F-430 vs. Gallardo/GT/Murcielago

[Layla's Keeper]

No, the most famous Le Mans win was in Ford/Shelby/Holman-Moody's name with Dan Gurney and A.J. Foyt in 1967. This was the only year in which Ferrari AND Ford stood on equal ground equipment wise and was the only year in which the GT40 was completely Ford and contained no Lola holdovers.



Honestly, the 1964 GT40 was a pile of a chassis and and in 1965 Carrol Shelby's real concern was his Cobra Daytona coupes instead of the fledgling Ford prototype. The 1966 Ferrari 330 P3 was a decent chassis and good engine, but was cloaked in a real drag (pun intended) of a body, plus the still carbureted 3.0L V12 wasn't up to making the power of the Holman-Moody developed 427ci side-oiler V8.

And of course 1968 saw no factory Ferraris and 1969 was a year of upheaval with Ferrari developing the 312P and the 512M series.

But in 1967, you had a battle of true titans between privateer GT40 MkII's (including the Wyer cars), an ex-Mirage GT40 campaigned by Wyer (trust me, it's a wholly unique car), the shockingly fast Chapparal 2F, the gorgeous and potent (now mechanically fuel-injected and completely aerodynamically revised) Ferrari 330P4's, the stout Porsche 908's, and the blazing fast GT40 MkIV's.

1967 remains the ultimate year at Le Mans and indeed in prototype racing history. Nothing before or since has ever had the drama of the P4 sweeping Daytona, then the GT40 coming back to take Sebring, and then (save for one grand Chapparal victory at Brands Hatch) the pair trading back and forth the lead at Le Mans.

[syr74]

Well, I was thinking I was going to have to blast Layla's Keeper there with his first blatantly Ferrari-biased post, but he redeemed himself nicely with the last one.

That said my only complaint is with the comment that the MkIV's/Mirage car could not compete with the 330. At Lemans the MkIV simply outran the Ferrari, especially later in the race.

Gurney even pulled off the track daring the fastest Ferrari to pass! When he did, Gurney overtook the Ferrari and ran away from it. I would call that proving a point about speed.

As a matter of fact, the 67 LeMans win is what got the MkIV essentially banned as if it were not for a crash there was a genuine fear within Ferrari that the GT's would create a bigger sweep of the top positions than they did in 66.

Enzo feigned dissapointment that the big-inch engines went away. But, after the Monza debacle in 65 nobody but the Ferrari faithful bought it.

[drunken monkey]

..it's always nice to get a better complete picture of the events.
when you read the ford articles, they only tend to say that they won this and this and this.
then you read the ferrari articles and they say they won that and that and that.

it's not often you get something that tells you who won what in relation to everything else.

oh,
and it's nice to hear people mention the chapparals once in a while...
chapparal 2 and the birdcage rank as two of my favourite cars of that type.

personally i'm a bigger fan of the lighter and smaller engined gt40s of john wyer as opposed to the (over) engined and heavier american ford efforts
(as you might've noticed...)

[Layla's Keeper]

Syr, I'm Tifosi, it's forbidden for me to admit just how fast the GT40 MkIV was.

Seriously, though, the MkIV was an incredible car, but doesn't change the fact that it was only a factor at Sebring and Le Mans. It wasn't ready in time for Daytona, and the MkII's couldn't keep pace with the P4 at Daytona, and sat out the European circuit until Le Mans (and sat out the rest of the European circuit until it and the Chapparal were snubbed by displacement regulations afterwards).

And, actually, Enzo was genuinely disappointed when the new displacement regs came into play. At the time, he was using Can Am as a testbed for a new 6.0L V12.



Say hello to Chris Amon in the 1968 Ferrari 612P Can Am. A 650hp, 6.0L (later 6.9L with 720hp!) V12 that Enzo wanted for the successor to the 330P4. However, rule changes brought about the 312P and ultimately the 512S and 512M instead.

[syr74]

[quote=Layla's Keeper]Syr, I'm Tifosi, it's forbidden for me to admit just how fast the GT40 MkIV was.

Seriously, though, the MkIV was an incredible car, but doesn't change the fact that it was only a factor at Sebring and Le Mans. It wasn't ready in time for Daytona, and the MkII's couldn't keep pace with the P4 at Daytona, and sat out the European circuit until Le Mans (and sat out the rest of the European circuit until it and the Chapparal were snubbed by displacement regulations afterwards).

And, actually, Enzo was genuinely disappointed when the new displacement regs came into play. At the time, he was using Can Am as a testbed for a new 6.0L V12.



The MkIV was obviously not ready for Daytona, and if it was not for the fact that it obviouly helped ready the car for the future Ford would have been better off to simply run the MkII's at Daytona IMHO. However, development work was so often done in the real world (on the track) back then and the MkIV eventually, as you indicate, showed it's full potential.

In light of Ferrari's apparent 6.0L V-12 ambitions it would appear that the rules board stopped the fun just as it was starting though. You see, Ford had a 3-valve 427ci V-8 under development for the MKIV for the upcoming 68 season. Believe it or not this was only very loosely related to the pushrod V-8 used in the MkIV, and was virtually ready when the rules changed.

6.0L V-12 Italians versus 7.0L 3-valve V-8 Americans...it would have been one for the history books. And of course you know, Ford would have kicked Ferrari's ass......lol

[syr74]

That said I want add one more thing. For those who don't know the history this was the golden age of racing.

Ford versus Ferrari.........every time I hear that I have to grin.

[Kurtdg19]

Originally Posted by syr74

That said I want add one more thing. For those who don't know the history this was the golden age of racing.

Ford versus Ferrari.........every time I hear that I have to grin.

. Fortunately/Unfortunately (however you look at it), things nowadays are quite lopsided if you know what I mean. Ferrari is like the Yankees. You love to hate them!! Or you just love them!!

My analogy would be that the GT40 was the equivalent to the 04' RedSox. If anybody follows america's pastime, you'll know what I mean.

[syr74]

What do you mean Kurtdog? Because as you likely know, Ford guys loved to hate Ferrari even back then...lol.

Ford and Ferrari just do not seem to have an international forum for racing that both actually like. For all the guff Ford took about leaving F-1, the reason Ford was never overly interested is obvious. F-1 does virtually nothing to help Ford in America which just is not going to fly very well with FoMoCo brass.

Too bad too, as these two companies really seem to like to go at it on the track.