Italians rescue hostage,get fired on by US on way to airport.

[taranaki]

Mistaken U.S. attack wounds Italian journalist
Italian agent killed when troops open fire on car
MSNBC News Services
Updated: 10:18 p.m. ET March 4, 2005
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena survived a month of captivity and horror at the hands of Iraqi insurgents, but little could she imagine the terror that lay just ahead: A shrapnel wound when American troops opened fire on the speeding car carrying her to freedom.


One of the Italian intelligence agents who negotiated her release Friday was killed as he threw his body across her when the shooting started. One, perhaps two, other agents were wounded, in still another tragic friendly fire incident at a U.S. checkpoint.

Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, an ally of the United States who has kept Italian troops in Iraq despite public opposition at home, demanded an explanation “for such a serious incident, for which someone must take the responsibility.”

President Bush expressed regret and promised to investigate, the White House said.

Military says driver warned to stop
The U.S. military said the car was speeding as it approached a coalition checkpoint in western Baghdad at 8:55 p.m. It said soldiers shot into the engine block only after trying to warn the driver to stop by “hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots.”

Berlusconi identified the dead intelligence officer as Nicola Calipari and said he had been at the forefront of negotiations with the kidnappers. The prime minister said Calipari had been involved in the release of other Italian hostages in Iraq in the past.

Sgrena, 56, who works for the leftist newspaper Il Manifesto, was abducted Feb. 4 by gunmen who blocked her car outside Baghdad University. Last month, she was shown in a video pleading for her life and demanding that all foreign troops — including Italian forces — leave Iraq.

From joy to horror
Berlusconi said he had been celebrating Sgrena’s release with the editor of Il Manifesto, and with Sgrena’s boyfriend, Pier Scolari, when he took a phone call from an agent who informed them of the shooting.

“It’s a shame that the joy we all felt was turned into tragedy,” Berlusconi said.

The shooting came as a blow to Berlusconi, who has kept 3,000 troops in Iraq despite strong opposition in Italy. The shooting was likely to set off new protests in Italy, where tens of thousands have regularly turned out on the streets to protest the Iraq war. Sgrena’s newspaper was a loud opponent of the war.

“Another victim of an absurd war,” Alfonso Pecoraro Scanio, leader of the Green Party, told Apcom.

“It’s incredible that a man who was busying himself with the difficult task of saving a life was killed by those who say they are in Iraq to safeguard the lives of civilians,” said Piero Fassino, leader of the Democratic Party of the Left.

Bush promises full investigation
Bush called Berlusconi and, in a five-minute conversation, expressed his regret about the incident, Bush spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters aboard Air Force One on Friday night.

“The president assured Prime Minister Berlusconi it would be fully investigated,” McClellan said. “I think he appreciated that.”

McClellan wouldn’t comment on what the incident might mean for participation by Italy or other countries in the coalition.

“It’s premature to get ahead of the investigation,” McClellan said.

The Americans said two people were wounded, but Berlusconi said there were three — Sgrena and two intelligence officers. One of the officers was in serious condition with an apparent lung injury, according to the Apcom news agency in Italy. The U.S. military said Army medics treated a wounded man but that “he refused medical evacuation for further assistance.”

The intelligence agent was killed when he threw himself over Sgrena to protect her from U.S. fire, Apcom quoted Gabriele Polo, the editor of Il Manifesto, as saying.

Journalist to return home Saturday
U.S. troops took Sgrena to an American military hospital, where shrapnel was removed from her left shoulder. Apcom said Sgrena was fit to travel and would return to Rome on Saturday.

Iraqis have reported numerous incidents where confusion at U.S. checkpoints has led to U.S. soldiers killing innocent civilians.

In a 2003 friendly-fire incident involving Italians, American soldiers in northern Iraq shot at a car carrying the Italian official heading up U.S. efforts to recover Iraq’s looted antiquities. Pietro Cordone, the top Italian diplomat in Iraq, was unhurt, but his Iraqi translator was killed.

Cordone, also the senior adviser for cultural affairs of the U.S. provisional authority, was traveling on the road between Mosul and Tikrit when his car was fired on at a U.S. roadblock, according to an Italian Foreign Ministry official.

Also Friday, four U.S. soldiers were killed west of the capital in sprawling Anbar province, where American troops launched a massive sweep two weeks ago to root out insurgents, the military said. The soldiers, assigned to the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, were killed “while conducting security and stability operations.”

The circumstances of Sgrena’s release from captivity were unclear.

The Italian government announced earlier Friday that Sgrena had been freed, prompting expressions of joy and relief from officials and her family.

Champagne celebration
Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini expressed “great joy and enormous satisfaction,” the ANSA news agency said.

The reporter’s father was so overwhelmed by the news that he needed assistance from a doctor, ANSA said. “This is an exceptional day,” Franco Sgrena was quoted as saying.

At Il Manifesto’s offices, reporters toasted the release with champagne.

On Feb. 19, tens of thousands of demonstrators marched through Rome waving rainbow peace flags to press for Sgrena’s release. Il Manifesto and Sgrena’s boyfriend organized the march.

About 200 foreigners have been abducted in Iraq in the past year, and more than 30 of the hostages were killed.

Another European reporter, Florence Aubenas, a veteran war correspondent for France’s leftist daily Liberation, is still being held in Iraq. Aubenas and her interpreter, Hussein Hanoun al-Saadi, disappeared nearly two months ago.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7089948/

[RSX-S777]

I'm reluctant to comment on this specific incident as I haven't been able to secure certain facts. Why did the escort fail to stop or slow? Why was the Joint Command not notified of the success and location of the rescue- and the specifics regarding the evacuation? There appears to be a communication breakdown in this "Coalition". One more senseless incident in a thoroughly senseless war.

[SnoopisTDI]

That's pretty much what I was thinking. You'd have to be pretty stupid not to stop at the checkpoint, but at the same time they should have known these people were coming. Possibly they thought the guys at the check point were expecting them. Maybe they should have used a helicopter to transport her.

[taranaki]

The route from the pickup to the airport is one of the most dangerous roads in Iraq at the moment.Car bombings are commonplace, and the troops asigned to monitor it are justifiably nervous.Kidnapping of occupying forces and Western civilians is now as much about organised crime as it is religious fundamentalism.

The Italian secret service had just extracted a hostage and were heading for the airport.There's no way that they'd risk a further ambush by slowing down for a randomly-placed 'checkpoint' until they were certain that it was friendly.

The US troops manning the checkpoint know that if a car bomb er comes towards them, there's a good chance that he'll detonate the bomb rather than be detained.They're scared shitless.


So when a speeding car comes towards them, they try to flag it down , and when it fails to respond instantly, they open fire on it. I don't believe for a second that they were firing 'warning shots',or at the engine block either.If a lightly armed Italian military mission came under fire in a civilian vehicle, their first response would be to get the hell out without slowing down.And if an American checkpoint were confronted with a speeding car, they'd stop it by whatever means possible.Even if it meant killing the driver.Such is the way of war.To tell lies about 'firing at the engine block' is to insult the readers intelligence.When you are losing a war against terrorism, you don't fight fair.End of story.

[SnoopisTDI]

Originally Posted by taranaki

To tell lies about 'firing at the engine block' is to insult the readers intelligence.When you are losing a war against terrorism, you don't fight fair.End of story.

That's one hell of an assumption and one hell of an accusation. And you may be right, but I don't see how you can know that unless you were there.

You can shoot the driver and blow his head off, but if his foot is still on the gas pedal, you still have a car bomb flying towards you. Hit the engine with something big and at least you know it will slow down. This would probably destroy the front end of the car too, changing it's direction.

[RSX-S777]

I have to wonder why there was no Italian military escort or American help of any kind involved.

[SnoopisTDI]

The whole situation is a little strange.

I also read, from a member on another forum who was in Iraq, that this type of thing happens all the time in Iraq- people trying to run check points and getting blown up.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by SnoopisTDI

That's one hell of an assumption and one hell of an accusation. And you may be right, but I don't see how you can know that unless you were there.
.

No assumption at all.One of the most basic pieces of military basic training.If you believe that someone is trying to kill you, you kill them first.Now if it turns out that you were wrong, and you just wasted some Iraqi civilian because he didn't reconise you as an American soldier, that's not a problem.Shit, happens all the time, so often that the press don't even bother with it.
However, in the event that you take out a car load of allies in error, you'd better come up with an excuse damn quick.But it had better be more believable than 'we were shooting at the engine block' because anyone who has ever served will tell you that that is a complete crock of shit.

'Checkpoint' simply means a unit stopped by the roadside stopping and searching vehicles at random.There is usually no barrier, no signeage, no US flag prominently displayed.It's standard practice to fire on anyone who fails to stop, and you shoot to kill.The engine block is not in control of any explosives in a car bomb, the occuipants of the vehicle are,so you kill them all as quickly as you can to prevent them from killing you.

Contrary to what many are saying Iraq is still a war zone.Bad things happen in war zones, that much I can accept.What I don't accept is being lied to by the US government and their agencies.

[TRD2000]

strange that they completely missed the driver but the Italian agent dies of a single bullet wound to the head. seems like Italy is pretty pissed off about the whole thing. the driver says he was doing 40-50kph (30mph).

[Twitch1]

Anyone that's never been in combat has absolutely nothing to say about things that occur in a combat zone. Nothing, because you have no idea what it is like. You can't 2nd guess what the combat personnel could have/would have/should have done. You're not immersed in the situation of survival on a daily basis.


When a little girl about 5 walks up to a bunch of GIs and pulls up her dress to detach the pins on 3 grenades around her waist what do you do? What DO you do? If you survive you're going to be very wary of similar situations in the future and act accordingly. Been there. Done that. Same thing here different tactics.

[TRD2000]

ahhh so shoot at any approching car just in case? top theory... ok take einstein off the checkpoint, we just made thinkers obsolete. from now on US policy is to shoot at anything that isn't a humvee.

I remember what an Australian UN advisor told me about a check point in the Gaza strip that the previous advisor, from the U.S., had set up. they had a .50 cal set up beside the checkpoint in a tower firing down the road, so if they got a line of cars they could not fire on a single car without straffing the entire line, they would also be unable to shoot at an engine block without hitting the rest of the car, including the passenger compartment. The first change he made was to move the 50 cal out to one side so it could hit specific cars without killing people in nearby vehicles. This would also mean that it might be possible to take out an engine without killing the occupants. it does make it harder to hit a moving vehicle from the side rather than the front, but after seeing all those "precision" attacks i don't think the marines are worried about wasting bullets.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by Twitch1

Anyone that's never been in combat has absolutely nothing to say about things that occur in a combat zone. Nothing, because you have no idea what it is like. You can't 2nd guess what the combat personnel could have/would have/should have done. You're not immersed in the situation of survival on a daily basis.

Where were you when the debate of the marine shooting that one guy was going on? You hit the nail right on the head here but sadly most people won't or try to understand what you're saying.

[Twitch1]

It's real easy to sit half a world away and 2nd guess a tactical combat situation isn't it? Combat is a fluid situation quite different from sitting and waiting for the Huns to attack the trenches like WW I.

.50 M-2 AP rounds will only stop an engine if they stop the pistons and crank. Even then, depending on how far out you engaged it, the vehicle will still have enough inertia to cover lots of ground. And 5.56s from an A-2 won't do that. Adapting to ever changing combat situations demands neutralizing any threats in your perimeter. I could teach rifle squad tactics all day but again, no one can comment with any rationale who has not been in a combat situation!

Muscletang, I only recently stumbled across this den of liars and theives, Saheeb. All the philosophical crapola goes out the friggin window and into your drawers when you're on point and Charlie opens up believe me.

Shooting car motors is like the ancient cowboy movies where the hero ALWAYS shot the gun out of the outlaws' hands. Get real. HAHAHAHAHA!

[TRD2000]

even allies.

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. forces in Iraq (news - web sites) faced new strains with allies on Monday when Bulgaria said they had probably shot dead one of its soldiers after angering Rome by killing an Italian secret agent who rescued a hostage.

The shootings confirmed what for many Iraqis is a daily reality -- that U.S. forces are too quick to open fire and often kill innocent civilians in their efforts to crack down on insurgents, who killed at least 23 people in fresh attacks.

The Bulgarian soldier was killed in southern Iraq on Friday, around the same time that U.S. forces in Baghdad opened fire on a vehicle taking kidnapped Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena to the airport shortly after her captors freed her.

Bulgarian Defense Minister Nikolai Svinarov said an investigation into the death of the Bulgarian soldier showed he had probably been accidentally killed by American troops.

"Someone started shooting at our patrol from the west, and in the same direction, 150 meters (yards) away, there was a unit from the U.S. army," he told a news conference.

"The result gives us enough grounds to believe the death of rifleman Gurdi Gurdev was caused by friendly fire."

[Twitch1]

So? Grow up! Friendly fire incidents have happened since gunpowder and firearms were invented. Why should everyone here gasp in horror since you were so kind to point htis out?

Tell ya what bub. Since some folks here love to be Monday morning quarterbacks but couldn't find their azz with both hands in a combat scenario they need to be thrust into the same situation and see how easy it is to tell the good indigs and the bad ones apart.

Unlike popular belief the VC weren't wearing black uniforms so as we'd know who they were either. Just too much talking outta azzes around here for a bunch of snots that never been in country.