in a warzone. I don't accept it. Just another half-assed measure taken to defend a tired position. And as an American with friends in the military who have served, and are currently serving in Iraq, I know that the gung-ho Band of Brothers bullshit going on in here is (thankfully) not accurate or representative.

[fredjacksonsan]

If the car in question hadn't contained a journalist that had been held hostage, this would never have been debated.

This sort of thing happens daily in Iraq, I'm sure. While I haven't been there, and haven't been in combat, it seems that when you know your buddy was blown up yesterday in a suicide car bomb at a checkpoint, and lo and behold, here comes a car that's not slowing down/stopping for your own checkpoint, you're going to hesitate a second(maybe) because those are your orders, but when it keeps coming it's going to be you or them, now your buddy has opened up with the M-60 so dammit we're in this now and let 'em have it. And that's maybe 1/2 a second.

Now there weren't bullet holes in the car pictures, but we can't be sure if that was the correct car, we can't be sure of the car's speed as it approached the checkpoint, and we can't be sure of anything that happened, as it's all colored by the perception of the people involved.

I think a court martial for the troops involved is a bit extreme. This is aCOMBAT situation; it wasn't a premeditated action, but a reaction to a situation.
1: The Italians should never have paid ransom to terrorists.

2: The Italians should have communicated to other troops what was happening, and their route to the airport.

3: The Italians should have advised what car they would be driving.

4: The US troops should have been advised of #2 and #3.

5: The US troops should have been out of Iraq 6 months ago.

[Twitch1]

RSX yeah that's cool. It's simply not fair when it's not followed by certain people that can't present a logical poin of view without resorting to cursing and demeaning people involved in the topic. I didn't vote for Bush but the continual "Bush is a piece of shit," commentary is and always has been uncalled for. If someone can't temper their animalness over their intellect they don't belong here or any place similar. Is it too difficult to say, "Bush is in error on this or that topic and here's why..." My experiment has shown that others will allow some folks to get away with deviant behavior while the same thing form someone else is poo-pooed. Strange huh?

Does anyone know positively the rules of engagement handed down in this theater of operations by command? No? Me and codycool don't either. All we've ever maintained is that no one can damn someone without knowing all the circumstances and most especially that NO ONE will know how they will react in a combat situation unless they've been in a similar scenario. As I said I was skilled in jungle warfare and not urban. Since he was in Iraq Codycool may be the only person here that has experiance in that, and only then if he was involved in a similar detail of vehicle checkpoint activity. It's just the rush to judgement without all the facts that is so predictable for lots of people.

Being ex-military is not needed to determine right from wrong. Having experience under fire gives you the knowledge of how to react automatically.

Take yourself, lets say. You're working and Sears or Microsoft- whatever- tomorrow you are placed at a checkpoint in a battlezone with an M-16(which is basically an anti-personnel not anti armor weapon) in your hands and told to examine all vehicles moving throught the point. What do you do if a vehicle speeds up instead of slows down. Is the vehiles full of explosives or what? You don't know what the heck to do by default reason of no experience.

Finally, I can tell you most assuredly that after you are in country for varying time- about 2-3 months for Nam- you get into a rhythm of not caring about yourself because if you start day counting you're gonna die. You get totally detached from yourself. Your own safety is a far second.

Since I write combat stories men I've interviewed from WW 2 and Korea have acknowledged the same thing to me. The most important thing is your pals and their survival. That's really hard to get across. It's a bond that transcends everything else on earth! You will never love a woman or offspring they way you love your brothers in arms. Platoons and squad-sized units are teams. There is no place for lone rangers out there. Whatever anyone has told you about a squad not being super close is simply inaccurate- probably embarrassed that it sounds too gay or something.

This incident was not premeditated at all. Why is necessary to indict instead of understand?

If Lyndon Johnson was in a vehicle that was bearing down on one of my buds in 1969 I'd have never hesitated for a second to gun him.

Know this. Codycool and I are ex-Marines. If we were thrown together and dropped into a hot zone having never met we would still implicitly trust our lives to one another without a word needing to be said. That's the way it has always worked. If for some alien reason that is no longer the case I feel very sorry for any man thrust into a combat situation for he will surely perish without that bond of comradery.
Semper Fi


Hey Fredjackson- this one is for YOU!

[fredjacksonsan]

Schlurrrp. Ahhhh. Thanks, my favorite beer - free and cold.