Kerry and his minimum wage raise

[Cbass]

Originally Posted by DGB454

I guess 300k isn't measly depending on how large the company is. Didn't mean to offend if I did. I work at a corp. that has 150+ plants worldwide so I guess my view is some what skewed. Our plant makes on average $150k per month. Plants that average $50k per month or less have been closed in the past. Corporations have to keep the stockholders happy and if our ROI isn't at least 12% (9% for some of our plants) then they aren't happy. When they aren't happy people loose their jobs. I am in a buisness that you wouldn't think could possibly be threatened from foreign markets because the markup of the product is so low that the shipping charges alone would wipe out any profits the foreign competition would make. Not to mention everything we prodice is JIT. Waiting for the product to arrive from Asia or Mexico would take down our customers lines. Yet we are beginning to see a threat from foreign companies. Their labor is so cheap that they can hand make what we machine manufacture for far less. Sure our machines do it faster but you throw 3 more underpaid employees at it and they have no problem keeping up and still do it cheaper. The only thing that's keeping them out is the JIT enviroment. We are able to deliver product tomorrow on an order entered today. No warehousing needed. The point I guess I am making is that no one is safe from loosing their jobs to cheaper labor except I guess for service jobs but who is going to need those service people when no one is left working to buy that service?

It's ok, I don't get offended that easily

The company I work for is relatively small, and it is owned privately from my boss. He's a pipefitter by trade, he's worked hard his entire life, saved his money, and after a while started his own business. He came up the hard way, and he has something to show for it.

The kind of work his company does can't be outsourced, it's construction and maintenance. It has to be done locally, and even if there were large companies from out of town, it's not likely that anyone would want to deal with them, given that they wouldn't know the reputation of the company, and it would be very difficult to solve legal disputes should they arise.

Originally Posted by DGB454

Unfortunatly Canada isn't safe either. We are venturing into Canada and taking huge contracts from traditionally Canadian buisnesses. If we in the US can do that while paying our hourly factory employees $13.50 per hour start out then what do you think Mexico can do?

This is what opponents of NAFTA have been saying all along.

Originally Posted by DGB454

But who will buy the Big Mac if there is no middle class workers to buy them? CEOs?
I don't disagree that people on minimum wage need a raise to at least catch up with the cost of living. I do however see a time comming when manufacturing jobs will be filled with minimum wage employees.

The consumer driven economy is based on the middle class. IMO, politicians should be trying to protect the middle class, not help the wealthiest percentile make out like bandits at their expense.

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

No income tax at all. I don't believe in welfare just because someone doesn't want to work. Unemployment is for that.

Raising minimum wage does nothing more then drive up inflation.

So you're saying people who are unemployed and on welfare just don't want to work? That's a claim that you can't back up Yogs.

News flash, there aren't enough jobs to go around! Your right wing rhetoric may hold some water when there are more jobs than people to fill them, and labour is in demand, but when there are millions who are out of work, not because they don't like working and supporting their families, but because there are not enough jobs for them to work at, it's insulting drivel.

Raising minimum wage means that minimum wage employees can afford to keep pace with inflation, and the increase in cost of living. Or would you rather a see a large permanent underclass? Inflation is not drastically affected by a modest minimum wage increase, but consumer spending is. More spending, more products, more services. It's money coming out of the pockets of the employers, going back into the economy at the lowest level, products and services. That theory of trickle down economics DOES actually work.

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

CBass very poor reasoning. If they only had one employee, that $20 wouldn't be all that much.

Which is precisely why I asked, how much money did they make off of that 40 hour work week? If that 40 hour work week wasn't making them more money than they were paying to that employee, they wouldn't be in business. If they can't afford to pay minimum wage and still make a profit, maybe they should sell their business and go back to doing what everyone else does. Working for a living.

[Cbass]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Actually, it was excellent reasoning - though not well described.

Being unskilled and unwanted is not the fault of the employers. Its a result (generally) of being lazy and/or being unmotivated.

I'm amazed at how you make claims like this, without being able to provide anything to back them up. What's worse, I'm pretty sure you actually believe what you're saying.

No wonder you were such a staunch supporter of the war in Iraq, you'll believe any clap trap that agrees with your rhetoric.

So tell me, just how is someone supposed to acquire the skills needed to work? Assuming you are fresh out of high school, with no job skills, other than the electives you took during school, what can you do for a living? Not a whole hell of a lot. Unskilled labour, service industry jobs, etc. The only real option is to go to school, and get some job skills. Unfortunately, that doesn't come cheap. I had to borrow $10,000 in student loans to take a one year program, just so I could get some job skills, to get work. I'd like to be an engineer, but unfortunately, I can't afford the six years of schooling to get my degree. I can't even do it on student loans, as there is a $35K cap on how much money I can borrow, and that would barely cover my tuition. Work and go to school at the same time? When you're doing a full courseload of physics, mathematics and drafting, with two hours of homework to do every night, it doesn't leave much time for a part time job. So basically, unless you have wealthy parents who can pay for your education, you're stuck with a limited number of options. One is flipping burgers. The other is incurring massive debt. Neither are very appealing.

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Who will feed the unskilled? Who will feed anybody if there is nobody doing any work because they expect someone else to do it for them? There are a few people in the world who really need some help. There are a whole lot more that are just lazy asses looking for a handout.

Again with the claim that people who are out of work are just lazy. Answer this Yogs, if there are 10 people who need work, and only 8 jobs, does that mean the two people who are not going to get the job are lazy default?

You keep making the same bullshit claim over and over again, and whether there is any truth to it or not, we can't as human beings turn our backs on hard working people who are down on their luck, especially when the economy is facing hard times. Like it has been for 3 years now.

Who will feed anybody if there is nobody doing any work because they expect someone else to do it for them?

This is absolute claptrap. You're grasping at straws.

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

I've been unemployed for a short time a few times in my life. No need for public assistance because I didn't want any.

I have been unemployed as well, and I have never needed social assistance of any kind. However, if I'm unemployed for two months, that's about the extent of my savings spent on rent, bills, food, etc. At that point, if I still don't have work, I'm in trouble. I'd like that social safety net to be there, especially if something unforeseen happens, like getting injured on the job. Workers comp only pays for so long, and disability won't pay if you're temporarily injured.

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Again, raising the minimum wage does nothing but drive up inflation. Employer costs on each employee go up around 50% over every dollar in the increase. Its not just the people who are at minimum wage who see an increase. All the other employees who were making above minimum will also get a raise since their collegues lower down the totem poll will have caught up. This is nothing more then the labor rates of the job market correcting itself after an outside force meddled with it. Again, driving up inflation.

Because the $8 an hour employee is making 50 cents and hour more, the $20 an hour employee gets a raise as well? That's a pretty big jump of reasoning. Also, a small increase in the wage does not mean the lower paid employee has "caught up".

[tenguzero]

Yeah, I used to believe that a lot of programs that aid people -- like welfare and WIC and whatnot -- were useless expenditures of money, because a large amount of the people using the programs are lazy or whatnot. Then (on the insistance if my Sociology professor) I actually began to look at the stats, and do more than blindly proclaim the "aid programs are useless because the people who do use them are abusing them." Yes, there are some people who abuse the programs when they shouldn't be. Yes, there are illegals who play on loopholes in the system to milk any compensation possible while they're here. But a large amount of the people on assistance programs really do need them -- they aren't lazy, or taking advantage of the help. This is something I hear most often from the "right-wing" camp, but I've heard it from others as well. It simply isn't true. The vast number of people who DO use this assistance, use it correctly, and often for only a short time while they get back on there feet. The problem is, with inflation, debt, and health care costs being what they are, it's getting increasingly MORE difficult for people to recover. Sure, our unemployment rates are pretty low, but that isn't an indicator of how well the workers are actually doing money wise. Even if this smoke-and-mirrors economic "recovery" does begin to actually yield more jobs, that still doesn't mean they'll be decent paying jobs. And that's where something like a minimum wage increase comes into play. People making $20 or more an hour have nothing to complain about, and people making $11 to $20 or so dollars an hour won't be to inconvenienced, if the required minimum wage jumps up to $7.00. That WILL however, help to push up the wages of the sub-$11 class. And at a pay rate like this, every little bit helps. Even if it's just 25 cents more an hour, that's $10 more a week, or $45 more a month. That right there pays for gas (providing it comes down a little bit more in price )

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by Cbass

It's ok, I don't get offended that easily The company I work for is relatively small, and it is owned privately from my boss. He's a pipefitter by trade, he's worked hard his entire life, saved his money, and after a while started his own business. He came up the hard way, and he has something to show for it.

Gotta respect a guy who started at the bottom and carved a place out for himself.

The kind of work his company does can't be outsourced, it's construction and maintenance. It has to be done locally, and even if there were large companies from out of town, it's not likely that anyone would want to deal with them, given that they wouldn't know the reputation of the company, and it would be very difficult to solve legal disputes should they arise.

Hopefully that's true. You would be suprised at how appealing a low bid looks even if the company is from out of town.

This is what opponents of NAFTA have been saying all along.

Like me for instance.

The consumer driven economy is based on the middle class. IMO, politicians should be trying to protect the middle class, not help the wealthiest percentile make out like bandits at their expense.

IMO also, but there are so many middle class to take advantage of. A good number of them just float through life and don't bother voting, looking into their govt., or caring what is happening around them until it effects them. Politicians know they can get away with just about anything because people won't do anything about it till it's too late.
They are out for themselves and their friends. But I guess most here already know how I feel about them.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by Cbass

I'm amazed at how you make claims like this, without being able to provide anything to back them up. What's worse, I'm pretty sure you actually believe what you're saying.

Believe it - because its the truth.

No wonder you were such a staunch supporter of the war in Iraq, you'll believe any clap trap that agrees with your rhetoric.

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle

So tell me, just how is someone supposed to acquire the skills needed to work? Assuming you are fresh out of high school, with no job skills, other than the electives you took during school, what can you do for a living? Not a whole hell of a lot. Unskilled labour, service industry jobs, etc. The only real option is to go to school, and get some job skills. Unfortunately, that doesn't come cheap. I had to borrow $10,000 in student loans to take a one year program, just so I could get some job skills, to get work. I'd like to be an engineer, but unfortunately, I can't afford the six years of schooling to get my degree. I can't even do it on student loans, as there is a $35K cap on how much money I can borrow, and that would barely cover my tuition. Work and go to school at the same time? When you're doing a full courseload of physics, mathematics and drafting, with two hours of homework to do every night, it doesn't leave much time for a part time job. So basically, unless you have wealthy parents who can pay for your education, you're stuck with a limited number of options. One is flipping burgers. The other is incurring massive debt. Neither are very appealing.

My parents were far from wealthy. I paid for my own education. I did study my ass off to get some scholarships, but I also worked two jobs during the summer and part time while going to school to pay for as much as I could. I still had to borrow a few thousand dollars in student loans to pay for the rest.

Most people start at or near the bottom rung in their field. Be that a doctor or a burger flipper. Those with ZERO effort will stay there. Anyone else who puts in the time and the right attitude will advance.

Again with the claim that people who are out of work are just lazy. Answer this Yogs, if there are 10 people who need work, and only 8 jobs, does that mean the two people who are not going to get the job are lazy default?

What if there are 12 jobs and 10 people? What if there are 10 jobs and 10 people but two are still available? We can play the "what if" game all day long. That has nothing to do with the fact that I said most people who are out of work are lazy. Its not just the unskilled. Some people refuse to work for less then they were making before though they could very well find work of some kind.

You keep making the same bullshit claim over and over again, and whether there is any truth to it or not, we can't as human beings turn our backs on hard working people who are down on their luck, especially when the economy is facing hard times. Like it has been for 3 years now.

The economy has been getting better and better. Unemployment is about as low as it has ever been and we will ever see. Your own brand of bullshit again reminds me of Mr. Pot and Mr. Kettle

Who will feed anybody if there is nobody doing any work because they expect someone else to do it for them?

This is absolute claptrap. You're grasping at straws.

Let me see if I can get this through that cranium of yours. It was a response to a "Who will feed the unskilled if there is not enough demand for their labour" Those people are getting fed. There is unemployment compensation for some. There are hundred of private organizations to feed others.

You have a great gift of gab, but you seem to have a hard time grasping some concepts.

I have been unemployed as well, and I have never needed social assistance of any kind. However, if I'm unemployed for two months, that's about the extent of my savings spent on rent, bills, food, etc. At that point, if I still don't have work, I'm in trouble. I'd like that social safety net to be there, especially if something unforeseen happens, like getting injured on the job. Workers comp only pays for so long, and disability won't pay if you're temporarily injured.

Now you're running on around about unemployment compensation. What the hell does that have to do with the minimum wage? I said I didn't want to take it. I didn't say other shouldn't.

Because the $8 an hour employee is making 50 cents and hour more, the $20 an hour employee gets a raise as well? That's a pretty big jump of reasoning. Also, a small increase in the wage does not mean the lower paid employee has "caught up".

The $20 won't get a raise. Its the ones who were at $8 or so that will get one. There is also the FICA, Medicare, Payroll tax and (potentially) other money benifits that will also go up in cost. That fifty cents ends up being close to a dollar in new costs to the owner.