Cadillac Vrs.BMW

[burntrice087]

Alright which one of these top Luxury car makers are the best...we have the all time american favorite Cadillac against the great Bavarian autoworks BMW......

[del]

best is a subjective term. cadillac fans will say cadillacs are best, same with bmw. i will say cadillac is the best american luxury car IMO. lincoln doesn't really have anything i'm a big fan of. the navigator is nice though. the rest are bleh. i'm not sure i'll say BMW is the best german lux car. i have a bias towards audi mainly coz i own one. haha. dont' count taht as a knock on BMW, i like BMW's.

i'm sure once Dinan replies, you'll have a strong vote for BMW.

[curtis73]

Between those two I would say BMW hands down. They win on assembly quality, quality of parts, reliability... at least when you compare things like the CTS and the 5-series and 7-series.

BMW has somehow maximized nearly every parameter of the driving experience with the least number of tradeoffs. Somehow they have managed to take vehicles far beyond the numbers and the driving experience you get behind the wheel is invigorating. Combine that with rock solid build quality, a good warranty, a maintenance plan, and reliability that rivals Toyota, and I would lean toward the BMW.

[DinanM3_S2]

Originally Posted by del

I'm sure once Dinan replies, you'll have a strong vote for BMW.

When it comes to comparisons involving BMWs im not even sure why I post anymore, everyone knows my answer. If your at all interested in enjoying your driving experience BMW wins. They:
1) look better
2) drive better
3) last longer

The only reasons I can see that you would buy a Cadillac over a competing BMW would are:
1) You'll only buy American
2) Your old and can't afford a Benz, but want something better then a Buick
3) You happen to be the US Government

Ill stop trashing "The Standard of the World" and try to be kind now. Five years ago or so, Cadillac was worthless. They were better then Lincoln (who isn't?) and thats about it. When GM decided that Cadillac's customer base was averaging 70-80 years old, and would be nearly completely desceased in 10-20 years, they decided they needed to do something. So they got some the rights to "Rock n' Roll" by Led Zeppelin, and built the CTS, the first American luxury car worth buying in a VERY long time. Not the best car in its segment, but no longer next to worse. OK handling and a 255hp engine make the CTS eligible to compete with BMW, Audi, and Infiniti. The CTS is even better then Cadillac's similarly aging European counterpart's entry level car, the Benz C-Class. Since then Cadillac has made the XLR (better then Lexus SC, not as good as SL500), the STS (better then DeVille, not as good as the 5-series), the CTS-V (good effort for the first American car in segment, but I like my M3 more ). Cadillac has come a long ways since the 80's and 90's, but they can't match BMW. Cadillac is now an average luxury car company in my eyes. The only weakness being the DeVille, which is just as big as the STS, but weaker, at about the same price. I salute GM for that they have done with Cadillac, but it isn't as good as BMW. Sorry for the rant. I applaud all that read that entire thing. I am just now realizing how long it is.

[blindside.AMG]

Cadillac based on reliability and price alone.

Sorry Bimmer fans, BMW's reliability is turning to shit. End of story.

[MexSiR]

No comparison. Bmw all the way.

[Jimster]

Originally Posted by blindside.AMG

Cadillac based on reliability and price alone.

Sorry Bimmer fans, BMW's reliability is turning to shit. End of story.

All because your parents friends (Or is it Vice Versa, I can't remember) have a crap 7 series? I have a crap Honda that's falling to bits faster than my Fiat's, but I'm not exactly going to conclude that Hondas fall to bits faster than Fiat's from one dodgy lemon, am I?

But yes, even as a staunch BMW fan I'll admit that the iDrive fitted to the 5 and 7 Series is an unwanted headache with glitches that shouldn't be there, but there's not much else wrong with the rest of the car.

And yes I'd take BMW any day of the week over Cadillac. Firstly Cadillac made thier first good car in 60 years just two years ago (the CTS), the CTS still falls short of a 3 series, the STS isn't as good as a 5 series and the Escalade is light years behind the X5. and all this is based on both driving dynamics, engines and technology (Especially BMW's advancement with diesel motors).

It's as simple as BMW being a true and tried maker of sporting saloons and Cadillac being the American Lexus (Supplier of cars to the Blue-rinse Brigade)

That said, both makers new designs are ugly (Though the Z4, 6 and 7 series are slightly excusable)

[crayzayjay]

Incredibly easy decision for me. BMW.

And the reliability thing is being completely blown out of proportion, BMW's are still very reliable cars. In fact BMW only scored behind Honda and Toyota in the Top Gear survey (52,000 motorists surveyed) in the manufacturer rankings.

Anyway, like Dinan says, BMW drive better and are better engineered. I also think they look better - the Z4 i loved from the start, and the 6 looks great in the flesh, very menacing. The 5 and 7 are very sensitive to wheel and colour choices, but when those are right, they look great. The forthcoming 3-series (E90) does look very plain from the back, hopefully that's something they'll fix for the 4-series coupe.

[Kurtdg19]

Originally Posted by Jimster

All because your parents friends (Or is it Vice Versa, I can't remember) have a crap 7 series? I have a crap Honda that's falling to bits faster than my Fiat's, but I'm not exactly going to conclude that Hondas fall to bits faster than Fiat's from one dodgy lemon, am I?

This is very true Jimster. But if I were in in blindsides's shoes, and all the BMW's I witnessed had all sorts of reliability issues, I would also be inclined to stay away.

I choose the BMW to. Although the Caddy's overall change was quite unbelievable (especially what I hear about the new STS), they still have some catching up to do against BMW which have based on a curve, perfected their cars.

BMW - A+
Caddillac - a very respectable B,B+

[curtis73]

Caddy reliability is improving, meaning that owners are pleasantly surprised and don't take their cars in for that drivetrain vibration or loose weatherstripping. On the other hand, BMW owners are used to darn near perfection, so they take their 7-series back because the floormats don't stay in place. We call it reliability elasticity in the biz and its a well-known dynamic. The reliability ratings are based on problems per miles. I use reliability ratings as much as the next person, but you have to bias them against the clientele. Even within the BMW line the 7 series gets a bad rap. Why? The type of owner who buys a $60,000 750iL is different from the person who buys a 318 hatchback. The 750 owner expects far more from his/her car and the frequency of warranty claims is much higher despite the fact that they actually have fewer "problems" mechanically. An extreme example of this is my father and his 88 chevy pickup. While under warranty the shackle bolt fell out of the leaf spring. Instead of taking it in, Dad just put a new bolt in and kept driving it. That is a major failure, but his response was just, "its a truck" and since he could repair it in 10 minutes instead of three days at Mr. Deadwrench, it never made it to the record books. Contrast that with BMW owners claiming warranty repairs for "a poor exhaust sound." (which was a true claim from our garage)

What it boils down to is that even if the Caddy were rated higher in reliability, that does not make it a more reliable vehicle. The two new CTS's that I've driven both had exhaust rattles and one had a brake light on. They may have been isolated incidents, but given the expectations of Cadillac owners (and GM owners in general), a CTS would seem far more reliable than what they drive right now.

Its all perspective and it depends on if you're looking up to the Caddy or looking down to the 3 series.

I'm just getting tired of the misconceptions about BMW. I used to HATE them until I got actual experience with them. Now I think they are one of the greatest vehicles ever created; light years ahead of anything GM ever made including the best Caddy. I might compare a CTS to an E46, but its nowhere near a new Bimmer.

An excellent example of this elasticity is at the Tire Rack website. Take a look at the customer reviews. I get a kick out of a person who buys Z-rated rubber for his SUV with 26" wheels, then says, "these tires are great in the snow." They are terrible in the snow, but they are new tires, and compared to the bald 16" ribbed rubber that was on there, it does better than he expected. A huge difference.

[blindside.AMG]

Originally Posted by curtis73

On the other hand, BMW owners are used to darn near perfection, so they take their 7-series back because the floormats don't stay in place. We call it reliability elasticity in the biz and its a well-known dynamic. The reliability ratings are based on problems per miles. I use reliability ratings as much as the next person, but you have to bias them against the clientele. Even within the BMW line the 7 series gets a bad rap. Why? The type of owner who buys a $60,000 750iL is different from the person who buys a 318 hatchback. The 750 owner expects far more from his/her car and the frequency of warranty claims is much higher despite the fact that they actually have fewer "problems" mechanically._______Contrast that with BMW owners claiming warranty repairs for "a poor exhaust sound." (which was a true claim from our garage)

But don't you think it's completely valid for the minor problems to be factored into the vehicles overall reliabilty when the car's price is $60,000+?

No one ever said that the Germans couldn't make a damn near perfect drivetrain. They're the best in the business at making bomb-proof drivetrains that last a long long time with relatively few problems (but God help your bank account if something goes wrong when the vehicle is out of warranty). I applaud Mercedes on that fact alone. I see a lot of vehicles that come into the shop for all sorts of electrical and convience problems but not a single mechanical failure. Granted I'm a Mercedes technician and have little experience with BMW but I can only assume BMW is following the same road.

Mercedes, Audi, and VW are already near the bottom of the list in terms of reliability and it seems as BMW brings out more of these completely redesigned cars they move closer and closer to the bottom as well.

For the record, I highly doubt this slip in reliability will last long for these German companies. The German people are way to proud of their engineering skills for them to be mocked for having unreliable cars. I've already seen vast improvements made on the latest Mercedes models and hopefully they can keep it up.

[Jimster]

Originally Posted by blindside.AMG

But don't you think it's completely valid for the minor problems to be factored into the vehicles overall reliabilty when the car's price is $60,000+?

No one ever said that the Germans couldn't make a damn near perfect drivetrain. They're the best in the business at making bomb-proof drivetrains that last a long long time with relatively few problems (but God help your bank account if something goes wrong when the vehicle is out of warranty). I applaud Mercedes on that fact alone. I see a lot of vehicles that come into the shop for all sorts of electrical and convience problems but not a single mechanical failure. Granted I'm a Mercedes technician and have little experience with BMW but I can only assume BMW is following the same road.

Mercedes, Audi, and VW are already near the bottom of the list in terms of reliability and it seems as BMW brings out more of these completely redesigned cars they move closer and closer to the bottom as well.

For the record, I highly doubt this slip in reliability will last long for these German companies. The German people are way to proud of their engineering skills for them to be mocked for having unreliable cars. I've already seen vast improvements made on the latest Mercedes models and hopefully they can keep it up.

Certainly true of Mercedes, I had a look at a CLS500 a few weeks ago, very impressed by the quality of the assembly. So I think Mercedes have stuck to thier promise of better cars.

I've also seen Audi slowly make its way back up the charts, though, until VW either upskills it's Mexican workforce then the marque will continue to languish at the bottom of most reliability charts (A shame really because the 2001+ Passat is a really well made and reliable car, provided it doesn't use a 1.8T with the dodgy ignition coils). BMW's small slip has mainly been the fault of iDrive, BMW will rectify the problem sooner or later, no doubt.


OK we can go back on topic now.

[YogsVR4]

I've been a fan of the 7 series and 3 series for a long time. Though there have been some reliability issues cropping up here and there, overall they are the cream of that crop.

I've always equated the Caddy with my grandmother and I can't get past that image with them.

[curtis73]

Originally Posted by blindside.AMG

But don't you think it's completely valid for the minor problems to be factored into the vehicles overall reliabilty when the car's price is $60,000+?

I believe that the expectations should be higher for a vehicle that expensive, but the reporting of "failures" should be standardized. If a chevy truck owner goes in complaining about an exhaust noise problem, he/she is turned away saying that its operating normally and they all sound that way. A BMW owner's car is admitted for diagnostics. The BMW in this case has a reportedly lower reliabilty for this reason. That was a poor analogy, but that is basically what happens.

No one ever said that the Germans couldn't make a damn near perfect drivetrain. They're the best in the business at making bomb-proof drivetrains that last a long long time with relatively few problems (but God help your bank account if something goes wrong when the vehicle is out of warranty).

While I agree with your assesment of reliability, is it fair to say that the repair costs are so huge? I can repair my E30 cheaper than I can repair my wife's Tercel. The cost of parts and labor at a dealer are always inflated, but BMW has cornered the market there with prices sometimes 800% higher than what you can find elsewhere for BMW original parts. If I took my E30 to the dealer near me in Beverly Hills for a valve adjustment, it would cost over $500. In Burbank, about $400. In my backyard.... $34.99. I think the public reacts to these high prices accordingly, but its a shame that people who don't do their own maintenance and repair are fed this BS that they have to go to the dealership for "proper" care. Its a falsehood that your BMW salesman leads you to believe is what is best for your car, but it usually just lightens your wallet.

Mercedes, Audi, and VW are already near the bottom of the list in terms of reliability and it seems as BMW brings out more of these completely redesigned cars they move closer and closer to the bottom as well. For the record, I highly doubt this slip in reliability will last long for these German companies. The German people are way to proud of their engineering skills for them to be mocked for having unreliable cars. I've already seen vast improvements made on the latest Mercedes models and hopefully they can keep it up.

Again, I think the "slip" in reliability is more from consumer expectation, not actual reliability. Its interesting that you list VW in with Mercedes on the "near the bottom" list. Mercedes in actual reliability is excellent, but consumer expectation and uncommon demands bring it down. VW is one of the worst in actual reliability, but consumer loyalty prevents things from being acknowledged. My friend bought his wife a beetle. It was a complete lemon, but instead of doing something about it, they traded it in on ANOTHER beetle. They gave more retail money to a company who shafted them with a bum vehicle. Try wedging a dead VW from its loving owner's hand. VW lovers are on par with Ford truck lovers in loyalty.

Back to the topic at hand. I would love to see a controled experiment with 100 BMW owners and 100 Cadillac owners. Give them all cars of their opposite loyalty (give the bimmer folks caddys and vice versa) and record the "problems" that occur in each. My strong guess is that the Caddy owners would find very little wrong with the BMW, but the BMW owners would have a very difficult time with the reliability of the Caddy.