99 windstar still chugging really bad.. Help please

Hi guys,

I'm starting a new thread, trying to get some additional help!

My 99 windstar was misfiring, and it started all of a sudden on the highway.
Thankfully, many of you wonderful people have given me many suggestions.

SO, we've followed your advice so far... we (well...my husband doing the work, me being the beautiful assistant of course :lol:)

He has..
Changed spark plugs, done an oil change (using a bottle of that engine flush stuff), new fuel filter, cleaned egr ports, and put STP extra strength fuel system cleaner in the gas tank. (We couldn't find the Berrymans.. do they not sell it in Canada? (We're in southwestern Ontario) We couldn't find it anywhere) He checked all the vacuum lines and all ok.
He's planning to change the spark plug wires as well, but we have to wait til Tuesday til they're in stock.

The van is still running like crap :crying:. When doing the oil change, it was really sludgy (admittedly though, it was well overdue for an oil change, and we recently found out the place we've been taking it to for the last 3 or 4 oil changes uses recycled oil, not new).

I don't know what else to do.. we've sunk quite a bit of money & time into the van now, and it's still not running well... Plus I need to do my etest within the next week or so to renew my plates.... and running like this I'm not confident it will pass.

The engine light is off... no longer comes on while driving, and no longer flashes.. but it's chugging. Really chugging. Accelerates ok, it doesn't stall out at all, but really chugs both at idle & acceleration.

The gas additive was just put in today, so we're hoping maybe if I take it for a good spin tomorrow, it might work its way through and clean it up a bit..

Can anyone help me as to what to do next, or what else could be the problem? I don't want to keep sinking money into this thing when nothing is working.

BTW.. the EGR ports were REALLY gucky.
One of my hubbys buddys were over, and said he thinks my head gasket is gone when looking at the oil with the sludgey stuff. That gave me a mini-panic attack.. is this a possibility? The van has NEVER overheated, and never does the temp guage go over the 1/2 way mark. No white smoke, no "sweet smell" type symptoms I've found online.

Please help.. I'm not sure what else to do other than trash it, but it's not even paid off yet. :eek7:

Thanks again to everyone who can help.

Mom2boyzz

Well....we're making progress. No CEL. The EGR ports cleaned, oil changed, fuel filter changed. These are all regular manitance items.

Have you read Wiswinds write up (the posts at the top of this forum) on the KNOWN problems with the windstars?

First off, the fact that there's no CEL and the engine is running poorly troubles me! Does the CEL light come on when the key is turned on but the engine isn't running? There may be codes even w/o a CEL light. Do you have a code reader?

I think a compression test is in order just to rule out any mechanical problems. This would be a good thing to do when the sparkplug wires are being replaced since it involves removing all of the sparkplugs. Let us know if you need more information on a compression test.


I'm leaning towards the ignition coil. This is a known failure item. The insulation coating starts to crack and the coil goes bad. When this happens spark doesn't get to the sparkplugs.

Now, as to headgaskets. They were a problem on 95 Windstars. On 96 and newer Ws the lower intake manifold gaskets are the trouble makers. Do you go through antifreeze? Are you having to add antifreeze on a regular bases? This isn't normal if you are. It's going somewhere. Lower intake manifold gaskets can leak antifreeze in to the engine. I know that I need to replace mine on my 98.

I'm sending you a PM.

Is there anyone near these good people that could give them a helping hand? Let's help them get to the bottom of this issue.

Regards

Dan

From what you describe, I would think the headgasket is fine. Your coolant level would be dropping if the headgasket was leaking. A compression test would verfiy.

Our '99 Windstar started running badly one day just like you described. I was driving down the highway, everything was fine, and then in an instant it started running very rough and the CEL was blinking. That day I just erased the code and it drove fine for a long time. However, it came back recently. I had a misfire code for the #2 cylinder (P0302). Turned out the van had a failed injector.

Anyway this is what I would look at doing based on what I have read here on this forum recently what I know about cars:

Plug Wires: I would use Motorcraft wires.

Coil Pack: A bad coil pack can cause the promblems you are having. On my Windstar, it wasn't bad, but I replaced it anyway since it is in hard to reach place and I already had everything torn part.

Isolator Bolts: Check this forum for info on doing this. It is a straight forward job. Remove the wiper cowl from the van and it will give you a lot more room.

Fuel Injectors: After removing the upper intake (the black plastic peices), the fuel rail is held on with (4) 8mm or 10mm bolts. There is a valve on the front of the fuel rail facing the front, looks like a tire valve. Put a rag underneath it and use a something to push in the center of the valve. Fuel WILL spray out. That is why the rag should be there to soak up the fuel as it comes out. After the fuel pressure is relieved, just pull up on the fuel rail and the injectors will pop out of the engine. Check each one for crud buildup. You can clean them with brake cleaner. Each fuel injector has its own connector to the main harness. Pull off the connector and using a multimeter set to Ohms, check the ohms of the injector by putting a probe on each terminal of the injector. Check the ohms value on the multimeter against what the manual reads that it should be. When putting the fuel injectors back into the engine, put a SMALL amount of new engine oil around the rubber O-ring on the bottom of the injector. This will help it go back in and avoid tearing the O-ring.

Our Windstar had a dead injector. If you do find one to be defective, it may not be a normally stocked item at your local parts store. I would start with the injector that is located on the cylinder that gave you the misfire code.

Hi guys,

The reason they thought it was the head gasket was because when they drained the oil, it filled & overflowed a 9L drain pan.

I've never had a problem running low on coolant.. but when they checked the antifreeze yesterday, it was empty... and he had just added some about 2wks ago. The van really hasn't moved much in the last 2wks.

I'm afraid to continue spending more and more $$ on this thing, and then find out my head gasket is gone, and have flushed all this money down the toilet.

The sludge in the oil was brown.. like melted chocolate.

If we're looking at a coil pack, anyone know how much $ they are, or if there is a way to tell if its bad.

Thanks again

Oh... and Dan... no the CEL light stays off... doesn't come on at all, even when the van is not running.

Mom2boyzz

Well....we're making progress. No CEL. The EGR ports cleaned, oil changed, fuel filter changed. These are all regular manitance items.

Have you read Wiswinds write up (the posts at the top of this forum) on the KNOWN problems with the windstars?

First off, the fact that there's no CEL and the engine is running poorly troubles me! Does the CEL light come on when the key is turned on but the engine isn't running? There may be codes even w/o a CEL light. Do you have a code reader?

I think a compression test is in order just to rule out any mechanical problems. This would be a good thing to do when the sparkplug wires are being replaced since it involves removing all of the sparkplugs. Let us know if you need more information on a compression test.


I'm leaning towards the ignition coil. This is a known failure item. The insulation coating starts to crack and the coil goes bad. When this happens spark doesn't get to the sparkplugs.

Now, as to headgaskets. They were a problem on 95 Windstars. On 96 and newer Ws the lower intake manifold gaskets are the trouble makers. Do you go through antifreeze? Are you having to add antifreeze on a regular bases? This isn't normal if you are. It's going somewhere. Lower intake manifold gaskets can leak antifreeze in to the engine. I know that I need to replace mine on my 98.

I'm sending you a PM.

Is there anyone near these good people that could give them a helping hand? Let's help them get to the bottom of this issue.

Regards

Dan

The CEL will not always light when a fault occurs. You need a code reader to scan the engine. A fault code could be 'pending', meaning that the computer has noticed a problem and will monitor the fault to see if clears up. If the fault does clear up after a certain time period or number of drive cycles , the computer will set the CEL.

Mom2boyzz,

Do you know anyone with a code reader that would let you use it? I bought a mediocre one for $130.00 recently. It is a necessary tool for diagnosing todays engines. I willing to bet you have a misfire, a code reader will tell you which cylinder is misfiring (unless it's a random misfire, P0300).

Let us know how you make out.

Bill

On Edit: LeSabre97mint, sorry. I just reread you post where you already stated that there could be codes w/o a CEL.

Bill.... Yes, a friend has a code reader, we're trying to get a hold of him, its difficult as this is Thanksgiving weekend, and no one is around.

Even with the light off, with the reader tell us whats wrong with the van?

MOM

I'm thinking your bulb for your CEL is burnt out. It should come on when the key is turned on. Do any lights come on when the key is turned on? The lights (some of the lights are: brake, CEL, & oil) should come on as a "bulb check" when the key is turned on.


Dan

Dan.... Oh, yeah the light does that.. It comes on when starting up, but I mean it doesn't STAY on.

Sorry about that.
Lyndsay

Oh... and Dan... no the CEL light stays off... doesn't come on at all, even when the van is not running.

Dan means when you turn the key to the 'on' position with out starting the engine, does the check engine light come on? The light is supposed to come on as a system self check and then go out after the engine has been started.

Bill.... Yes, a friend has a code reader, we're trying to get a hold of him, its difficult as this is Thanksgiving weekend, and no one is around.

Even with the light off, with the reader tell us whats wrong with the van?

Yes. Turn the key to the on position and plug the code reader in. The plugin for the code reader is located directly beneath the steering wheel on the bottom of the dash. The key must be on to power the code reader. If there are any codes present, the code reader will give them to you, probably as 'pending' codes. If there are no codes, the code reader will tell you 'system pass'.

Also, has the computer been reset at all? If so, it takes time for the computer to set the codes again, i.e after a certain amount of drive cycles.

Bill

Yes, the light does light up for that "self check" but then goes back off.

How do we reset the computer, is it just disconnecting the battery for a few minutes? If so, we just went outside to do that after you suggested it...

I'm not sure if thats the right way to do it though :loser:
lol
Thx
Lyndsay

Hi guys,

The reason they thought it was the head gasket was because when they drained the oil, it filled & overflowed a 9L drain pan.

I've never had a problem running low on coolant.. but when they checked the antifreeze yesterday, it was empty... and he had just added some about 2wks ago. The van really hasn't moved much in the last 2wks.

I'm afraid to continue spending more and more $$ on this thing, and then find out my head gasket is gone, and have flushed all this money down the toilet.

The sludge in the oil was brown.. like melted chocolate.

If we're looking at a coil pack, anyone know how much $ they are, or if there is a way to tell if its bad.

Thanks again

I pesonally would not take my vehicle where they use recycled engine oil. Sounds like you just found out about it though. I don't have any experience with recycled oil, but that could be why it looks like that. Even new oil will eventually turn brown or black after being in an engine for awhile. Esentially it is burnt and has lost its lubricating/cooling abilities.

9L is quite a bit (probably close to double) of oil to drain out. Is it possible that the engine was overfilled with oil.

A compression check on all cylinders should be done if you suspect antifreeze getting into the oil. Cylinder pressures should be within ~10% of each other. I make sure that someone you trust do this so that you're not sold work you don't need (a lot of work).

A code reader can give you codes specific to a coil pack malfuction, such as a secondary or primary circuit falt. A coil pack can run $60.00 to ~ $120.00 depending on where you purchase it and what brand it is.

I use http://www.rockauto.com a lot for auto parts. They have good prices on their parts.

Bill

Yes, the light does light up for that "self check" but then goes back off.

How do we reset the computer, is it just disconnecting the battery for a few minutes? If so, we just went outside to do that after you suggested it...

I'm not sure if thats the right way to do it though :loser:
lol
Thx
Lyndsay

Sorry, I did not mean to suggest resetting the computer. I was pointing out hat if it had been reset, the codes would be lost and it will take some time before the computers reports them again. You will need to start the engine and let it go through a couple of drive cycles before the computer will set the fault codes again.

A drive cycle can be done by starting the engine and letting it idle to warm up, and then driving around a bit. When the engine is running, the computer uses montiors in the system to get feed back information from various sensors and systems. When a system or sensor reports information back to the computer that is out of certain parameters, the computer issues a fault code. You may be able to just get away with letting the engine idle for about 15 minutes or so. Keep the code reader plugged into the data port under the dash. You can read continously check for codes while the engine is running.

Now that the computer has been reset, how is the engine running?

Bill

Bill....

Hubby said he wanted to try to reset the computer anyway... I'm not sure why.

He just started it back up and no change in the way it's running.

Another question, if we take it for a spin today, and let that fuel cleaner he put in the gas tank work its way through, will that make a difference?

Is it worth it to go ahead and get the spark plug wires? DH said they looked fine, but doesn't know if there's something we can't see.

Bill....

Hubby said he wanted to try to reset the computer anyway... I'm not sure why.

He just started it back up and no change in the way it's running.

Another question, if we take it for a spin today, and let that fuel cleaner he put in the gas tank work its way through, will that make a difference?

Is it worth it to go ahead and get the spark plug wires? DH said they looked fine, but doesn't know if there's something we can't see.

The fuel cleaner will probably not make a difference at this point. If the engine troubles are related to a clogged fuel injector, then at this point it is probably to clogged up to be cleaned in that manner, if that is the issue.

How long has the plug wires been on the van? If they are the original ones or have been on there for a very long time, I would replace them. When it is dark out, start the engine and see if you notice any arcing coming from the plug wires. If the wires are arcing, you will be able to see at it night. Try not to have any other light sources nearby when check for this.

Plug wires can develop tiny cracks in the insulation that cause them to arc. Basically the spark that should be going to the spark plug, leaves the wire through these cracks and will jump to anything metal under the hood. This can cause misfires, lack of performace, and poor fuel mileage. If the wires look fine and/or are fairly new, they are probably fine.

Bill

MOM

Keep an eye on the oil. If it turns milky antifreeze is leaking in to the oil. Antifreeze is bad for the engine if it's in the oil.

Dan

The wires are the same ones since we bought the van about 2 1/2 years ago.
I'm not sure if the dealership we bought it from put new ones on it or not... I doubt it, as everything else they were supposed to do, they didn't bother doing.

So, I guess it would be worth it to replace them..
We'll try that tomorrow and see what happens.

We'll also keep checking on the oil, and hope that it doesn't go milky. (Will this look white, or still be dark, but creamy consistency)

Thanks again!
Lyndsay

You perhaps should send a sample of the crankcase oil to Blackstone Labs ... they can diagnose a lot of troubles. Sounds as tho you may have coolant finding its way into the crankcase ... Not good, especially if not attended to in a timely fashion.

This engine has about three paths for the coolant to find its way into the crankcase: Lower intake gaskets, front engine cover gaskets ... and the head gaskets.

i'm having similar problems with my 99 windstar, a little stuttering at the light, i had a oil change which i really needed and my oil was sludged and brown and they also found little metal shavings in it which they could not explain what caused it, my coolant also runs out fast but it stays at a minimal level way below the minimum line. i had it overheat and then had the thermostat changed which solved the overheating problem but i put water in it because i was warned that the coolant could be leaking in the engine, usually when i put the water in it makes the car run a little smoother so i can kind of tell when its running low. when it was running real rough a few months ago and the engine light came on i used lucas treatment and it stopped the knocking but after that i replaced the IAC and the engine light is still on with codes 171 174

i'm having similar problems with my 99 windstar, a little stuttering at the light, i had a oil change which i really needed and my oil was sludged and brown and they also found little metal shavings in it which they could not explain what caused it, my coolant also runs out fast but it stays at a minimal level way below the minimum line. i had it overheat and then had the thermostat changed which solved the overheating problem but i put water in it because i was warned that the coolant could be leaking in the engine, usually when i put the water in it makes the car run a little smoother so i can kind of tell when its running low. when it was running real rough a few months ago and the engine light came on i used lucas treatment and it stopped the knocking but after that i replaced the IAC and the engine light is still on with codes 171 174

Sounds as if you have a major leak somewhere. Adding just water instead of antifreeze will not prolong anything. Both are bad for your engine when mixed with oil. Antifreeze also lubricates the bearings in the water pump, something water alone won't do.

Do not use tap water or water from any other source as it will contain minerals that will collect in your cooling system potentially causing blocked passages. Use distilled water.

The 171/174 codes are referenced in a sticky. If that is not the issue, then there is a vacuum leak elsewhere.

Hay MOM

How is the Windstar coming?

Dan

Well, we let it run for a while with the fuel cleaner in it... but did not take it for a drive.. just let it sit idling in the driveway, as the cowling is still off.

We went out there tonight, to look for the arcing at the wires. There was nothing at all. No sparks, arcs, light of any sort etc coming from anywhere.

The engine light still has not come back on while leaving the van running.. I keep expecting it to, but it hasn't.

Now, it has improved quite a bit since cleaning the EGR ports, oil & spark plugs. It's no longer misfiring and running REALLY rough, but it's still chugging a lot, just not as bad.

Tomorrow, I'm going to call the local "auto recyclers" to get a price on the coil pack... because I don't know if that's the problem or not, but a lot of people have mentioned it so maybe.

The new oil in it still looks fine.. no discoloration or sludge (yet). Even when doing the oil change originally there was NO *white* or *milky* colour in it at all.. only brown.

Everything was closed today, as it was Thanksgiving, quite frustrating as we were home all day, couldn't go anywhere and couldn't do any work on the van at all.

So, for tomorrow after work:
check to see if there are codes pending, and if so which ones
call to get prices on coil pack (well I'll do that from work) Is there any way to easily check if the coil pack is shot for sure?

Not sure if we'll still do the wires or not.. hubby thinks we should, but I'm thinking if we didn't see any arcing, is it really worth spending the extra $$ on them if it won't solve the problem?

Hubby really thinks it may be the fuel injectors, but how can we check those to know for sure before replacing them all at a high cost?

I dunno... I just hope this thing gets working soon... I'm starting to lose my mind.

Thanks for all the help
Lyndsay

MOM

Here is a link I found on testing sparkplug wires: http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14273/css/14273_70.htm

Fuel injectors can be tested with an OHM meter too. In my opinion they all should have the same amount of resistace.

Dan

Dan, Thanks for this link, it's very helpful.

Once home today, we're going to check the codes, he's going to check the spark plug wires & fuel injectors as indicated in the link.. and try to figure out if the coil pack is bad or not as suggested in a previous post.

I really hope we can get this darned thing working, I'm getting so frustrated.

Thanks again, I don't know what I'd do without you guys!

9L of oil out of the pan is way too much. You mentioned oil had a chocolate milk appearance. I wouldn't consider that normal, sure seems that oil is contaminated with antifreeze. As others suggested pull plugs and do a compression test, appearance of plugs will also be a tip. If plugs and comp test are good, lower intake gasket leak is possible, there is also a coolant line that runs underneath the lower intake. This line has caused problems for some and if leaking will leak coolant into valley and into oil. You could also bring a sample of oil in for testing to check for antifreeze. Doesn't sound like the van has really been driven and gotten up to operating temperatures since the last oil change, this could account for why you haven't seen the oil level or appearance change yet due to a coolant leak.

The oil itself didn't look all that bad, just dark.

It was the sludgy stuff that looked like melted chocolate, and that was only under the cap... not milky at all. No white colour anywhere.

When doing the spark plugs, there was some build up on them, but not really bad.. but we know they are at LEAST 2 1/2 yrs old. There's no antifreeze anywhere to be seen, even when cleaning the EGR ports.

Now, if my head gasket was gone/going.. wouldn't it be overheating? This has NEVER happened, the temp has never even passed the middle range of the guage.

Is it even worth continuing with all this, and checking fuel injectors/coil etc if it's my head gasket.. or just start looking for another vehicle.

Will the codes tell me if my head gasket is gone?

The oil itself didn't look all that bad, just dark.

It was the sludgy stuff that looked like melted chocolate, and that was only under the cap... not milky at all. No white colour anywhere.

When doing the spark plugs, there was some build up on them, but not really bad.. but we know they are at LEAST 2 1/2 yrs old. There's no antifreeze anywhere to be seen, even when cleaning the EGR ports.

Now, if my head gasket was gone/going.. wouldn't it be overheating? This has NEVER happened, the temp has never even passed the middle range of the guage.

Is it even worth continuing with all this, and checking fuel injectors/coil etc if it's my head gasket.. or just start looking for another vehicle.

Will the codes tell me if my head gasket is gone?


If your headgasket has failed, then the car would overheat. You would also have to continiously add coolant to the radiator/overflow bottle. The codes will not indicate a failed headgasket persay, but a failed headgsket would lead to compression loss which could trigger a misfire code. A compression test on all cylinders would be a good indicator of a failed headgasket. 1 or 2 adjacent cylinders with low compression would be indicative of a failed headgasket. Do you know anyone who knows how to do a compression test or is there a mechanic nearby?

However, as I said earlier 9L is about double the capacity of the oiling system, so something doesn't seem right there. Was their catch pan already full from a previous job?

You stated that there was a lack of milkiness or white coloring, which is good. The oil will look dark after being drained from the engine, especially if it was past due.

I would at this point have a compression check performed with an oil analysis done. If the compression test checks out OK, and the oil analysis comes back being free of water/coolant, then I would say that you could rule out a headgasket failure or other failure that would leak coolant into the oil.

In summary:

Check the codes
Compression Test
Oil Analysis

Those three things will give you and us a better understanding of what is going on. Otherwise you just end up shooting in the dark. Keep posting back with what your findings are, we're bound to find the solution.

Bill

I have an 01 running like crap as of yesterday, sounds similar to what you are experiencing. My own fault for messing with it. I pulled my plugs out for inspection, regapped and fired it back up. Now it chugs pretty bad. I will pick up new wires tonight from Lordco ($45 to $60 - similar pricing at Canadian Tire) and install (after voting of course...yes I am in Canada too). I will let you know if it clears things up at all. I agree with Fordguy that you should look at how old the wires are and see if there is any physicall damage. Mine are orginal and the van has 130, 000 km. I can see some exterior insulation damage to one of the wires on the driver's side of the engine where the wire turns over the manifold and starts heading down to the front spart plugs (#4 I think?). The wires need to be replaced and if it doesn't correct the issue, well it wasn't money wasted, just need to keep looking. In my case, the wires are supsoicious as they are about the only thing I messed with aside from the gap.

One thing I started to do, but never finished yesterday was you can take one spark plug lead off, put a screw driver into the inside (be gentle) and make contact. Set the screwdriver against something metal (do not touch metal or wire with your hands) and then turn the key over to start and back off right away and you should get a spark if all is well. I am not sure if this can damage anything, but it tells you if you are getting a pulse or not. This doesn't imply that you do not have bad wires, just tells you if you are getting voltage out of the coil pack. Maybe someone can tell me a better safer way to test?

Andrew1941, that is a good test. I keep an old plug around to use for this test.

Just remove cable from plug in cylinder. Insert old test plug into cable. Place plug body against ground or use connector wire with alligator clips to ground plug body. Perform test.

It also helps to be able to pull the cables loose one-by-one while the engine is idling to see if all plugs/cylinders affect the engine's running the same. The cable must be allowed to spark to ground. Using a well insulated set of pliers, and gloves, will usually prevent shocking. Some times its more convenient to remove the cable from the ignition pack than from the plug ... but this can be misleading as it will interfere with the sibling-plug's firing.

12ounze, thanks for the help. I posted some follow up of what I found in another thread so as to not interefere so much with MOM's thread:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=925523

By the way, MOM, changing the wires did not help me out all, she is still chugging away as if I did nothing! I suspect I have a bad coil pack, but not sure...maybe some can help with testing procedure?

I can't believe nobody has not mentioned this, have you tried checking the fuel pump? I have had several vehicles act like this and it always ended up being a defective fuel pump.

Hey all,

Well, we're making progress but not there yet.

The spark plug wires were changed out today, with significant improvement.

The van is still chugging slightly, with some hesitation. No where near as bad as it was.

We'd say we're about 85% better than in the beginning, but it just doesn't want to go the rest of the way.

We're going to look for some of that Berryman's stuff, hopefully we can find it, and not have to rip apart the fuel injectors. DH is thinking it must be dirty/clogged injectors.. as everything else was pretty gunky.

The fuel pump was replaced last summer, as we let a family member borrow the van for a while, and subsequently found out they were constantly running it dry before putting gas in. Now that I think about it.. I'll be that is contributing to the problems we're having now!

Does anyone know if Berrymans is available in Ontario?
Thanks again!
Lynds

Mom2boyzz,

Good to hear that your making progress. Running the Berryman's fuel cleaner or any other will probably take 3-4 tanks of fuel before you notice a difference.

Also make sure there are no vacuum leaks, they can cause the symtoms you have.

Keep us posted.

Bill

.....Well, we're making progress but not there yet.

.....significant improvement.

..... The van is still chugging slightly, with some hesitation.

We'd say we're about 85% better than in the beginning, but it just doesn't want to go the rest of the way.

......as we let a family member borrow the van for a while, and subsequently found out they were constantly running it dry before putting gas in. ....


How about an update on the current symptoms? There are now no engine lights? There is still some "chugging" ... when? While idling? accelerating? crusing? Deceleration? All the time? ... No pattern? When hot/cold? Any accompaning noises? Except when chugging, is the engine powerful and responsive?

Driving a modern car 'till tank is "dry" is a risky practice. The fuel pump depends on liquid for cooling. Also any particulates in the tank (there are always at least a few) have a chance to concentrate in the smaller pool of liquid and collect on the pump inlet screen, ... some are forced thru the screen and on thru the pump ... shortening life of pump and in-line filter.

MOM,

I can't find Berryman's either and I am in the interior of BC. Nobody here has heard of it so I think it is in the USA only? Good to hear your issues are getting better.

12Ounce... Current symptoms are far better than originally. No engine lights, it's chugging at idle & acceleration.. but still has lots of power. A slight hesitation during acceleration, but no problems getting up to speed, maintaining or decelerating. We haven't taken it out for a spin long enough to get it nice and hot, but I'm going out shortly to take er for a rip to see what happens. The van has basically been parked for the last few weeks now, so hasn't had much of a chance to get hot.

The thought about last summer crossed my mind as I was typing it, because I remember them bringing the van back to me, and the gas light was on.. and they were like "Oh, yeah, that keeps coming on, then I just put in $10" :banghead:
Obviously, they're never allowed to borrow a vehicle again. I try not to let it get below 1/8 - 1/4 tank.

I found the Berryman's site online, and it says their products are sold at among other places Napa & Walmart... we have a Napa in our small town, so I'm going over there tomorrow to see if they carry it.

If anyone has any further thoughts, please share.. You're help is VERY appreciated!

COOL! I'm SO glad that MOM is making progress on this van! I'm glad the wires made an improvement.

Dan

Mom2boyzz,

Double check the spark plug wires on the van. Look for two things:

1) The plugs boots are firmly snapped onto the spark plugs. Sometimes you have to give a good push to make sure the boot is seated firmly.

2) Double check that the plug wires are wired up correctly. The coil pack fires two sister cylinders at one time, but if the wires are reversed on those sister cylinders it won't run 100%. There are 3 sets of two cylinders .

Your engine cylinders are numbered this way:

Passenger side back cylinders: <---1 2 3
Passenger side front cylinders:<--- 4 5 6

The coil pack is numbered this way:

5 1
6 2
4 3
v
Front of car

Keep us posted.

Bill

Its unfortunate that you aren't getting an engine light ... a code would help right about now.

Since its also chugging at idle, and not just during acceleration or hills, I'm personally taking fuel supply "off the table". I also doubt a misfire by an injector would fail to give a code and light. That leaves vacuum leaks and plugs, cables, and ig packs ... for my guess(s). Vacuum leaks gets my "favourite" rating.

Well so much for that idea.

After taking it out for a spin, about 10 minutes into driving, the engine light came back on.. and started flashing again :banghead:

On the way back home, the temperature guage started to rise. It didn't go all the way to the red, but about only about 1/8 away from it, then it would go back down.. be ok for a minute or so, then go back up again, and continue on like that!!

The chugging continues, pretty much the same. It had to work a bit harder to get back up to highway speeds on the way back home.. it got there all the same, but it did take longer than usual.

So I don't know what the hell to think/do now.

Well so much for that idea.

After taking it out for a spin, about 10 minutes into driving, the engine light came back on.. and started flashing again :banghead:

On the way back home, the temperature guage started to rise. It didn't go all the way to the red, but about only about 1/8 away from it, then it would go back down.. be ok for a minute or so, then go back up again, and continue on like that!!

The chugging continues, pretty much the same. It had to work a bit harder to get back up to highway speeds on the way back home.. it got there all the same, but it did take longer than usual.

So I don't know what the hell to think/do now.

Do you still have the code reader to scan the computer? Sounds like the computer picked up the code after a drive cycle or two. The flashing CEL makes me think that it is a misfire code.

Find out what code(s) the computer is reporting and post them up for us. The temp gauge is a bit strange. They're not exactly accurate to begin with. You can recheck your oil (on the dipstick) for signs of coolant in there. Also check the coolant level.


Bill

Yep, you really need that code(s). Do any parts stores in your area offer free code reading?

MOM

A temp gauge acting the way you described sounds like low coolant. My guess is that the lower intake manifold gaskets are bad. I believe that this could cause a missfire too. Changing the gaskets aren't really that hard. If you've already had the upper manifold you were half way there.

I agree that the flashing light is probably a missfiring cylinder and a code should be able to be read.

Dan

We went out tonight, and purchased our own ODB reader, we were sick of waiting for this other guy.

Hooked it up to the van, and nothing. It doesn't even register. No power comes on, no lights, nothing.

Hooked it up to the truck to make sure it wasn't the reader, and it works fine.. we got a P0201 code on that (trying to get THAT stupid F150 working too.. it failed the e-test)

So, I don't know.. we tried cleaning the connectors inside the van, and still nothing.

Just my luck

Check fuse #17 inside.

12Ounce... Thank you thank you thank you!!

Yes, that was the problem.. duh to me.

He got the readings.. the one was a dirty fuel injector.. and another code saying too much gas... I don't know the exact code, as I'm at work.. but I will post the codes as soon as I get home.

He did the test of the coil pack with a meter..and said 2 of the ports were reading less than 1ohm.

So, he ripped out the coil pack, and is replacing that, then working on trying to clean the fuel injectors.

I'll know more when I get home, and will post with updates..

Fingers crossed we may actually have the problem!! :icon16:

12Ounce... Thank you thank you thank you!!

Yes, that was the problem.. duh to me.

He got the readings.. the one was a dirty fuel injector.. and another code saying too much gas... I don't know the exact code, as I'm at work.. but I will post the codes as soon as I get home.

He did the test of the coil pack with a meter..and said 2 of the ports were reading less than 1ohm.

So, he ripped out the coil pack, and is replacing that, then working on trying to clean the fuel injectors.

I'll know more when I get home, and will post with updates..

Fingers crossed we may actually have the problem!! :icon16:

If your husband is cleaning out the fuel injectors by removing them from the engine, he can check the lower intake manifold gaskets at the same time. The upper intake manifold is the black plastic top (2) peices. The lower intake manifold is aluminum. If you have a coolant leak, it could possibly be there where the sides of the lower intake meet the back sides of the cylinder head. It may readily apparent that they are leaking when you take off the upper intake and fuel rail.

Tell your husband to lubricate the o-rings on the fuel injectors with a small amount of new engine oil. This will let the injectors slide back into the head/intake easily.

Remember to release the fuel pressure at the valve located at the front of the fuel rail, facing the front of the car. Use an old rag to soak up the fuel as it comes out.

Also, the P0201 code in the truck is for fuel injector 1 circuit fault. It could be a bad injector leaking fuel into the engine, are there any misfire codes? The issue could also be a problem with the circuit being grounded or open to voltage. Check the ohms value on the number one injector. You can also do a continuity test between the injector and a ground point. There should be no continuity between the two. You can possibly check for an open circuit by back probing the injector (connector still attached) and turn the key to the on position. measure the value between the two wires. One wire is for the 5 volt reference, the other is the signal return wire. Check the relay also.

If it is a straight six engine, number 1 is the first cylinder closest to the radiator.

If it is a V8, the cylinders are numbered like this:

4 8
3 7
2 6
1 5
v
Front of engine



Bill

Mom2boyzz,

What codes were given by the computer? Did you get your van running again?

Hi Guys!!

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, I've been working like a madwoman the past week.
Anyway, the van is Fixed!!! :grinno:

Turns out, it was the coil pack! Once that thing was pulled out, and taking a look at it.. my god.. it looks like it was hit repeatedly with a hammer! Cracks all over it, and really bashed in! I don't know how / why it looked that way.. but obviously it's not supposed to! I'll try to post a picture of it.

The codes we got were:
P0202
P0301

Cleaning the fuel injectors & changing the coil pack completely fixed our problem, and it's running like its brand new!!

Thank you all again for all your help, there is NO way we would have been able to fix it ourselves without your advice & instructions!
I wish I could buy you all a beer! :cheers:

Glad to hear everything is running well now with your van.

Good work!

Mom

Glad to help. It's kinda hard working from a distance.....but with all of the guys that jumped in so we had input from many helpful minds.

I'm glad that you didn't give up on it and that it's running like new. I thought for a bit that you were ready to throw in the towel.

Keep the trouble threads coming. (this isn't wishing trouble on you but I like to see people get their vehicals fixed!)

Dan

Hi guys,

I'm starting a new thread, trying to get some additional help!

My 99 windstar was misfiring, and it started all of a sudden on the highway.
Thankfully, many of you wonderful people have given me many suggestions.

SO, we've followed your advice so far... we (well...my husband doing the work, me being the beautiful assistant of course :lol:)

He has..
Changed spark plugs, done an oil change (using a bottle of that engine flush stuff), new fuel filter, cleaned egr ports, and put STP extra strength fuel system cleaner in the gas tank. (We couldn't find the Berrymans.. do they not sell it in Canada? (We're in southwestern Ontario) We couldn't find it anywhere) He checked all the vacuum lines and all ok.
He's planning to change the spark plug wires as well, but we have to wait til Tuesday til they're in stock.

The van is still running like crap :crying:. When doing the oil change, it was really sludgy (admittedly though, it was well overdue for an oil change, and we recently found out the place we've been taking it to for the last 3 or 4 oil changes uses recycled oil, not new).

I don't know what else to do.. we've sunk quite a bit of money & time into the van now, and it's still not running well... Plus I need to do my etest within the next week or so to renew my plates.... and running like this I'm not confident it will pass.

The engine light is off... no longer comes on while driving, and no longer flashes.. but it's chugging. Really chugging. Accelerates ok, it doesn't stall out at all, but really chugs both at idle & acceleration.

The gas additive was just put in today, so we're hoping maybe if I take it for a good spin tomorrow, it might work its way through and clean it up a bit..

Can anyone help me as to what to do next, or what else could be the problem? I don't want to keep sinking money into this thing when nothing is working.

BTW.. the EGR ports were REALLY gucky.
One of my hubbys buddys were over, and said he thinks my head gasket is gone when looking at the oil with the sludgey stuff. That gave me a mini-panic attack.. is this a possibility? The van has NEVER overheated, and never does the temp guage go over the 1/2 way mark. No white smoke, no "sweet smell" type symptoms I've found online.

Please help.. I'm not sure what else to do other than trash it, but it's not even paid off yet. :eek7:

Thanks again to everyone who can help.


please check your coil pack,thats what mine was ,the haynes ford windstar manual bought at can tire is very helpful, i got a used one through our gov't salvage but other wreckers would do about half price from new 80 as opposed to 140 new,hope this helps

Just wanted to say that we have a 2002 Ford Windstar van that has been chugging and we've replaced the fuel filter, changed the oil, put fuel cleaner in the gas tank, and had the manifold gasget and air filter replaced. Engine light has gone off but it still chugs. My husband was looking for a different vehicle to replace this one, but we really can't afford that. After reading this forum, we're going to try replacing the coil pack and cleaning the fuel injector and hope that solves the problem like it did for mom2boyzz. Our son wants to get his drivers license, but can't use the van when it's acting like it is. So frustrating. Thanks so much for all your help! Terese