Outlook for Alternative Fuels

[beef_bourito]

what is biodiesel? What fuels can you make at home? How expensive is it to produce? If your vehicle can't run on pure ethanol or whatever you can produce at home, can you use it as a fuel additive and reduce emissions and increase gas mileage even a little bit? I was also wondering if you can make fuel from compost, my family has a huge compost (we recycle everything we can either through recycling or compost) and if not from compost how about from fruits and vegetables that would be composted otherwise?

If the fuels you can produce at home can't be used in cars or lawnmowers and such, can it be used instead of natural gas in a stove, a kerosene lamp, or a heater? My home is heated by natural gas and in canadian winters we use (I'm just speculating here) alot, even though we keep the house at around 15-20 degrees celcius (60-70 degrees farenheit) and it would be great to save some money on fuels and maybe create cleaner emissions (although i think natural gas burns pretty clean).

How cost effective would it be to produce fuel from an otherwise wasted source? Someone said it wouldn't be worth it but is that because you would have to actually buy the engrediants for cars to run solely on that or that the cost to produce it would be greater than the money saved?

Does anyone know the laws about producing alcohol in Canada (the greatest country in the world) and I assume you need to be 19 (18 in Quebec, thank goodness I live right at the border, in a year I can drink legally) to produce alcohol or am I wrong and you only need to be of drinking age if it's for consumption?

[Sluttypatton]

Ethanol already is used as a fuel additive to increase octane cheaply and decrease emissions. You could produce Ethanol at home, or even Methanol if you so desired, but they wouldn't really be cost effective to produce on such a small scale for fuel, and it is quite time consuming to operate a small scale still. I don't know much about diesel fuels so I will leave those to someone else. It would, however, be cost effective to produce Ethanol at home to drink, and could be done for somewhere around 1-2 dollars per liter once the still has been built. I have no idea what the laws on creating alcohol are here (Canada), but distilling it is distinctly illegal. It's a dumb law, and based solely upon the myth that distillation is dangerous, but it is still the law. However, if you are interested in the theory of distillation and how you would go about doing it, I would be happy to explain it.

[beef_bourito]

thank you slutty patton, I would like some details (of course i will research the laws on such things) because it would be an interesting project

p.s. you live in canada to? sweet.

[SaabJohan]

To buy pure ethanol for the purpose of drinking it would have been cheaper instead of producing it home if it wasn't for the taxes, but question is who actually buy that stuff clean with the purpose of drinking it.

When making your own ethanol for drinking purposes there is also a danger that it will contain methanol which means that in worst case you can end up killing yourself.

If you are producing fuel at home there is a fire risk, and with some fuels you can also end up poisoning yourself.

Making your fuel at home will also likely not be environmental friendly as you would have no control of the emissions of the fuel production, the energy need of your production will also likely be high (what's the advantage of making your own fuel if means that you needs to buy a lot of electricity for the production).

[beef_bourito]

Very true, but I think it would work quite well for burning things... J/K, not really but how much fuel economy would it give you to add a bit more ethanol to your fuel and how much would it cost to produce that fuel (I need numbers, I just think that way)

[curtis73]

Ethanol would increase fuel consumption on an EFI car and it should remain the same in carbed cars.

Ethanol carries some of its own oxygen, so to retain 14.7:1 ratio by the O2 sensors, it needs to inject more fuel. That is why winter fuel is called "oxygenated." It contains up to 14% ethanol which carries it own oxygen. Great for HC and NOx emissions, but bad for fuel economy and rubber fuel line parts.

Ethanol is a great fuel, but with its 5% water content and high oxygen content, it burns a lot of fuel to make its stoich mixture. Something like 6:1 or 8:1... I forget. It also makes your oil a joke in a matter of a few miles. Ever see an alcohol-burning car's oil after 1/4 mile? It is a white frothy soup with very little of the qualities of its origin. Plus the alcohol washes the cylinder walls excessively causing rapidly accelerated ring and cylinder wear.

Just some more hurdles that we need to overcome with alcohols as fuels.

[beef_bourito]

so no to home-blending ethanol with fuel and yes to burning things with it. Got it.

[SnoopisTDI]

Originally Posted by beef_bourito

what is biodiesel?

Biodiesel is a diesel fuel made from vegetable oil or animal fats. Most of the biodiesel in America is made from soy bean oil, but some is made from waste vegetable oil. In Germany, it is mostly made from rapeseed. There are many other sources, including jojoba and algae(most promising IMO).

The emissions are quite a bit cleaner than normal diesel fuel, although NOx emissions are a little higher. The engine will definitely be quieter, and exhaust smells better too. One drawback is that it gels at a relatively high temperature. Normal diesel fuel gels around 0F, but straight biodiesel gels closer to 32F. I don't think it's really a big deal though, because you can just add an anti-gel additive like you would with normal diesel- you just have to do it at warmer temperatures.

No modifications are required to use biodiesel. If you have a really old engine with natural rubber fuel lines, the biodiesel will destroy them- but odds are if your fuel lines are that old, they need to be replaced anyway. Any diesel engine made in the last 10 years or so should require no modification at all.

What fuels can you make at home? How expensive is it to produce? If your vehicle can't run on pure ethanol or whatever you can produce at home, can you use it as a fuel additive and reduce emissions and increase gas mileage even a little bit?

Biodiesel can be made at home, and from what I've read, it sounds like you can do it for about 50cents/gallon. You can run pure biodiesel, called "neat" biodiesel or B100, or you can run any mixture of biodiesel and regular diesel. A mixture of 20% biodiesel and 80% diesel would be called B20. A mixture of 45% biodiesel and 55% diesel would be B45, etc.

Biodiesel has a slightly lower amount of energy in it than regular diesel, however it burns slightly differently, and also provides a lot of lubricity, so usually mileage is about the same. If you run a high percentage of biodiesel, you might see a 1 or 2% loss in mileage. Some people use it in small amounts, say B5 or B10, and actually see an increase in mileage. Small amounts make a big difference in cleaning up emissions as well.

I was also wondering if you can make fuel from compost, my family has a huge compost (we recycle everything we can either through recycling or compost) and if not from compost how about from fruits and vegetables that would be composted otherwise?

I don't think you can do it at home, but I've heard of a process called transthermal depolymerization(spellcheck!), or TDP for short, which sounds like it can turn just about anything into oil which could be used for fuel.

If the fuels you can produce at home can't be used in cars or lawnmowers and such, can it be used instead of natural gas in a stove, a kerosene lamp, or a heater? My home is heated by natural gas and in canadian winters we use (I'm just speculating here) alot, even though we keep the house at around 15-20 degrees celcius (60-70 degrees farenheit) and it would be great to save some money on fuels and maybe create cleaner emissions (although i think natural gas burns pretty clean).

I don't think it could be used as a direct replacement for natural gas, but many homes use home heating oil right now, which is basically diesel fuel. In that case, you can use biodiesel, although I think you might need to make some small changes.

How cost effective would it be to produce fuel from an otherwise wasted source? Someone said it wouldn't be worth it but is that because you would have to actually buy the engrediants for cars to run solely on that or that the cost to produce it would be greater than the money saved?

If you do a lot of driving, and want to run B100, you'd probably spend every waking second of your day making fuel. But if you drive maybe a hundred miles or so per week, and want to run B20, that should be fairly easy.

Or you can just some biodiesel already made. It costs more than regular diesel here in the States, but the prices are getting pretty close. Also, sometimes you can get a rebate which will make it cost the same or less than regular diesel. For example, the Maryland Soybean Board was offering a 50% rebate on biodiesel for a while, so it wasn't too expensive at all.

I'm not sure about the laws for making your own fuel, but remember you are still supposed to pay a road tax.

For more information, check out Biodiesel.org, Biodieselnow.com, and Journey to Forever.

[SnoopisTDI]

Originally Posted by Bain

Thats cool. The reason I asked is because after reading all the posts I've become interested in maybe getting a diesel car if the mileage is as great as everyone says that would be great for getting around town and long trips then I would just drive my camaro on the strip and 3000gt when I go rallying to save gas. Do all manufacturers make diesel cars I'm not a truck person I don't like trucks my self out side of going mudding with I do in my 3000gt anyway but if not which manufacturers do I saw a lot of vw tdi being mentioned but is that the only choice. Plus I don't really want to pay on it for the rest of my life so examples of cheaper models would be apreciated.

Right now, I think the only diesels being offered are in North America:

VW__ Golf, Jetta(and Jetta wagon), New Beetle, Passat(and Passat wagon), Touareg

Jeep__ Liberty

Mercedes__ E-class

In Europe you can get just about anything with a diesel- Mercedes even has a diesel SLK now with a 3.2L, 286hp, 465lb-ft tri-turbo diesel that gets 30mpg combined cty/hwy driving! I think we might see that engine in the ML suv in North America soon.

Check out www.tdiclub.com if you want more info on the TDI or just diesel information in general.


To be honest, unless you are looking for a car anyway, I don't think I'd buy a car just to save fuel. Unless fuel gets really expensive, I don't think it would ever pay off. But if you're looking for a daily driver that gets great mileage, I'd definitely check out diesels! In a TDI with a manual transmission, it's pretty easy to get 40mpg in city driving and 50mpg on the highway.

I looked at fuel prices just the other day and saw diesel had jumped to $2.24, with unleaded being $1.91. Looks bad at first, but I did the math, and comparing to the same car with a gasoline engine, the cost of driving will be even when diesel reaches $3.18 and gas is still $1.91. Of course there are non-diesel cars that good mileage too, but the only thing that come close to the TDI is an old tin-can CRX or a hybrid, and the hybrids aren't exactly known for getting the high mileage they claim.

[beef_bourito]

don't forget the smartcar, apparently they're pretty cool. A co-worker got one about a month ago and just filled it up last weekend. Plus they don't cost too much, just like $16,500-25,777 with all equiped and has 73.8 lbs of torque at 1,800-2,800RPM, max power is 40.2 hp at 4,200RPM, and weighs what... 2lbs. Actually it weighs 730 kg(without the driver) so that's 55.1hp per tonne compared to the civic SiR with 129hp per tonne with less than half the gas mileage. Plus the smart car has all kinds of cool features. I'm not trying to sell the smart car (go buy one) but I just think it's really cool that someone has a cheap, non-sluggish, car with cool features and excellent gas mileage.

[SnoopisTDI]

Originally Posted by beef_bourito

don't forget the smartcar, apparently they're pretty cool. A co-worker got one about a month ago and just filled it up last weekend. Plus they don't cost too much, just like $16,500-25,777 with all equiped and has 73.8 lbs of torque at 1,800-2,800RPM, max power is 40.2 hp at 4,200RPM, and weighs what... 2lbs. Actually it weighs 730 kg(without the driver) so that's 55.1hp per tonne compared to the civic SiR with 129hp per tonne with less than half the gas mileage. Plus the smart car has all kinds of cool features. I'm not trying to sell the smart car (go buy one) but I just think it's really cool that someone has a cheap, non-sluggish, car with cool features and excellent gas mileage.

I think the Smart is pretty cool, but I wouldn't buy one just for the mileage. For how small it is, I actually think the mileage sucks. It's too bad they don't sell the 3L Lupo here, that would rock for an economy car.

But it's a great little car for driving around the city, especially when you need to find parking and stuff like that. And I also think it's pretty darn expensive for what it is... but I guess it is sort of a Mercedes. I've heard they're fun to drive.

[SaabJohan]

Originally Posted by curtis73

Ethanol would increase fuel consumption on an EFI car and it should remain the same in carbed cars.

Ethanol carries some of its own oxygen, so to retain 14.7:1 ratio by the O2 sensors, it needs to inject more fuel. That is why winter fuel is called "oxygenated." It contains up to 14% ethanol which carries it own oxygen. Great for HC and NOx emissions, but bad for fuel economy and rubber fuel line parts.

Ethanol is a great fuel, but with its 5% water content and high oxygen content, it burns a lot of fuel to make its stoich mixture. Something like 6:1 or 8:1... I forget. It also makes your oil a joke in a matter of a few miles. Ever see an alcohol-burning car's oil after 1/4 mile? It is a white frothy soup with very little of the qualities of its origin. Plus the alcohol washes the cylinder walls excessively causing rapidly accelerated ring and cylinder wear.

Just some more hurdles that we need to overcome with alcohols as fuels.

Fuel consumption increase with both carbs and EFI, both systems must be modified for ethanol.

Lambda sensors measure the lambda by measuring free oxygen in the exhaust, lambda 1 is for ethanol 9:1, around 9.5:1 for E85.

Ethanol used as motorfuel typically contains less than .3% water by weight.

The oil hasn't that big problem with ethanol, there are ethanol driven cars availible today, don't know how the oil change intervals are affected but I assume that the difference isn't that big.

[SnoopisTDI]

Originally Posted by SaabJohan

don't know how the oil change intervals are affected but I assume that the difference isn't that big.

This just reminded me of a comment I think I read in an earlier post in this thread, but couldn't find it. I believe someone stated that diesels had shorter maintenance intervals.

My 02 Golf, diesel, as listed in the operators manual, has an oil change interval of 10,000 miles. I've had my oil analyzed after 10,000 miles- half of which was highway driving at high speeds(frequently exceding 100mph), and the other half very short trips(sub 5 miles) in city driving. Probably the worst two duties for oil. The analysis showed the oil as being just fine. With a more conservative commute, I wouldn't be surprised to see a 20,000 mile service interval being ok. I'd still change the filter at 10k though.

[SaabJohan]

Some newer EMS can calculate the oil quality dependning how you drive, so it can provide a warning that the oil must be changed. For this to work properly one must of course use the correct oil.

If we take a look on the larger diesels found in trycks thay have both longer intervals and a longer engine life.