M3 Opponents

What's the specs on the S4? Is it force induced?

would an s4 beat an M5 at drag/lap race?
Probably. It's not a better car though.

M5 is more luxurious but, the S4 is sportier

I disagree, the M5 is a great track car.

yah but, the S4 has power and handaling on its side

actually, the M3 and the S4 would be better and the S8 and M5 would be better too.

M5's nature is far sportier than the S4. S4 is about effortless pace, M5 requires some driver input. The M5 is a driver's car; the S4 isnt

Originally posted by lowridder11
the S8 and M5 would be better too.

Well.... Let's think about that; Is a A8 the same size as a 5 series? Is the pricetag on the A8 and the 5 series somewhat similar?

5 series?

Yes?

pricetags arn't the smae and we r talking about the M5 a S8

Please explain why it would be better to compare a M5 to a S8 and not a RS6?

U got me there. I forgot about the RS6! Stupid Me!

but still the Rs6 is sportier than the M5 and the M5 is more a luxury car and so is the S8. Although the M5 is pretty damn fast

Have either of you guys dirven an S4 or an M5? What would make the S4 not a drivers car. Would it be the omission of traction control? I own a 360hp S4 (without traction control) and have driven an M5. They are two totaly diffrent autos. My 35k car would dust the M5 on both the strip and especially on the track; and all this for 30k less. Also, there is no comparrison between the S8 and the M5. The S8 is a large luxury car that could be compared to the 740 and the M5 is a mid size sport sedan that could be compared to the Audi RS6, of which there is no real comparrison. The RS6 will leave the M5 choking in dust, AWD dust, that is.

But with AWD comes understeer as well...the M5 is nothing but hardcore RWD

Addition of a rear sway bar neutralizes the handeling. RWD=oversteer, especially when tracking out of a turn. Did you follow last seasons Speedvision GT series? The S4 had major advantages in standing start launches and powering out of turns. Where it fell short was in breaking because it is so heavy.

bcinla, i cant say ive driven an S4 but i have driven an M5... now we're not confusing speed with driving thrill.. going on what ive heard of the S4, and thats the best i have since i havent driven one, i hear the steering feel is poor (which is consistent with my experience with Audis) and the challenge of driving it fast simply isnt difficult enough, and that makes sense cos its a (comparatively) heavy AWD sedan. The M5 is also heavy, but let me assure you the steering is wonderful and that RWD chassis makes for a lot more driver involvement and thrill. Hence a driver's car. Not so the S4. A fine machine, but not a driver's car

i have drivin in a S4 but never in an M5 or drivin and M5

The RS6 will leave the M5 choking in dust, AWD dust, that is.
BTW, while the RS6 is stonking fast the same i said about the S4 applies, only even more so. Effortless speed, no driver involvement

yah, the car has to be fun to drive. Has to have tight gears for me. I drove and audi A4 3.0L and it didn't even have gears! It was steptronic or something. If it is not manual it is no fun. And there should be effort put into it not just pressing the accelorater

Well, many race cars have a similar system as well, like the Indy Cars, JGTC cars, etc.

yah, but i'm talking about street cars

The E46 M3 will smoke a S4, camaro SS, and will hold its own against the NSX any day. Granted the Audi's on the circuit are exceptional machines, but so are the Camaros, Vettes, BMWs and Porsches. Your talking about the difference for example a camaro Z28 cost what $25,000 and the ones they race on TV have about $500,000 into them. I could put $500,000 into a Cavilier and race with them. You cannot base who would win a race between stock production cars by who wins on the circuit.

I wish I had raised that point a long time ago---could have saved a lot of my hot air. You are totally right. You can't rate stock performance on the basis of what the race car versions do. Its about F*&$en time someone straightened out these knuckleheads about the M3. The S4 is catching up--but it isn't out performing the M3. I hate to point to car magazines---but I did read this months Automobile Magazine---and they sure state clear as night and day--that they don't think the car is as fast as it should have been made. They even make it clear that the handling has tremendously improved----but the power isn't there to match. Thats what makes the M3---an M3. Power, handling, luxury, sport car prowess. Thats a tough combo to get in any car---and the S4 is missing just a couple of those aspects. Keep trying though S4 fans----its still a piece of cake for us DOHC guys to blow right by ya and carve corners. (I should say, us non-stock DOHC guys :)

You're exatcly right. Me and my dad beat an S4 in his E36 M3 which is tuned to about 300+ hp, and we didn't really have a hard time beating it. not saying that the S4 isn't a bad ass mamajama because it is, i love audi. My uncle has an A8 and i love that car.

Have either of you guys dirven an S4 or an M5? What would make the S4 not a drivers car. Would it be the omission of traction control? I own a 360hp S4 (without traction control) and have driven an M5. They are two totaly diffrent autos. My 35k car would dust the M5 on both the strip and especially on the track; and all this for 30k less. Also, there is no comparrison between the S8 and the M5. The S8 is a large luxury car that could be compared to the 740 and the M5 is a mid size sport sedan that could be compared to the Audi RS6, of which there is no real comparrison. The RS6 will leave the M5 choking in dust, AWD dust, that is.

Not to be mean or anything, but you only wish could could dream of keeping up with the M5. One of my friends just traded his 540 for an M5 and we have put some pretty nice Porsches to shame. The Audi S4 is a nice car, but can not even be considered the same class as an M5.

Audi fanatics who think their "S" cars are in the same league as BMW's "M" cars are severely deluded. The cars just arent built for the same thing, its as simple as that

i see some simularities though.

There's really only one: straight line speed. Everything else is of completely different character

Originally posted by robslob
I just would like to say----that yes your cars are expensive---because they are of high quality------but I as ford owner and Cobra owner/lover------will say-----that our aftermarket allows us to build a car that can eat you up------and out handle you-----SVT may not want to put a car off the floor that can do so-----but thats not to bite the nose of of our aftermarket . . . anyone that does question this remark-------go to www.kennybrown.com--------because he has gotten every SVT Cobra within range of the world's top exotic cars-------and most importantly-----for a reasonable price--------not for 30k-60k prices that other non ford competitor tuners do . . . So I finish by saying AMG puts out what can be interpreted as a fully aftermarket car-----but does charge accordingly so for it------but us Ford aftermarket guys know-----we can take you out with our superior tuning equipment.

Obviously you are just a Ford fanatic and would stand behind any lemon that company builds. If BMW wanted to out-power anything else on the market they would just inserted the BMW V8, with more than 400 hp.

And another thing, anyone who thinks that BMWs are too expensive, well that is not BMW's fault, that is yours for not being good enough to afford one, no?

And another thing, anyone who thinks that BMWs are too expensive, well that is not BMW's fault, that is yours for not being good enough to afford one, no?

Kinda Harsh, but pretty much true

I applaud you for picking the most general response I've ever heard. Yea you are so right---" I am a Ford fanatic". But for good reason. Again you allude to the lemons from Ford----but I clearly spoke of the tuning and the new cobra. I really can't help individuals like yourself understand my clear points---when you can't even follow along with your finger on a response of mine that attacked and defended specific points. Big whoop about the BMW V8. There are aftermarket 4.6L DOHC making almost 600hp N/A. BMW is starting to do the same thing Ford is doing---supercharging its top dogs. You obviously don't know much about mustang technology---therefore that makes you very unqualified to put down the stangs ultimate performance. Any Cobra with the correct aftermarket parts can punish any BMW that doesn't wear a GTR badge. Oh---and I thought I should mention---the next new M3 & M5 will be supercharged---as well as BMWs new super sports car---whatever the hell they want to call it---will also be supercharged. I guess BMW found out what Ford knew long in advanced---that a supercharged engine--makes great power---and is more affordable in production--and just as reliable as a N/A engine. I don't even know why I bother with you----because I can tell you know very little other than the stock capabilities of cars--and even more so--no less about suspension technology.

Originally posted by vortech
I applaud you for picking the most general response I've ever heard. Yea you are so right---" I am a Ford fanatic". But for good reason. Again you allude to the lemons from Ford----but I clearly spoke of the tuning and the new cobra. I really can't help individuals like yourself understand my clear points---when you can't even follow along with your finger on a response of mine that attacked and defended specific points. Big whoop about the BMW V8. There are aftermarket 4.6L DOHC making almost 600hp N/A. BMW is starting to do the same thing Ford is doing---supercharging its top dogs. You obviously don't know much about mustang technology---therefore that makes you very unqualified to put down the stangs ultimate performance. Any Cobra with the correct aftermarket parts can punish any BMW that doesn't wear a GTR badge. Oh---and I thought I should mention---the next new M3 & M5 will be supercharged---as well as BMWs new super sports car---whatever the hell they want to call it---will also be supercharged. I guess BMW found out what Ford knew long in advanced---that a supercharged engine--makes great power---and is more affordable in production--and just as reliable as a N/A engine. I don't even know why I bother with you----because I can tell you know very little other than the stock capabilities of cars--and even more so--no less about suspension technology.


Ya if you modded a Cobra it could beat any BMW but thats not fair if you mod one you should mod the other. Lets see a modded 4.6 Cobra beat a modded 4.9 Z8. Anyways lets get back on subject we were talking about the M3 yes a Cobra would own a M3 so:rolleyes: its still a ford:hehehe: j/k. How do you guys think the M3 will fair against some of the new imports like the STI or EVO8?

the point was not just to say---yea you can a cobra and it will outperform an M3---the point was clearly presented--that we are talking about simple engine mods to the current cobra--as well as suspension work totallying about $4K. So don't give me this bullshit about the Z28 example. Cause no fricken Z28 comes with a blower----an 03 Cobra does. Start reading with your finger---and before you open your trap---check to see if I'm talking about a blown 03 cobra or a N/A cobra. Because it makes a hell of a difference--when you make a rebuttal. :bloated:

You can have all your Kenny Brown shit and your vortech blower. The truth of the matter is that Dinan can do the same shit to my beemer and you would not stand a chance V-8 against V-8. And in regards to suspension I could 4k in mine and have just as good of handling as your piece of crap Ford.

Vortech, you're an Idiot

you may think so----but the handling wouldn't exceed it. It would be an easy dead heat. Mustangs can handle just as well as any sports car out there. Not stock wise, thats for sure. Its just a matter of the right aftermarket equipment going into the car--more importantly suspension. The problem with you guys---and its so apparent with some of the remarks----is that you all have this 'negative prejudice' towards cars made by Ford. You think because its a BMW, AMG Benz, Audi, etc. and carries such a high car value---that no other car out there can match up. The mustang is sports car---and is very bit capable of doing what I said. You guys aren't knowledgable enough to know what mustang technology is available. You ever hear of the Dodge Viper. Another American car company that built a car with monster performance---you think that SVT can't build a super-tuner??? lol They're doing it right now with the GT40. You don't know what you're saying---because the mustang has a monster aftermarket and it is very affordable. I've looked at what Rhennquist, Brabus, Dinan, etc. have to offer and I'm not putting it down at all. But bottom line---their aftermarket work---costs a fortune--and its a rip off. I say rip off---because their mods don't even get any vehicle---to monster levels of performance. They get great performance----but they are so exclusive --- that no other companies invest the time to explore how those cars can be improved. Thsi is fact here in the US. In Europe--its a different story--with the number of tuning shops that take care of that. But I think the idiot tag should be worn proudly on your license---because you are talking out of your ass. You don't know what suspension weaknesses the cobra or GT have---therefore---how do you think you can say that Dinan, etc.---can tune a car to outperform a 'tuned' stang. I know for a fact---that, thats total BS. Maybe one day we'll see a Kenny Brown Cobra run straightline and through a slalom with the other car tuners----but I don't think it will ever happen. Anyone who has a tuned mustang----knows about Kenny Brown---and would rightlfully agree. Just because an M5 costs $70K----don't think that it can easily outperform a $35K Cobra with a blower. Because the fact of the matter is---than 03 Cobra comes with monster performance---and a whole new suspension------leaves plenty of car owners---wondering what the fuck they paid so much money for. You guys see your cute tuner names---and don't even know how much their aftermarket parts increase handling, lateral grip, caster/camber or lateral grip for that matter. These are all variable that affect handling and suspension feel. AMG is a serious in house tuner----and they've shown it through the stock Benz---but the other tuners----definetely have not shown that they can make your car feel like its gone from night and day. Sadly, I have to say---that the last 2 posts that were made---were by a couple of morons---who problem don't even know how to change their own oil or drive stick.

http://www.dinanbmw.com/default.htm
Here's a major car mag that gave hime press on his famed S2-M5. Straightine power increase with the addition of a blower---and the grip on the car only went from 0.83 - 0.87---and read what a rediculous price he charged for everything he did. Also, notice how conveniently he didn't have a stock M5 to test his tuned M5 against. Didn't even run his M5 through a slalom. Typical tuner bullshit. I bet he didn't have a stock M5---because he charges so much---and the performance isn't so significantly different. I'm not surprised that this kind of bullshit was exposed. Brabus has conveniently done the same when coming down to test a stock mercedes vs. his tuned Benz. And of course----their times and performance numbers are all merely claims.

plenty of editions of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords, 5.0 Magazine, and Mustang Weekly----and the 03 Cobras performance numbers on stock equipment and aftermarket equipemnt-----ARE WELL DOCUMENTED. Unlike the other bullshit tuners who won't dare run comparison tests---but will gladly submit the bill for their work. :biggrin2:

Hey VORTECH,

If my cars interior was made of plastic crap like yours it would be around the same price. Prejudice toward Ford is correct. I have owned several Fords and GMs and they sucked just like the crap Ford and GM is still making. I have many friends that own mustangs(Steeda, Kenny Brown, SVT) and they will even admit that my car is built much better than theirs. Lets just take a cobra against an M5 for example because they are similar in horspower the M5 would perform as well if not better than the Cobra. Yes it would cost a lot more for an M5, but that is because it has four(not two) real leather seats(not plastic). The quality of the M5 in regards to materials and safety are off the scale compared to the Fords. BMW like other European car manufacturers take pride in their work and add alot of neat little touches which make the cars more enjoyable to own. And not any schmuck or redneck with $30,000 can own one. When I blow past you because you are waiting for a tow truck(like a couple new thunderbirds I have seen lately) you will than understand what our point is. Until than you may want to go hangout in the Mustang Forum with the other uneducated rednecks. By the way my stepmother drives a 2001 Mustang GT and granted it is fun to drive, but the cars build quality and performance are not even close to my BMW.

I just would like to say FUCKYOU. You sound extremely bigoted and ultra prejudice. Anyone can go into any forum--regardless of what they own. So FUCKYOU again for those BS remarks. Right, every mustang owner is a redneck. You want to argue a point---stick to the point. But I never spoke of the interior in an M5 vs. the Ford--and as far as your Ford problems----you never spoke of which models------and lastly all I spoke of was a tuned cobra or GT. You obviously had to respond the way you did----because you have limited intelligence on cars---as I mentioned earlier----and you exposed yourself with a typical response that most 'no nothings about cars' use. No shit the M5 has a nicer interior----I don't remember arguing anything about that. But you know what bro----I'm not arguing that point anymore----because its a waste trying to enlighten an uneducated racist like yourself.

Keep the discussion to the cars ASSHOLE---not the stereotyped drivers. And yes, I'm bringing myself down to your level---so you don't have to follow along with your finger anymore.

:silly2:

Man people can we get off the whole modded thing:o every car has potential. "With money anything is possible". I recently got a ride in a 2000 cobra it was stock as far as I know and even though im a diehard european car fan I have to say I was impressed although I think the cobra needs to be a little smaller but maybe it was just me. So anyways comparing a modded car vs modded car is pointless. tomlong and AC Schnitzer M3 shame on you two (slaps them both on the hand) losing your temper like that over something so silly:rolleyes: i would expect this from a newbe but not from you two:mad:

Back to my earler question how do you think the M3 will do against the evo or sti

Kenny Brown sucks his supercharges are POS's. And the whopty freakin do, the cobra comes with a supercharger.:rolleyes: The stock supercharger sucks too, 4lbs of boost, whooo don't get too much! With the money I save from buying a Z28 or SS I can buy a quality supercharger from Whipple and stomp the shit out of any mustang. Hell my cousin works at a Ford dealership and drives mustangs daily. He says the engine and superchargers are crap. Thats why he drive a Z28. Oh well BMW's are still better than both of them. With the 4.8sec 0-60 of the M3 you could add a turbo to that and damn your cobra would be getting eaten for breakfast, lunch and dinner. And why is it taht Ford waited till after GM put a pause on the Camaro to add some power. I mean the Z28 could run circles around the Cobra before. I guess Ford's just scared.

the 03 in stock form has clipped off a 4.7 in 0-60 and a 12.7 - 12.8 in 1/4. Don't know what you're talkin about son. And thats in total stock with a choked intake and exhaust system. with opened up intake & exhaust + chip----thats over 500rwhp----already been tested, already been done. Oh and by the way---oh yee of massive stupidity. An Eaton blower is not crap. You obviously don't know about the torque benefits of a Roots blower---I'm not going to explain it----because u won't retain it anyway. Stock is 8psi not 4psi. Get it right. Lastly, the Eaton M112 roots----which the 03 carries-----is 15psi capable. You thats BS---email Eaton on their webpage---they are quick to respond and will be quick to confirm that. The only negative thing about the M112----is that the bulk of its power maxes out at about 5000rpm----then starts to tail off, unlike a centrifugal blower that makes power to redline. You don't know these things----because you are ignorant and like to run your mouth off---and probably are simply a young child who dreams of the day when he can take out a permit to drive. Finally, if we see a return of the Camaro----which hopefully will----since the public does not embrace the vehicle (as its low sales have really shown) it will most definetely have a blower itself----because Chevy likes to copycat. But by then ----- the Cobras will be in the 600hp range. Son--you have a lot to learn----but at the risk of making you more intelligent---I'll stop educating you. Oh yea---when is the 2003 & 2004 camaro coming out? Oh thats right, what camaro?

Vortech, youre a true idiot, oh fo sho a cobra can stomp on an M3, sure if the M3 is stock and the stang has about 12 grand into it, you put that 12 into an M3 and you could kiss your sorry ass cobra good bye. Ford cars a junk basically deal w/ it. TexasF355F1 you're a smart man, nicely put w/ the M3 comment

I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong and that yes I do run my mouth sometimes, and occasionally get proven wrong; case and point. But as for you to say that I'm waiting for my permit and that I couldn't retain any more info is absurd. I'm 21 if you happened to look at my profile. I did do a little research and althought I couldn't find any posted 1/4 mile times or 0-60 for the 2003 cobra I did find on Fords website that it says the supercharger has 8psi maximum. So im not sure about the 15psi but will take your word on it, however, if you push the charger to this limit it may break. I dont know where you have seen chevy copycatting. Chevy wont put a supercharger on their engines i dont think b/c they try to get the most of the engine without it. And i didn't say anything about an '03 Camaro/Firebird, that is why i said the z28 could run circles around the cobra before. Anyways, I really should make sure i have my facts straight before saying something and it was stupid on my part b/c it made me look like i dont know anything about cars, which i do since ive been into them since i was 3. I will admit to you though that i have no real problem with mustangs and happen to find the new cobra a very very gorgous car and i love the sound of all v8 stangs. Hopefully things are now cleared up and we can get along like two civilized mature adults.

Thanks AC, but I was wrong on several parts and I had to admit that.

Vortech,

You keep thinking that nobody in this Forum knows much about cars. Did you install the Blower yourself? I could talk blowers all day long with you since I installed 2 whipples on my 28 foot awesome Cats twin 502's.
I have built several small and big block motors both ford and chevy in my garage and anything I cant figure out I will gladly pay a proffesional to do. The thing you forget is that any idoit can work on a ford; whereas you have to know your shit to work on a european car. You have made several ties to ignorance well your ignorance has shown through time and time again just by trying to prove your point. I am sorry if your feelings got hurt when I said the Ford Cobra sucks and you should have bought a quality car. Racist you say! How the fuck would you know? UNEDUCATED sorry I am not the one driving the FORD!

My point has been proven---everything I have said is true---and I didn't say you needed $12K of suspension work--that was about $4K. You don't know what you're talking about. You don't know shit about a cobra---and if you think a europena car and engine is that much different than an american one----well---you are a buffoon and someone who is simply blowing smoke on the board. I don't need to know how to install a blower---to know the delicate mechanical works of one. Understanding the concept of how one works is totally different than understanding how to install one-----so I really don't know how you think that makes you even more knowledgable. Email Eaton---my facts can be corroborated. I don't stress points that I can't back up. Like I said----plenty of mustang magazines have done all the aftermarket part swaps---and thats where my points gain their basic foundation. And if you think those swaps were all bullshit----then we can't go further with this--until you get your head out of your Ass.

good to see this post progress in a clean, sophisticated manner.

:rolleyes:


btw, IMO, to compare a cobra and M3 is ludicrous. power is one thing. handling and finesse is quite another. the Cobra cant touch the M3 in that (most important) dimension

Vortech, you are a fanatic like you said. David Duke is a fanatic too, he is not qualified to give advice, and neither are you. You are biggot, do not deny it. You hate anything on the road that does not have the blue oval badge on it. How typical. If you were not insecure of your cars performance you would not be looking so closely at other cars' perfomance numbers. I know nothing about racing modifications? What you know, you learned from magazines, all you do is look at numbers on paper. I actually worked on a 91 GT, installing Griggs and few other mods. I know the strengths and weakneses of this car, especially the weakness of the stock suspension. To get a Mustang to handle like an M3 you have to tighten the suspension so hard that you can not drive it on the street. Griggs put comparisons of their car to stock Ferraris, even though their car has racing tires, that is an unfair comparison. You have some nerve coming here and comparing your modified V8 against a stock 6 cylinder. Why don't you go to the Corvette forum so the guys there can laugh at you?

wow thank you ringo, what a genious

Why don't you go to the Corvette forum so the guys there can laugh at you?
LOL:hehe:

OWNED :hehehe:

what are you talking about? the inline 6 in the M3 makes as much power as the non-blown DOHC. Not a fair comparison? Its good enough to put into a $50K bimmer---but it can't be offered for comparison on V8. Now thats silly. And you have the nerve to compare a Griggs suspension on a foxbody---as if it were the same on SN95 platform. Thats one of the stupidest comparisons anyone can make when the foxbody and SN95 have different road manners even with that kind of suspension. Oh by the way----griggs suspension is so stiff since its tailored more to drag racing, not like everyday liveability like a Kenny Brown or Maximum Motorsports setup. How can you even think that a drag race suspension is going to be comfortable like the two latter suspensions are. You claim to have installed a Griggs----but I really doubt it. What you said----is simply BS. But these other guys won't know the difference--since they are as clueless as you. What does discussing one cars suspension have to do with insecurity? You may think you know what you are talking about----but those 'suspension remarks' clearly showed that you my friend are the magazine racer. Any knowledgable stang suspension installer would agree with me. You won't because you aren't part of that brass.

I am not sure if this has been mentioned somewhere in the 6894 pages of this thread, but how about the Nissan 350Z? :D

In the Best Motoring Vol. 6 video, Japanese professional race car drivers raced an M3, Boxter (non-S), S2000, and 350Z on a track. All cars were stock.

The Z got 1st place, M3 second, and S2000 3rd.

Yeah we mmissed that one, I heard that Z car has a graphite drive shaft.

Granted, im not a fan of Japanese cars at all, with exception of the NSX, its ok. The Z however impresses me. I really think the overall design, and power are great. I still would never buy one. I'd find my money be better spent buying a German quality car, the M3 to be exact.
Vortech, you are biased. The reason that the M3 and Cobra should have no business competing is that they are in a totally different class. I think that even if someones opinion was 100% factual you would still fight for your blue oval b/c to you that is the best car in the world. I am a GM fan but I as well as you do, have to admit that the quality of American cars suck in comparison with anything from overseas.

Originally posted by TexasF355F1
Granted, im not a fan of Japanese cars at all, with exception of the NSX, its ok. The Z however impresses me. I really think the overall design, and power are great. I still would never buy one. I'd find my money be better spent buying a German quality car, the M3 to be exact.


A strong statement.
I do not see how you can say that your money is better spent buying a "German" quality car over a Japanese one. Many believe that Japanese build amazing quality automobiles, and that is not unfounded.
....especially the 350Z. I was originally planning to purchase an M3, but changed my mind and bought a 350Z instead for 20 grand less. I do not see at all how you can better spend $37,000 on a German car over a 350Z. Please enlighten me.

Here is what Consumer Reports's research shows -
"American and European brands in 2002 had 21 problems per 100 vehicles, while the Asian brands had just 12 problems per vehicle; Toyota led them all with 10 problems per vehicle."