Disappointed

performance for dollar I would say the Wrx wins.

And Ls1, have driven anything other than a domestic?

Because if you would you might be surprised on how well the import performance cars handle.
And the SS will only beat the new Z from a stop. That is if it is anything like the old Z, Z's have killer top end and you wouldn't ever pull away from one while at a roll.

Hell, compare a Z32 N/A to a Z28 from a roll and see how close that race is. 13 sec car Vs a 15 sec car and tell me you would just pull away from a Z from a roll.

Just personally I would take a broad power band, handling and road going skills over low end.
Just seems like more of a sports package.

Originally posted by LS1Steve
Okay, i call you crazy!:D

The camaro has been taking a hit in the last few years definitely because the economy and gas prices. Mustang has outsold it because the name is more of an american classic cliche that attracts first car just-got-my-license kids and your 40yr old nervous breakdown need-to-get-my-youth-back mid life crisis types who don't know dick about cars and want the most trendy thing available. If you calculate hp in relation to dollars spent, you will find that the LS1 (and even the LT1's) have been the cheapest dollar-per-hp, and dollar per top speed mph. You can get a Formula for $20k stripped down, what other new car can you get for $20k and go 160mph bone stock??? I guess it all boils down to personal reasons/opinions. You would take the Z, I love the Z but i'd take the Z...06.
See you on the road!!

(& hope you brought your 100shot!!) ;)


The economy and gas prices are not reasons why the the f-body are going away. SUVs consume more gas then any other vehicle on the road, and they are the fastest growing market. The majority of the SUVs cost more then the f-body cars, so it's not the economy. GM cut productions on Camaro/Firebird becasue of the growing SUV market, and because f-body are out-dated and out-sold by Mustangs. They should just keep only ram-air TransAm. The Camaros are f-ugly with the Chrysler Concord headlights! Why would someone even buy a V-6 camaro/firebird! hmmmm....that would explain why GM cut the production on it.

it IS NOT an economy thing, why do you think there are now 227 hp Subarus, 270 hp VWs, 450 hp MBs, 400 HP BMWs, the HP in the Mustang is going up and up as is the Z, teh Altima, the Accord, etc,etc... EVERY FREAKING car is getting more HP, and the Camaro is dying?!?!?

funny you brought up the tradition of the Mustang, I am 32 years old and I don't look at the Stang as having any more history than a Camaro SS or RS, or the Pontiac Firebird, all those cars had a great history (that must be why old americans always say "they sure don't build them like they use to-TIC). Those cars are FUGLY and drive like crap (btw, if that segmant is dead why are they bringing out a new GTO with so much power??).

Originally posted by Scottie300z
performance for dollar I would say the Wrx wins.

And Ls1, have driven anything other than a domestic?

Because if you would you might be surprised on how well the import performance cars handle.
And the SS will only beat the new Z from a stop. That is if it is anything like the old Z, Z's have killer top end and you wouldn't ever pull away from one while at a roll.

Hell, compare a Z32 N/A to a Z28 from a roll and see how close that race is. 13 sec car Vs a 15 sec car and tell me you would just pull away from a Z from a roll.

Just personally I would take a broad power band, handling and road going skills over low end.
Just seems like more of a sports package.

whoaaa there!!!

okay where to start explaining myself first.
As far as the WRX, great car, I just perefer n/a engines, I trust them more. I have sold cars for a couple months and worked in shops and have driven EVERY type of car basically. I know the camaro has flaws as does every car, but my main point WAS the dollar-per-hp. It does depreciate, but so does every car, cars are not good investments. Camaros will actually depreciate LESS now that they are discontinued, I believe the figure I heard was like 15-20% less. As far as TOP END, I am NOT scared. The LS1 is probably one of the first 5.7L GM has produced that actually breaths at high RPM (stock). The top end is AMAZING and is actually one of the highest points the car has. The powerband is excellent so all you really have better is the handling (which I admit). I'm sure GM has its reasons for taking a break from F-bods, if I had to take my best guess, i'd say they have spent too much time in developing engine technology rather that the rest of the car, it is one of the last sports cars with the solid live axle and thats partly to blame for the handling. Mine definitely needed some work before it was able to handle. I don't want this to get into a bad heated argument or anything, look at every car thread on the net and people will defend their preference to the death. We were all brought up differently and have grown to like different things. My preference is V8 torque, and i'll give up some handling to have it, untill I can afford something with both. I don't expect everyone to have the same priorities in a car, but if I meet you on the highway and we both decide to punch it from a 65mph roll, (before I modded the car) I wouldn't bet the pink slip if I was you. Now if we were at an autocross event (before I modded the car), I wouldn't be betting MY pink slip.

Yes, all cars depreciate, except classics and collectibles. But the Z will always depreciate less than the LS1, always. Like you said, simple supply and demand.

Well if I was to buy a Z over an LS1 today, by the time i'd be selling it, i would hopefully be at an income status where the depreciation $$ saved would be negligable. Well thats the goal. So I concentrate on which I will enjoy driving instead.

I wouldn't bet the pink slip if I was you.

I could take this as a jab.
Like if you were calling me a F&TF wanna be, but I'm not because I really don't think you meant it that way.

And I also really am not that educated an chevys (you might be able to tell) so it sort of leaves me w/ little to no credability on this subject, but I do know that I have raced 2 Z28's from a roll and won both. Now they may have been sorry drivers but how am I to know that.
My thinking is though that if they are average to good drivers and I still win, then what would a TT or a car that may be similar do? ( I call the TT and 350Z similar due to the similar hp specs and 1/4 mile specs)

I also said Z28 and not SS b/c I don't know too much about the different set ups between the engines. (besides the power gains, if there is any other differences)

Maybe I can get a good link to inform me?
And I am also sorry for calling you out by asking if you ever drove an import. That was just stupid especially since I have never driven a SS.

no problem.

one thing to keep in mind is that racing an auto from a roll is a whole different story than a 6sp. The stock auto has "dead spots" depending on what mph you start at. You have the WRX? cool little car, & an great bargain as well.

Actually one Z28 was auto but the recent one was manual.
Killed the auto but the manual stayed pretty much right behind my rear bumper.

And I don't own a Wrx, I just brought it up b/c of it's price and performance.
I drive a '90 Z 5 spd

interesting that you brought up Autos, I was on a walk with my wife tonite and a Vette passes by and the guy has his convert down, music going, chrome wheels thinking he is all cool, then the car SHIFTS (on its own) in other words it was an Auto, I almost started laughing. Why are 70% (or is it 80%) of vettes sold with autos????

btw, I spoke with a salesman on Thursday (a patient of mine) who has been selling Chevys for 30 years, he tells me the Camero is DEAD, and isn't coming back, where are you getting your info that it is coming back????

Why they sell auto Vettes, we may never know...

Actually, it's simple. Most of the people who buy Vettes are simply interested in picking up girls who think their car is dead sexy. Of course, I think the '72 Stingray is the sexiest car ever made, so maybe they have something there. My point is that most of the Vette drivers couldn't care less what's under the hood as long as the exhaust rumbles a bit, just like all the people with V6 mustangs and Flowmaster exahusts, revving their engines at every stoplight - right before getting wasted by the little white Nissan that sounds like a diesel.

Here's the deal with personal preference: a lot of people forget about the fun factor when it comes to sports cars. Ultimately, the car will grow on you much more over time if it's fun to drive. My Pulsar was quite slow when I first got it, but it was really fun to drive, especially after a suspension upgrade. Later, the additional power was great, but at it's core it was just tons of fun (more so than the 300ZX turbo I nearly bought instead!) The WRX is a really fun car on the back roads (think: dirt), but anything powered by an LS1 will spice up city driving a lot. There is still room for personal preference here, but it really depends on where you spend more of your time using the performance potential of the engine. If you only use it at the track, get a car with lots of top end. If you're a graduate of the offensive driving school, get something with monster torque. You get the idea.

The Camaro has always been about raw power and simplicity. The Z has had several distinct phases (pure sport to GT to... an Infiniti without leather seats), but over the years has become a more sophisticated car, with that unmistakable Japanese balance. Some days, I'd rather drive one, sometimes the other. If I could only have one car, it'd be the Z, though.

Another thing about Vette drivers, notice how many of them are turning into ricers. They don't usually cover their cars with vinyl, but a lot of ZO6 badging is showing up on T-Tops and convertibles. Hmmm...

:rolleyes: Guys, guys. Your not looking at this situation in a rational manner. Not everybody in the world wants a huge cruiser that can kick anything on a straight. Most of the roads you drive on have corners and turns. Most Amarican cars, beautiful and powerful as they are, are bloated highway cruisers. They have terrible handling. They're serious bang for buck, but please don't have the audacity to try me that American cars handle well. You have not experienced handling until you've driven a proper Japanese or German car. I've driven everything from Vipers to Pontiacs to Mustangs. I now drive a Skyline GT-R34. US cars are so cheap because they have cheap technology. They put a huge engin in a big body and make sure it can go fast. They soud great but they don't handle. The Viper and Pontiac have kitcar build quality and guzzle fuel. The Z has awesome handling, great interior luxury, speed, amazing build quality at a competative price. If you think dragging is fun, try a twisty mountain road. Anybody can floor a pedal. Control is the issue. The Z would kick any US car on a twisty road or townrace.

Please look at this from more than a drag perspective.

keep in mind that while everyone praises the Z, 99% of the people on this board have not yet even driven one yet

Getafix has it right.

and I also liked

, but it really depends on where you spend more of your time using the performance potential of the engine. If you only use it at the track, get a car with lots of top end. If you're a graduate of the offensive driving school, get something with monster torque.

from holyterror

i have the new 350 and its a show stoper i cant drive down the road without every one i pass looking and commenting as for the z28 you cant get better performance for your $ i had a 93 z LT1 headders borla intake and high flow cat and i roasted 2 new c5s(corvetts) the 350 looks much nicer in person pictures don't do it justice

Originally posted by LS1Steve
keep in mind that while everyone praises the Z, 99% of the people on this board have not yet even driven one yet

Yes, isnt that something. A car that has been sold to thousands, and who knows how many deposits are out there post pre-order, and without driving or even seeing it in person. That has to say something about a car, when it can sell out, without being out. So if the Z28 is the best bang for the buck, why isn't it such a hot seller, and why is the Z so hot. Let's face it, the Z28 is dated. Just look at your local race track. I haven't seen any Camaros racing at Willow Springs. On the drag strip, maybe. But come on now, who buys a car because it can go fast in a straight line. Yes, some people do, and we all have names for these people. The 350Z is an all around performer, both on track and street. On top of all that it is relatively cheap and has Nissan reliability. This is why the Z is the best bang for the buck in my opinion. Not because of its HP to dollar ratio. If you look at bang for the buck strictly on HP per dollar, then why don't you strap a V8 to a go-cart ,thats the best bang for the buck.

have you even read all the posts? I never said one was "better", just pointed out that they are different cars for different people. Please, graduate kindergarden then come post.

so anywho how many of u characters have driven the new z yet?

untill u drive 1, dont bash it coz lemme tell u right now, id take it over just about any car that has been mentioned in this post, its an all around car in every way and in my opinion it is a hell of a value; that is if u pay sticker price on it

Originally posted by LS1Steve
have you even read all the posts? I never said one was "better", just pointed out that they are different cars for different people. Please, graduate kindergarden then come post.

Hey, hold on there. Just because I quote your post doesn't mean I am taking a shot at you. As a matter of fact I never accused you of saying one was better than the other. The reason for my post was to express "my feelings" toward this "entire" thread. The thread title is "dissapointed", obviously in the new Z. And there were comparisons done between the Z and the Camaro by you and several other members of this board. I am stating my view on the subject. You stated a dollar per hp comparison and others were stating a bang for the buck comparison. My post addressed the later. Sorry if I used the Camaro as my comparison subject, but it seemed fit. In any regards, this is a message board, and a 350Z message board at that. So you shouldn't be surprised at the backlash you recieve when you talk about an LS1 or any car for that matter in any regards to the new Z.

If you truly are in college, then act like it. To post something like that above only reflects on the type of person you are. I hope that you are not that kind of person.

I just have to question since when did the 0-60 figure become the all important yardstick for measuring sports car performance? The Miata has a 0-60 somewhere north of 8.5 seconds and is still one of the most fun cars on the planet. The MINI Cooper S logs 7.1 and will eat up anything less than a Modena or Pagani Zonda on a curvy track. The Suzuki Hayabusa will get you 0-60 in something like 3 seconds (McLaren F1 takes 3.2). The 350Z is potentially a great sports car because it delivers so much for the price. Almost 300 hp, good looks, great handling and accelaration, Japanese reliability (anyone driving an american made car over 10 years old thats worth more than $1500 raise their hand) :D . All this for a price thats about 2/3 of a Corvette z06. Beat that!

Yeah, some people on this board are dissapointed because the 350z only delivers $50,000 car performance for $30,000. Some people are just to critical. If they spent $50,000 on the car I would understand the nitpicking, but $30,000 for a car most people(i.e. all the car mags) are calling "revolutionary" and "affordable", its a steal. I wouldn't be surprised if Nissan ups the price next year and the car still sells like hot cakes.

(considering a 350z)

i think it looks pretty good compared to the other street cars ive been eyeing over the last year- mostly 3 year old vettes or BMWs for more like $30+K. a brand new rear wheel drive IRS and LSD equipped sports car for $28K? im checking it out. i just wish it wasnt so heavy.

ive got a 73 240Z SCCA-ITS road race car and if captures that awesome car's feel, they've got a winner. anyone else have experience with the car that supposed the 350Z is supposed to emulate? the times are nothing like it was in 1970 though, as the 240Z had essentially TWICE the horsepower of the competition, 4 wheel independent suspension, AND was cheaper.

-james

Originally posted by Ophitoxaemia
(considering a 350z)

i think it looks pretty good compared to the other street cars ive been eyeing over the last year- mostly 3 year old vettes or BMWs for more like $30+K. a brand new rear wheel drive IRS and LSD equipped sports car for $28K? im checking it out. i just wish it wasnt so heavy.

ive got a 73 240Z SCCA-ITS road race car and if captures that awesome car's feel, they've got a winner. anyone else have experience with the car that supposed the 350Z is supposed to emulate? the times are nothing like it was in 1970 though, as the 240Z had essentially TWICE the horsepower of the competition, 4 wheel independent suspension, AND was cheaper.

-james

That is true, and also back then the 240Z's competition was very different. I believe they were the Fiat 124 Sport Coupe, MGB GT, Opel GT and Triumph GT6 Mk 3(R&T). Far different from its current competition.

however, i think the 350Z stands out less decisively not because of any deficiency, but rather because ALL cars are so much better than they used to be.

0-60 in 5.5 aint slow (and i drive a car thats 1.5 sec faster than that). you can get into plenty of trouble plenty quick!

now, ive just got to find one to look at.

-james

Originally posted by w0mbat
(anyone driving an american made car over 10 years old thats worth more than $1500 raise their hand

Any 30 year old Mustang is worth more than that http://www.karmustang.com

Any 20 year old Corvette is worth more than that -- and appreciating.
http://www.proteamcorvette.com

Any 20 year old Chevelle is worth more than that -- and appreciating.

You get the drift.

Here's one for you, find any 20 year old Japanse car that you'd want to have -- you've the 240/260Z to pick from.

First off 20 years ago was 1982 Japanese cars were just starting to get good. American cars were all ready gone to hell. And personally there is no 1980's American car I would drive.

Originally posted by skylinegtr34
First off 20 years ago was 1982 Japanese cars were just starting to get good. American cars were all ready gone to hell. And personally there is no 1980's American car I would drive.

Agree. Actually I think you could extend that to any American made car between 1973 and 1990.

But w0mbat's original post about no American cars over ten years old being worth more than $1500 must have been a joke.

Formerfordguy,

I was merely exaggerating for dramatic effect. American automotive companies have made some decent cars in the last couple of decades (Ford Escort Cosworth). Unfortunately, these have mostly been sold in Europe while we got the POS versions designed for our grand mothers. You may have noticed from my previous post that I dont much care about the 0-60 times and top speeds. I'd rather have a E31 M3 on a curvy road than a Viper GTS on a freeway. Different folks. Different strokes.

I didnt mean to belittle the US auto industry. So, no one take offense please

:)

it looks like this has turned into an american car bashing thread, i should get some users from LS1.com to come in here.

Its ironic though considering that this thread was started by a 350Z owner that was "dissappointed"

I've spoken to several people who have recently gotten a 350Z who also own an LS1, and they agree with everything i've said. Great handling car, but severely lacks the torque they are used to. Like mentioned above, different strokes for different folks.
Again, see you all on the road, don't bet the pink.

I've spoken to several people who have recently gotten a 350Z who also own an LS1, and they agree with everything i've said. Great handling car, but severely lacks the torque they are used to.

Well, yeah what did they expect?
They did realize they were buying an import that is made to compete in other ways then low end power.

If they didn't I guess they should be disappointed, but only due to their own ignorance. If they did realize that then they got what they paid for and should be happy w/ it.

That of course means 0-60 isn't every thing but don't say that the 350z is slow in the straight line. It just doesn't improve all that much on the 300zx TT (even though it is prob. more reliable, being N/A). And in straight line I don't see it being too far behind a LS1 to be disappointed in. Especially considering the LS1 is made for straight line speed (V8, high Torque, 300+ hp, etc..) and the Z (V6, broad powerband, 287hp, etc..) isn't.

Originally posted by Scottie300z


Especially considering the LS1 is made for straight line speed (V8, high Torque, 300+ hp, etc..) and the Z (V6, broad powerband, 287hp, etc..) isn't.

that is what they expected, and you are basically repeating what i just said, so whats the problem?

just feel like arguing?

My point is why does the comparison between the LS1 and the 350Z keep coming up. I mean everybody seems to believe that they are different cars made for different reasons.

And If I just wanted to argue why would I have agreed?

And I am not the one saying I might go out to other boards to recruit people.

alrighty then, case closed.


Originally posted by Scottie300z

And I also really am not that educated an chevys (you might be able to tell) so it sort of leaves me w/ little to no credability on this subject


I should have ended my commenting right here.

LS1Steve, exactly what kind of response were you thinking of getting when posting the following:

"I've spoken to several people who have recently gotten a 350Z who also own an LS1, and they agree with everything i've said. Great handling car, but severely lacks the torque they are used to. Like mentioned above, different strokes for different folks.
Again, see you all on the road, don't bet the pink."

Then you say that this is what they, the people you spoke to, expected. Why even post the first comment? It seems to me, and obviously other people on this forum, that "you" are the one looking for an arguement.

It also seems to me that you are puzzled by the reaction you are getting from your post. Here is a bit of advice: Always take into consideration your audience. This is a 350Z forum, and the majority of people reading this forum do not want to hear about American cars. But again you are free to post whatever you like, but do not be surprised when people do not have the same view as you.

the only point I am trying to make is that both are great cars in their own ways. But there are people who will argue that the 350 is the best thing in the world in every aspect. My comment on people I spoke to was just another opinion from someone who's actually driven both and agrees that the 350 is better in the handling dept. but not in the power dept., simple as that. He test drove it first so obviously he new the capabilities, that was not the issue. I suppose you're right about posting here, as the original poster mentioned, negative commentary of any sort will not be accepted about the beloved 350Z, gods gift to the pavement.

The 350Z was the first car I ever bought without driving. I am also somewhat disappointed with the off-the-line performance. It has been everything else that I wanted in terms of handling, style and pure fun. 1st gear is not impressive, 2-5 are a blast who uses #6? I love to driving the canyon roads of Southern California, not drag racing, so I am very happy with the car. However, I agree that Nissan missed an opportunity in the low end perfromance area. When I compare it to my son's VW GTI 1.8T, it feels slow off the line. We have been discussing finding a super charger vs. a turbo to help the low end since the top end is not where, I personally, need more power.

Dragon6

Yeah I don't know alot about camaros (at least not as much as imports, but more then non car people), but atleast I can come to terms with that and ask for knowledge so I can learn more about them.

1.I don't really remember bashing the car that wasn't related to first hand witnessing. And even then I believe I second guessed myself.

2.I did ask for places where maybe I can get to know more about that car but did I get any help? Noo all I got was you telling me I just wanted to argue. I don't see how wanting to learn more about a car is arguing.

3.Where are the people saying the 350Z is the best thing?
I haven't seen it.

4.Maybe instead of ending your commenting there, YOU could have ended YOUR arguing and helped a car guy out.

Ok time for my spam.

First I will answer the original question, why isnt the Z more powerfull. Because at this time Nissan is just establishing a market presence for the car, and one of the best ways is to build a qualty car that is balanced and INEXPENSIVE.

In a few years they will come out with a Turbo version with 400hp, but it will start at 36000 or so. What they dont want to happen is that they price the car out of the market of people that would want it and their sales drop like a rock, ala the 300ZX.

Now let me say that I am a mustang fan, thus the name, but I also love the Z. With that said the Z is not a drag car. Will it beat the Mustang GT in a straight race, probably yes. Will it beat any LS1 powered car, Z28 SS Trans Am Firebird Formula? No.

Straight up no, not on the bottem end 274 torque at 4000 on IRS for the Z vs 310 torque at 3400 on straight axle for the LS1. From there it only gets worse for the Z. At the top end the LS1 will run, not walk, run away from the Z. At the top end the Z's main benifit, being lighter, is less of a factor.

Like many have said the Z is not all about power it is about balance. Both good power and being able to take corners. More iportant it is about weither you love the car or not. Love of a car is the only real reason to buy a car. If you love the design and the hertige buy the Z, if not buy something else.

ps The camaro is dying for the same reason the 300zx died. Not enuff women are buying the lower end models. Beleave it or not most of the money Ford makes on Mustangs is not from GT's or Cobra's. Ford makes its money on the V6 model. Why because of HUGE volume.

And the Camaro will be back. Expect a new one in 2005 just in time to compete with the new mustang. Can you say 400 N/A horsepower from both, I know you can.

Well Said!
I agree 100%

And cars don't slow down as quickly as they depreciate. Point? You could buy something used for a boatload less cash that will crush a 350Z. ANY used Camaro or Mustang Cobra would make a 350Z's life pretty miserable. Heck, even some of them ratty 5.0s would do the trick...

I dont know how you can compare them. In pure stock trim, the Z equals or beats the Camero. Granted, the SVT Cobra will out drag it. But comparing it to the Camero, the Z will run circles around it in the turns, and forget about comparing suspensions. And what about the quality differential? There's no way that either the Camero OR the Mustang is going to have the body integrity and interior quality of the Z. The Japanese cars have the tightest put-together quality, and best body integrity of them all. I havent even mentioned my supercharged E36 '99 M3, which will drive circles around them all, because its a different price category, but not by all that much.

Originally posted by boostm3


In pure stock trim, the Z equals or beats the Camero. Granted, the SVT Cobra will out drag it. But comparing it to the Camero, the Z will run circles around it in the turns, and forget about comparing suspensions. And what about the quality differential? There's no way that either the Camero OR the Mustang is going to have the body integrity and interior quality of the Z. The Japanese cars have the tightest put-together quality, and best body integrity of them all. I havent even mentioned my supercharged E36 '99 M3, which will drive circles around them all, because its a different price category, but not by all that much.

In pure stock trim, the Z28 takes the 350z in the 1/4 mile every time. Handling, say on a road course, would end up in favor of the 350Z.

In the case of the new 2003 Cobra, it wins hands down in both contests over either car. With 390HP on tap, it has a 100HP advantage over the 350Z. It has the same or bigger brakes, the same IRS with limited slip, and would eat a 350Z alive on any course. Hell, it's nearly the same size and weight as the 350Z. And the 2003 Cobra is the same price (or less) as the Performance / Touring and/or Track 350Z models.

And your car? It's not stock -- so you can't compare.

One thing that would be nice in here is consistent comparisons:

stock vs stock
modified vs. modified

In pure stock trim, the Z28 takes the 350z in the 1/4 mile every time. Handling, say on a road course, would end up in favor of the 350Z.

I was really trying to look at the quality of the contestants as well. To me, there's very little that can compare to the best makes the Japanese have to offer. Certainly Chevy and Ford cant even play in the same league. In terms of quality of make, body integrity, and things like that, the 350z should win hands down. And as a bimmer lover, Im not even a big fan of Japanese cars. But, I do appreciate their make. On paper, there's not much wrong with the new SVT Cobra. I agree. For $35 grand (if you could really find one for that) the Cobra is tough to beat, if not impossible. But Ive driven in cobras, and to me, they feel big, clunky, and anything but smooth and sophisiticated. And in the corners, even with their new IRS, they still cant come close to an M3, and probably even, the 350Z. I know its skid pad numbers are good, but, if you put big enough meats on anything, it'll grip well. Thats not so much about the quality of the suspension as it is the meats used. But like I said, I agree that its getting alot closer than it used to be.

Originally posted by boostm3


I dont know how you can compare them. In pure stock trim, the Z equals or beats the Camero. Granted, the SVT Cobra will out drag it. But comparing it to the Camero, the Z will run circles around it in the turns, and forget about comparing suspensions. And what about the quality differential? There's no way that either the Camero OR the Mustang is going to have the body integrity and interior quality of the Z. The Japanese cars have the tightest put-together quality, and best body integrity of them all. I havent even mentioned my supercharged E36 '99 M3, which will drive circles around them all, because its a different price category, but not by all that much.

I guess I am in the mood to fight today.

How exactily does the Z beat the Camaro?

In Autox, maybe. The stock suspensioned SS is no slouch in road racing(stock vs stock), sure the suspension may not be as dialed in as the Z's but 310 Rear Wheel Torque at 3200 rpm makes up for a LARGE amount of the track Z's better suspension. Also remember that 310 figure is what most SS's see AT THE WHEELS, so if you calculate it out they are making about 340 ft/lbs at the flywheel. That is a MONSTER difference over the Z's 274 at 4400 rpm. 70ft/lbs more torque 1200 rpm earlier makes it easier for the SS to be lazy in the corners and just run the Z down on the straights. As for dragging see my first post, no way the Z hangs.

Like the nissan dealer said earlier. I have seen the insides of the Z, the Camaro, and the Mustang. None of them are that great, they all look a little cheap. Out of the group the 03 Cobra has the best interior and even it is NO WHERE close to a BMW or any other luxory car. As for fit and finish refer to the Z thread about people already having squeeks coming from there windshield dash area.

As for the Cobra, it will beat the stock Z in every compition. Does it have the road feel of a BMW, no. It is closer than it used to be but it is not there yet, and may never get there either.

As for your car boostm3, great car by the way, it is modified. Give me some money and I can build a Cobra or SS that will hug the road just like your car does. Once the modding starts it doesnt matter what you have, you can build it to do what you want. Thus front wheel drive imports doing 10's or Saleen GT's winning their class in SCCA.

All in all the 350Z is a very fun car but at this point of its life it is too early to compare it power wise with the LS1's or Cobra's.

I guess I am in the mood to fight today.

After reading what you have to say, I dont think we have much to fight about. Honestly, even with a 400 hp M3, my head was Still turned when I read the stats of the new SVT cobra. No doubt, its a big head turner. If god forbid, I lost my car, Id seriously place the SVT cobra on my short list to look at! But an acquantance of mine had a '96 Cobra, and I gotta tell ya, sure, it makes great sounds, but it drives like a damn truck. No kidding. And this was before it got ITS too. Even aside from that, clunks, rattles, awful steering feel, etc, etc. I think alot of my Mustang knowledge comes from my first hand view of this. Even the seat leather was absolutely horrible. It was called leather, but it reminded me alot more of perforated black paper. Just awful.

Its these kinds of faults that I cant imagine a 350Z or any Japanese car of that ilk would possess.

Thats why Im thinking that, whenever it comes out, and you guys could give me a better idea of when that might be, the Z Turbo is probably going to be a real world beater and a world beater price. What Id imagine its going to have is, aside from Japanese make quality, hp in the area of 350 - 400 hp, price in the lo - mid $40s tops, and upgraded drivetrain, suspension, and braking systems. But of course, at about the time this comes out, the RX-8 will probably be doing its turbo thing, and not far behind, probably, will be the return of the turbocharged Supra!

It sounds like fun times are back doesnt it! And, I believe I read that, nice as teh SVT Cobra is, its the last of the platform, so there should be some very interesting things coming from there too, although God knows what Ford can do to top itself on this one!

Originally posted by boostm3


After reading what you have to say, I dont think we have much to fight about. Honestly, even with a 400 hp M3, my head was Still turned when I read the stats of the new SVT cobra. No doubt, its a big head turner. If god forbid, I lost my car, Id seriously place the SVT cobra on my short list to look at! But an acquantance of mine had a '96 Cobra, and I gotta tell ya, sure, it makes great sounds, but it drives like a damn truck. No kidding. And this was before it got ITS too. Even aside from that, clunks, rattles, awful steering feel, etc, etc. I think alot of my Mustang knowledge comes from my first hand view of this. Even the seat leather was absolutely horrible. It was called leather, but it reminded me alot more of perforated black paper. Just awful.

Its these kinds of faults that I cant imagine a 350Z or any Japanese car of that ilk would possess.

Thats why Im thinking that, whenever it comes out, and you guys could give me a better idea of when that might be, the Z Turbo is probably going to be a real world beater and a world beater price. What Id imagine its going to have is, aside from Japanese make quality, hp in the area of 350 - 400 hp, price in the lo - mid $40s tops, and upgraded drivetrain, suspension, and braking systems. But of course, at about the time this comes out, the RX-8 will probably be doing its turbo thing, and not far behind, probably, will be the return of the turbocharged Supra!

It sounds like fun times are back doesnt it! And, I believe I read that, nice as teh SVT Cobra is, its the last of the platform, so there should be some very interesting things coming from there too, although God knows what Ford can do to top itself on this one!

I think we do aggree on alot of stuff. But I dont think you can say Cobra's are made badily just because of the mid 90's models. Granted the power wasnt really there and the seats SUCK and of course stock it pilots like a yacht, I have a 96 cobra so I know that all of that is true. The only thing I could call you on is that neither my cobra or my gt have ever had a mechnical problem, gt is 70k and cobra 45k, and neither of them have any rattles or squeeks.

All I am saying is that I dont judge all German cars by the Porche 924 of the late 70's and you shouldnt judge Cobra's by the ones that sucked 8 years ago. In my mind Ford is definately heading in the right direction with their newest SVT products (I cant comment on the Focus). Both the Cobra and the Lightning have awesome power and nice interiors. The leather seats in the 03 Cobra for example are very nice. In my opinion as long as Ford keeps its eye on constantily improving the brand (SVT) I think that we could one day soon speek of the Cobra in the same breath as the M3 in terms of comfort and road feel. (No, it is not there yet)

I STRONGILY aggree this is a great time for car lovers of all types. Just to name a few: M3, M5, Z06 Vette, New Viper, 03 Cobra, New Supra, Skyline(finally), RX8, and of course the 350Z. All of those cars as well as some I didnt mention, 500hp Bentley anyone, are reason for every car nut to be smiling.

As for what ford is doing for the New Cobra the *rumor* is a 4.6 DOHC resleaved to a 5.0 DOHC (400hp N/A). Revised suspension geometry thanks to the new platform, the first since 1979, a navigation system and Formula One paddle shifters. Hopefully with all that and good build quality will make it a truly sought after product.

All I am saying is that I dont judge all German cars by the Porche 924 of the late 70's and you shouldnt judge Cobra's by the ones that sucked 8 years ago

Well, you have a point there. Ok, I will give the Cobras a new chance. Glad to hear theyve improved that awful cloth that they tried to pass off as 'leather', and that their handling is now good. If all this is true, plus its got a current 390 hp, rumored to be at least 15 hp more in reality, and, its aiming at a NA 400 hp in the near future, well, they very well may have THE peformance package to buy in the under $40K. Hell, it may be under $40K but it probably will be THE performance package to buy in the under $50K realm! Now thats saying something. OF course, if its true, then odds are neither you nor I will be able to get within 100 miles of one, and when we do, Dealer probably WILL be selling it for $50 grand! Not to be cynical or anything, but Im told its nigh impossible even now to get the current Cobra at anything near MSR.:bloated:

Hey, do you think in a couple years, the two hot 'affordable' tickets will be the new SVT Cobra vs the new 350Z twin turbo? Each under $45K? and maybe, each under $40K?! Wont that be a hoot?!

Geez, if that time really comes, I may have to think about trying to fine someone to buy my 400 hp M3....Everybody says youve got to strip off all the goodies and revert it back to stock. But Id never do that. I know there are folks out there would LOVE to be able to buy a 400 hp M3 in perfect condition, w Dinan Koni adjustable suspension, never tracked, book serviced, with mileage under 60K, at a price just slightly above blue book for a stock version.

If the market really pits those two models against each other at that price, it'll be really hard to stay on the sidelines, wont it...hmmm. And, you can bet it'll be such a hot market segment, that they wont be the only two in it either. You mention a new Supra and turbocharged RX-8, and Skyline, in the near future. Ive got to stop...Im drueling all over my keyboard! :eshooter:

Having owned BMW's, Audi's Maserati's and now the Chrylser 300m, which I just sold to purchase a 350z, IMHO you can't make any kind of comparison to North American cars in terms of handling for this price point.


I drove the Trans Am..and the Camaro SS. Very fast in a straight line. That's where the comparison ends. Neither of these cars deliver the same type of performance..........and you won't get there with add ons either.

The 300zx was a great car.........Was being the operative term. Nissan doesn't make them anymore.........just like Toyota stopped making the Supra.........Chrylser stopped with the 426 hemi.......things change.....my prediction is that this 350Z will be a new level of driving for people who can't afford a Boxter or an M3. Find another car at this price with these features.......I have tried.........and it ain't out there

Find another car at this price with these features.......I have tried.........and it ain't out there

But, for the mid $30s (track model), why couldnt I offer the SVT Cobra as the car found at this price with these features? In what category(s), backed by tests, does the cobra lose? certainly not acceleration; certainly not skidpad...etc..

Well according to Car & Driver the Stock Cobra out accelerated the 350; however the 350 was faster in the slalom and the skidpad rating was very close. I am not sure which model of the 350 C&D tested, but I am assuming it was the enthusiast since the skidpad performance is the same as what sport compact car magazine found when they tested the enthusiast. The Z also gets much better gas milage and looks alot better. You are also comparing 2 cars that have 100 horsepower difference. Give me a Z with twin Garrett ball bearing turbos or at least enough power to match the 390 of the Cobra and I feel pretty confident the Z would out perform it in every category.

I no that your logical reply would be that that would increase the cost of the car by about $7,000 for the turbos, but this is why people work very hard to buy the things they really want. Being that you drive a supercharged M3(incredible machine) you should know exactly what I am talking about.

just for point of reference.... I've dragged a Mustang Cobra and older 5.0 in my Z and came out on top.... not by much but even a cunt hair counts. I'd like to try it with another Cobra cause it seems like maybe the Cobra should've done a bit better.

With some performance mods the Z could do very well....

BUT, in reality the Z is not a drag car. it's a track car..... handling is great. I'll stick my neck out and say that in it's stock form it'd out handle a stock Mustang or any musclecar.

DJ V.
(suiting up the nomex flame suit now)

BUT, in reality the Z is not a drag car. it's a track car..... handling is great. I'll stick my neck out and say that in it's stock form it'd out handle a stock Mustang or any musclecar.

If youre talking about one of the new '03 SVT cobras with 390 blown hp, youd stick it out and get it cut off! That car 'll do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, and registers over .90gs on the skidpad! It all depends on what you mean by 'outhandle'... If you mean win a race with straights and curves, the cobra would kill you. If you mean a flat out drag, of course the cobra would kill you. If youre talking about a tiny, wound up autox course, maybe...

As ZV# so eloquently put it...
Originally posted by ZV3
honestly, who cares what a guy in a cheap dime-a-dozen Mustang or Crapmaro thinks about you if he *might* win a 0-60 race? I used to own a 300ZX and now have an M3, and those Camaro guys constantly want to race and I just nod and go about my business. If I had one of the nice, new 350 Z's I would not waste my time on those type of cars.
By the way a guy here at work just bought one, and it's very nice, much better looking in person but has a smallish interior. Anyway, if I was a Trans Am/Mustang owner I would not come to this forum and brag about beating a new Z by a tenth of a second or so. A V-8 against a six cylinder, and all you can manage to do is *barely* beat it? Shameful.
Imagine if the Japanese decide to make a performance V-8? 8 against 8 I would put my money on the Japanese to win by a large margin. American cars are simply unreliable crap. Hell, the new BMW M3 has only 10 horsepower less than the Vette. The M5? More horsepower than the regular Vette. Anyway, I would not waste my time racing those
American F-Bodies/Mustangs because what kind of bragging right is that?
"Hey Joe, I beat a Trans Am today!" I REALLY dislike those cars, no refinement at all. A 0-60 race is only less than 1% of the time we spend in our cars, the rest is DRIVING so for me to put up with American bad reliability, rattles and shakes, all that exhaust racket, bad interiors and plastics, and the dime-a-dozen depreciation and satisfaction of owning a cheap vehicle that everybody and my Grandma owns, well it's not worth it just to say "I beat that Z car by a tenth of a second, but I can't corner worth a damn!" Those American Iron boys need to get a clue, it's not about 0-60. Hell, I bought my M3 so I could cut through mountain passes
with the precision of a surgeon, not for 0-60 races which are hard on vehicles. They can keep that. Heck, if your a good driver you can make up for that couple tenths of a second against those guys anyway!!!

exactly, you all are talking about gay american f-bodies like camaro and mustang. Every day I drive on the street I must see about a 100 of them. They are a dime a dozen, nothing more. The Z will become somewhat popular in the future, but nothing like those american cars.

exactly, you all are talking about gay american f-bodies like camaro and mustang. Every day I drive on the street I must see about a 100 of them. They are a dime a dozen, nothing more. The Z will become somewhat popular in the future, but nothing like those american cars

When did an sVT Cobra become an 'F' body? Besides, you really should not equate this car to the others youre talking about. Ford really deserves some kudos for tuning out a 390 hp car with an admittedly beautifully advanced engine, now with roots blower, and its new IRS capable of over .90gs on the skidpad. This is NOT the same ol mustang, you know!

Look, I drive a supercharged '99 M3 the beauty of which I dont need to hype to anyone. And even still, this new SVT cobra has my head turned. I like the Z too, but the Only way Id ever consider it is if it becomes forced induced. 280 hp is nice and all, but after driving 400 around every day, well, I think you see the point.

Originally posted by tomlong
Well according to Car & Driver the Stock Cobra out accelerated the 350;

And the 2003 Cobra is running 12.6's in the quarter mile (http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/features/0207mmff_cobra/index.html), .90 on the skid pad. It'd take a 350Z no matter what the race.

I mean.........everything I've read says this car is alot more money...and I stand behind my earlier remarks..........for the price, you'd be hard pressed to find another car out there that can match it.

I mean.........everything I've read says this car is alot more money...and I stand behind my earlier remarks..........for the price, you'd be hard pressed to find another car out there that can match it.

Well, its NOT alot more money...thats why Im making such a big deal about it. Fact is, its the same price as the track version of the 350Z!!!

Several people have mentioned the skidpad rating in reference to handling. I wonder if that is really a valid metric at all. Doesn't a skidpad test simply measures the maximum possible lateral acceleration before the vehicle loses traction? That seems like a half-assed way of gauging a car's suspension and balance at best.

Also, some cornering methods like drifting presume losing traction.

:sun:

I just took another look at the SVT Cobra................I'm sure that 390 hp can rock.................been there........done that...........it still looks like just another Mustang to me.......and with the NISMO mods that will undoubtedly soon be here............my money is still on the 350Z

Originally posted by boostm3


Well, its NOT alot more money...thats why Im making such a big deal about it. Fact is, its the same price as the track version of the 350Z!!!

Why compare it to the track, all the Z's have the same motor and suspension, the only difference performance wise between a base and the track Z is the wheels and brakes. So really price is an issue, base 350 is $26k and Cobra is $33k. Seems like a big difference to me.

Plus, didn't Ford build those SUV's a while back that had those death tires on them and they knew all along??? Thats why I will never buy a Ford no matter what even if they start making good cars.

well the only thing i disappointed is nissan claim that 350z will be the fastest Z but as many people have say it not any faster than the last 300zx turbo (which im driving). I didnt have a change to drive the new Z but for its 0-60 in 5.5s my 300z do the same. I love the new look but the lights on it rear, the 2 lights on the bumber. hehehe my english is bad i know. hehe and what's up with 287hp?????? my 300z is 300hp, stock that is. And btw, 350z vs Cobra for me i pick the 350z for the look