Prius--my view

If you check my original posts, I had a 2004 with the #9 package. I was so disappointed in the mileage/performance that I sold it back to the dealer. I now drive a SAAB and get lessmileage but not that much less when considering how good a car it is to drive. I am not against a Prius. I just think it is advertised falsely and bought too politically.

Oh man... how much did you sell it for? I could have bought it if you lived close to me: St. Louis

If you check my original posts, I had a 2004 with the #9 package. I was so disappointed in the mileage/performance that I sold it back to the dealer. I now drive a SAAB and get lessmileage but not that much less when considering how good a car it is to drive. I am not against a Prius. I just think it is advertised falsely and bought too politically.



I must say you are one strange bird, mauleskyrocket

Contradictive to say least.

You never stop to amaze me.

First considering your radical right wing observations, I was surprised you would choose to drive Prius at all. But you do. OK, it didn't perform as promised, that's fine also.

But now, Saab ????

Another liberal choice in cars to say as liberal as it can get in cars.

Particularity considering its origin country.

OK, is your real name Hyde, Mr.Hide? :)

That would be only sufficient scientific explanation to this contradictive paradox of your choices ;)

Is it good old (last true Saab) divine Hatch 9-3 or 9-3 New Sport Sedan?

http://www.kjenkins49.fsnet.co.uk/jek13.jpg

Old style convertible that Kurt Wallander might drive.

Old style convertible that Kurt Wallander might drive.

Yes but what model.

Early 900?

Kurt Wallander 900.

Should have sold the prius to meeee >_<

Should have sold the prius to meeee >_<

Provided he actually owned one :)

He never sent us any requested picture of his Prius.

Not to mention, my concrete question about what 900 is he driving is
also left in silence. Owner of 900 Hatch should know what vintage is
his 900. (Saab is very concrete about models, after all)

Someone who fly airplane, should know more about company that makes both.

Volken my distrustful friend. If you know SAABs' then you certainly should know what a Kurt Wallander model 900 convertible looks like! Volken, maybe your the one who needs the high top shoes.

Volken my distrustful friend. If you know SAABs' then you certainly should know what a Kurt Wallander model 900 convertible looks like! Volken, maybe your the one who needs the high top shoes.


Mauleskyrocket,

Apparently there was a problem with HTML code because my smile :)was not posted before first comment and this is what gave you wrong impression about nature of my comment.

Funny, entire post misunderstood just in mercy of invisible smile J

Silver or Brownish color of your Saab?

Strangely I'm not familiar with this phrase : high top shoes

What does it mean?

What does Kurt Wallander mean?

I had to take a long auto trip this weekend. About six hundred miles all by motorway. Interstingly, and fitting my first post here, of the many Prius's I saw on the motorway, ALL were driving in the slow lane. In my mind this evidenced that they were aware that stressing the car in the least by accelerating was going to adversely affect their economy. Of course with my Kurt Wallander SAAB I just left them in my dust.

What does Kurt Wallander mean?

I think some sort of fiction character, detective of some sort?

Actor that plays some detective?


Do you at least know production year of your 900?

1979-1980 4 Cyl. post models or Turbo?

Later models of 900?

What generation of 900 do you actually own?

Concrete please.

The SAAB is a 9/3 cvtbl. I am proud of you solving the little riddle Volken. Indeed Kurt Wallander is the detective in a series of excellent books by Swedish author Henning Mankell. Mankell lives in Sweden and Mozambique and is one of the great current authors. Wallender, of course, drives a Peugot and therefore sort of screws up the riddle a bit.

The SAAB is a 9/3 cvtbl. I am proud of you solving the little riddle Volken. Indeed Kurt Wallander is the detective in a series of excellent books by Swedish author Henning Mankell. Mankell lives in Sweden and Mozambique and is one of the great current authors. Wallender, of course, drives a Peugot and therefore sort of screws up the riddle a bit.

So now it is no longer 900 as you said earlier, but 9-3 convertible?
What engine?

Is it last production 9-3 hatch?

last production 9-3 cnvt. I have had many and prefer this old model to the new. The new has a GM engine and basically a GM driveline. Probably a great car but I like the old SAABs.

last production 9-3 cnvt. I have had many and prefer this old model to the new. The new has a GM engine and basically a GM driveline. Probably a great car but I like the old SAABs.


You should read more details about latest Saab before making these comments, because they are all wrong. Saab is main dedicated plant for all Turbo engines within GM. It is 100% all made by Saab !

This is strategic decision brought by GM for second year by now.

New drive platform is called Epsilon and it is combined GM/Saab/Opel research.

Although to me old 900 and 9-3 hatch models are timeless expression of timeless classic expression and look more original to more confection new sedan look,...there is no getting away that latest 9-3 Sport Sedan is far more advanced particularly with drive-train then old 9-3.

After all, quirky old 9-3 drive was reason why this model divided entire world press in two sides : One hated its guts, other loved the same

You should look at Saab forum, beacuse this is well covered.

Agree that new epsilon better but the old one is what I like--I even like the cowl shake!

Agree that new epsilon better but the old one is what I like--I even like the cowl shake!


Fine. No more OT.

This is Prius forum after all :)

Mauleskyrocket, could you at least post some pictures of your Prius?

I would really like to see the same, it was after all car that was driving you well.

I hope I do not anger because it is not my purpose. Here are facts re my car:
1) The mileage figures are nonsense. If you use the air (90F) and if you do not become a road hazard---you get about 38 mpg.
2) You only get the advertised mileage if you use no air --stay under 60--and accelerate so slowly that the CVT hits its highpoint very early and you are a road hazard.
3) With an 11 gallon tank--aside from fuel cost--your range is not as good as a Lexus with a big tank and a 22mpg cruise.
4) A VW TDI is definitely better if you want good mileage with normal driving.
5) The fuel consumption readout drives one crazy.
6) People with Kerry stickers think you are like them.
Well I own one---but!

I hope I do not anger because it is not my purpose. Here are facts re my car:



Any particular reason for re-posting again something you wrote long ago?

Please read again my last post and respond in rational sense with applied and appropriate reply.

Thanks.

I posted it because it is true. The car is falsely advertized re mpg. Potential buyers should know that. As to your agenda who knows---and who cares.

No, what you posted isn't true. Firstly, even though I repeatedly asked what your tire pressure/engine oil level was you've failed to list what they were. They will *note dramatically! change the output of your mpg. MANY MANY people have been getting EPA values and if you look on the site www.greenhybrid.com you can see that the average for the 2nd generation Prius is over 48 mpg. And definately NO you don't have to accelerate increadibly slow and turn off the A/C. Jason, the site owner averaged 47.2 mpg and i know for a fact that he uses air conditioning. krousb has even gotten more than 80 mpg and over 900 miles on ONE WHOLE TANK. So don't just assume that your ONE Prius, which you probably did not set the tire pressure/oil level to the right values, represents the whole of all Prius. Plus, the car does not "advertise" the mpg as a representation for all drivers. They clearly state that it was achieved with EPA's standards and that owner's MPG will vary. During their(EPA) tests, the Prius' engine was off half the time. You also don't tell us what climate you live in and what kind of terrain you have to commute through. Obviously if you live in mountainous or hilly areas, your MPG will decrease. But this is true for ANY car! Most people get 48 mpg. And although that might not be the same value as the EPA's value, that's still a considerable amount! PLUS!!! what car have you known to actually GET an average that is the actual EPA number? Hardly any cars will do that. And a VW TDI? They set off tons more NOx and SO2 and you wont be achieving great MPG if you do stop and go driving AT ALL since diesel works better the other way. Plus you only get 90 HP from a Jetta TDI and 125 lbs of torque. Way much slower than a Prius IF you ever EVER needed that much power. It seems to me that you purchased the Prius without doing much research on your part...if you actually DID purchase one.

Sorry. Your wrong. Prius is the cause of EPA starting a program to change their testing. See WSJ. The Prius does not get anywhere near the advertised (yes advertised) mileage in real driving. But then driving one is a Kerry thing!

It's clear that you did not take the time to actually read my last post. An average of 71 people on www.greenhybrid.com who own the 2004 Prius equals over 48 mpg. Just because you achieved sub 40 mpg doesnt mean the Prius does not get anywhere near the advertised mileage in real driving. I will say this once more. YOUR PRIUS DOES NOT REPRESENT ALL PRIUS. Especially, ESPECIALLY, since you neglected to check the tire pressure and engine oil level. It seems to me that you will say anything to defame the Prius because of your negligence to actually achieve mpg.

comprendez vous? The EPA is REDOING it's system because of the inaccurate window sticker on a Prius. My SAAB says 32 on highway but gets 34! I am not knocking the Prius. But after owning one, I still maintain it is deceptively advertised. My TDI VW did just as well---with more power and running air and going 80 etc. I mean it when I say Kerry types buy this car under a misguided impression that they are saving the planet. That is their freedom and I applaud their motive. Just don't tell me what a great car it is. As for a bunch of owners claiming high mileage---ya and I bet their wives look like Frederique Van Der Wall as well.

I KNOW the EPA is REDOING their system. BUT that doesnt mean people ARE NOT achieving EPA values. Do you even see advertisements of Prius? They're not on TV! And the WINDOW STICKER? That's just required by the EPA to put it on the Prius. IT ALWAYS SAYS YOUR MILEAGE WILL VARY. It is NOT deceptively advertised because they plainly tell you that you most likely wont get 55 mpg. It is also NOT a misguided impression that they are saving the planet. I have a great article in Newsweek that fully describes the problem. As for owner claiming high mileage? They take both the on board MPG and they ALSO calculate the MPG when they fill up. THEN they choose the LOWEST one. You maintain that the Prius is deceptively advertised even though you didn't take precautions to ever get good fuel economy. TOO MUCH ENGINE OIL WILL DECREASE THE PRIUS'S MPG CONSIDERABLY. If your tires arent inflated to a certain level either, you'll lose even more mpg. In essence you could have been getting 45+ mpg if you actually researched a little bit more. The dealer is incorrect most of the time and doesnt fill the engine right or inflate the tires correctly.

By the way.. I want to make an edit on page two. I meant 3.9 L

We can agree on one point. Most dealers know nothing. I did keep my tire inflation on the high side. My prior car had been a TDI and that got 50 mpg on the highway with no fuss or mental bother as to ho I drove. The Prius not only gies far less mileage than promoted but also is a lousy driving experience. Unless, as I said, your motive is to fit in with the Kerry boys. I am curious re oil---are you suggesting one keep the oil lower than the indicated "full" on the stick?

I have participated on countless forums to discuss hybrids over the past four years. Today, I joined another... this one.

With over 80,000 miles of Prius driving experience in the hostile climate of Minnesota under all imaginable driving & traffic conditions, I have an overwhelming amount of data supporting my endorsement in the full hybrid design Toyota has created (called "HSD").

MPG claims are mostly attempts to mislead. Simply make the person present the actual data in detail. That always clarifies the issue. In the cases where traditional cars are reported to achieve impressive efficiency, you will often find that the data is highway-only in nature. So what they are telling you is true; however, they don't tell you that MPG is considerably lower when they slow down. City & Suburb driving is typically quite disappointing for those same vehicles. That is not the case with a hybrid using HSD, where MPG climbs when you slow down.

EMISSIONS are almost always totally ignored in traditional verses hybrid debates. There simply is no contest. A hybrid that delivers both great efficiency and great emissions is what the anti-hybrid people fear most, and that's exactly what the HSD system does. Prius, for example, delivers a real-world mixed-driving average of about 49 MPG and an emission rating of AT-PZEV. Just say, "Show Me The Data!" The traditional vehicles just plain cannot compete with that, especially if it uses diesel.

TRANSMISSION is another argument problem. Those against hybrids often use data from manual transmission vehicles, which is highly deceptive. Since 90 percent of the market in the United States prefers a transmission that doesn't require shifting, forcing them to switch to one that does require it is just plain wrong. But they know quite well that automatic transmissions don't get anywhere near as good MPG. Fortunately, the full hybrids use a CVT, which doesn't require shifting yet it delivers even better efficiency.

COMPLEXITY is another point which carries no meaning. A full hybrid eliminates many components found in a traditional vehicle. To further simplify the design, the transmission is always engaged, no changing of contact surfaces ever. As yet another benefit, the motors are brushless, so no replacement is ever needed.

BATTERY life is quickly becoming something those wanting hybrids to fail a topic to avoid. Real-World data is beginning to confirm the lab test results. It shows that capacity is diminished somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles. After that, you take a MPG hit since capacity is reduced. That's it! Acceleration isn't even affected, because there's more than enough capacity still remaining for that and most of the time a full hybrid doesn't even use the battery-pack when accelerating anyway (the electricity is generated on-the-fly by the engine instead) Anywho, Toyota is now providing a 180,000 mile quote whenever people ask about battery-pack expectations.

PRICE is key to many discussions. What isn't is the fact that neither mass-production nor third-party supplier has begun. Without that, real comparisons cannot be made fairly. Production costs will obviously drop once that begins; it is a well documented fact in economics... especially in the automotive industry. So always look at the long-term outcome, not what is happening at the current moment.

OTHER factors that affect efficiency are commonly not addressed at all. Tire-Pressure makes a huge difference; soft tires hurt efficiency. Another factor is overfill of engine oil, too much causes an internal hindrance. Still another is the reality that winter-formula fuel holds less energy, so MPG will naturally be less. Yet another is that cold are is more dense, which causes greater resistance. And of course, break-in is often forgotten; a new vehicle will always report lower MPG than one that has a minimum of 10,000 miles on it.

In summary, I don't fall for the message posts that don't acknowledge all of the criteria I just mentioned. Because if they don't, they are not being objective.

JOHN
http://john1701a.com

Good information. But it skirts the issue of the Hybrid's real world mpg vs say a Golf TDI. My Prius was incredible affected by air con, hills, high speed freeways (you will always see Prius in the "slow" lane), people on board, havy, heavy, heavy traffic. Also, my local dealer has a fair number in for repairs. Also parking attendants don't know how to drive them. I am not being partisan when I say that I believe a high % of buyers think they are "in" liberals by driving one---their sole rationality in a world in which they feel inferior. Give me the TDI anytime. Let Streisand drive one!

vs say a Golf TDI.

Besides the Golf TDI being quite a bit smaller and dramatically dirtier, its real-world MPG isn't all that impressive.

SHOW ME THE DATA!

I just plain do not believe claims that generically state it is better than a hybrid like Prius. Let's actully see detail that proves an automatic TDI in mixed driving can produce real-world MPG comparable to HSD. Checking the TDI owner's club, I haven't been able to find any.

I have owned a standard and an automatic TDI. They are close enough to the Prius that all the care needed to get thePrius mileage simply is not worth it.

Why should we believe that claim?

In any other venue, actual proof is needed.

JOHN
http://john1701a.com

Vague comments (like "close enough" and "all the care") are of no use either.

Show me the data.

JOHN
http://john1701a.com

Tou can't take hearing the data!

After 4 years of discussions like this, there is absolutely nothing new you can reveal. The best of the diesel supporters have already presented everything they had at their disposal to no avail.

JOHN
http://john1701a.com

krousb got 84.7 mpg for over 900 miles on the highway. That's 34.7 MORE MPG than the EPA's claim.

You forgot something. It's ridiculous as well!

it IS ridiculously high. But it IS TRUE.

What is wrong with you?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/flareak/Prius/85.jpg

good game. what is wrong with YOU?

85.7 MPG over 967 miles from a single tank of gas without filling.

That is not only absurd but unfair to post here, so that those contemplating buying one (they are good cars), think they will get anywhere near that mileage. You are a Kerryite. They will get in normal driving about 38-40 mpg., if they use air and do mixed driving. Can't you guys face it. I had to buy one to learn you were dreaming!

You're wrong. plenty of people get 48 mpg in normal driving. Where are you getting your data from? Your own Prius.. in which you were not careful enough to make sure you would not be waste gas because of different circumstances? THAT IS WHAT IS UNFAIR. The proof is right there for you. The Prius CAN get above EPA ratings and the average is 48 mpg for NORMAL DRIVERS. Why is that absurd?

The average is now 49 MPG (from greenhybrid.com)

Ah. Aaaaah. AAAACHOOOO!
http://greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/
*sniff*

Only 1 driver out of 73 fails to average over 40 MPG.

Guys, the mileage you quote is NOT the mileage promoted on the car. 60 is not 48! My TDI could get mileage in your league and it was WAY OVER the promoted mileage. Stop dreaming.

I hope I do not anger because it is not my purpose. Here are facts re my car:
1) The mileage figures are nonsense. If you use the air (90F) and if you do not become a road hazard---you get about 38 mpg.
2) You only get the advertised mileage if you use no air --stay under 60--and accelerate so slowly that the CVT hits its highpoint very early and you are a road hazard.
3) With an 11 gallon tank--aside from fuel cost--your range is not as good as a Lexus with a big tank and a 22mpg cruise.
4) A VW TDI is definitely better if you want good mileage with normal driving.
5) The fuel consumption readout drives one crazy.
6) People with Kerry stickers think you are like them.
Well I own one---but!

I have to recommend that you take your Prius back to the dealership and have it looked at. Here's what my wife's Prius gets on her 132 mile round trip commute, in vehicle temp set at 75 degrees (air comes on when necessary): 51.7 mpg. Her commute consists of approximately 30 miles I-95 at 65-70 mph, and 36 miles of 4-lane parkway at approx. 45 mph until the last 5-7 miles, then it's rush-hour stop and go. (Washington DC area). She uses a tank of gas a week...not too shabby, I'd say.

Don't have any Kerry sticker, you couldn't pay me enough to put one on anything I own. Don't care for greenpeace treehuggers either. Got the car for the gas mileage and for the fact that you can take the HOV lanes in Viginia with a hybrid car. Saves my wife about 30-45 mins in her commute.

I think that your figures make sense and I agree that 50 mpg is a very nice average if someone is driving in a normal manner. If the air conditioning were set to 68 in a hotter more southern climate---my guess would be 48-49. That is still very good.

I think that your figures make sense and I agree that 50 mpg is a very nice average if someone is driving in a normal manner. If the air conditioning were set to 68 in a hotter more southern climate---my guess would be 48-49. That is still very good.

I agree. Although "normal" driving is subjective. I probably wouldn't get the same gas mileage that my wife gets. I'm used to that V-8 I have in my Avalanche. So my medeocre gas mileage of 16/18 mpg that I get is more then offset by what she gets. I still recommend you take yours in though. The A/C is not operated by the gas motor, but electrically. Our temperature in the Northern VA region averages right up around 90 during the summer. They call this the south...definitely not the deep south though. I think you should be getting much better than 38 mpg even setting your temp at 68 and driving in 90+ temps outside. IMHO.

Hi, this is my first post on this site.

I've owned an 04 Honda Civic Hybrid since January and given the real owners data of all 3 hybrid cars at greenhybrid.com (http://www.greenhybrid.com) there is a large difference in individual performance.

All the regular ICE cars I've ever owned had a ~10MPG difference if driven hard Vs. conservatively. My Grand Caravan spread is about 7MPG.

Now my HCH is very much different....I can drive like a bat out of hell and get about 35MPG, or on the other extreme I've gottem about 66MPG (http://www.steve-dez.us/662.jpg) which is a whopping 30MPG difference. I always average 55-59MPG ~730 mile tanks.
I assume Prius is similar in regards to the MPG spread.

I think some people who buy hybrid cars expect the car to magically do it all...just hop in and gass it like we always did.

I see alot of parallels with the diet food industry.
Someone can spend money on the expensive diet food.
But they don't do their part...they don't exersize or seek advice, and they still remain fat.
They begin to blame the food, write letters to the FDA and publish articles slamming the diet food industry about false claims.

On the other hand someone else buys the same diet food, does his part with exersize and advice...He has wonderful results.

No, you don't have to drive as a road hazard as slow speed is not where great MPG is found. It is a technique that can be learned and even transfered over to your regular ICE vehicles.

Although in that case you'll gain far less MPG than you would in a hybrid car :p

Thanks for your time.

You are obviously from the South. Your post is the most accurate on this Board. It was why I started the thread. I was trying to say that my TDI could be driven normal (normal to me means---pass occasionaly--drive in the passing lane---cruise a little above the limit---etc) in short drive my car and enjoy and RESPECT it but not let it drive me. My Prius was a disgrace. Yes I could get excellent mpg but I had to let the car drive me! Light on the pedal so the cvt shifted up quick so the damned guage showed good mileage---watch the air--don't cruise at 80----in short a bore . I am not knocking the car but I feel it is for a an odd driver (no anger here but like Arnold would say a "girlie man") And then those idiotic Kerry stickers. If I did not personally know the guy it would not bother me so much. He IS a jerk.

You are obviously from the South. Your post is the most accurate on this Board. It was why I started the thread. I was trying to say that my TDI could be driven normal (normal to me means---pass occasionaly--drive in the passing lane---cruise a little above the limit---etc) in short drive my car and enjoy and RESPECT it but not let it drive me. My Prius was a disgrace. Yes I could get excellent mpg but I had to let the car drive me! Light on the pedal so the cvt shifted up quick so the damned guage showed good mileage---watch the air--don't cruise at 80----in short a bore . I am not knocking the car but I feel it is for a an odd driver (no anger here but like Arnold would say a "girlie man") And then those idiotic Kerry stickers. If I did not personally know the guy it would not bother me so much. He IS a jerk.

You're right, Kerry is a jerk...but that's another thread..LOL

The Prius is not a "normal" car and therefore it isn't driven "normal". You're right, in order to get close to the mpg figures, you have to drive the car the way it wants you to drive it, and that could be boring...but then again, unless I'm driving my HOG to work, the daily commute is boring no matter which car/truck I'm driving. My wife is actually having fun driving it. Unfortunately, people put too much into the EPA figures. The way they derive those numbers are not real-world. The run computer simulations based on gaseous output from the exhaust at various RPMs and "speeds". They need to do real-world, get out and drive the vehicles, but I fear their staff is not big enough to do that, so they use the computer simulation labs. Whenever you buy a car, no matter what it is, always use the EPA figures as what they are, an estimate. If you get close to them, consider yourself lucky, if you go over them, consider yourself really fortunate, but if you go under, don't sweat it. It doesn't mean the vehicle is bad...I don't put much faith in the EPA numbers anyway. Like I said, if I got close to them, I'd be very happy, but mainly I got the car because they are allowed to use the express lanes in Viginia without having 2-3 people in the car.

Guys, the mileage you quote is NOT the mileage promoted on the car. 60 is not 48! My TDI could get mileage in your league and it was WAY OVER the promoted mileage. Stop dreaming.

60 isnt the promoted mileage

its 60 city, 51 highway
48 is pretty close to the highway estimate... and i believe the EPA's highway value is 50mph. Sooo... we'll have to see what the average is that most people drive around in. For me.. most of the roads here are 45 MPH. That would mean my mpg would be closer to the EPA's highway estimate even though I consider myself not to be on the highway at all. Therefore, 48 mpg is not so far away from the EPA's 51 mpg.

"Vehicles are driven over identical driving patterns by professional drivers in controlled laboratory on a dynamometer. Road forces and aerodynamic forces are theoretically accounted for in the test. The city test is 7.5 miles long and is a stop and go trip with an average speed of about 20 miles per hour (mph). The trip lasts 23 minutes and has 18 stops. About 18 percent of the time is spent idling, as if waiting for traffic lights. A short freeway driving segment is included in the test. The engine is initially started after being parked overnight. The highway is a 10 mile trip with an average speed of 48 mph. The vehicle is started "hot" with little idling and no stops. Fuel economy values are calculated from the emissions generated during the tests using a carbon balance equation after measuring the carbon compounds expelled in the exhaust."

So its not that people don't get the EPA's Values. It depends on what speed you are going at. 80 mph on the highway is different than 48mph on the highway.

Oh baby! You could have been at Taladega today. No electric mobiles or Kerry voters there!

This amplifies a similar prior post. I just returned from a 1,000 mile trip in my SAAB (32mpg) and 80 mph most of the way. Again I must have seen 50 Prius(s)---ALL---I mean ALL driving in the right (slow lane) and below traffic speed. Why?????They are trying to get the mileage on their sticker and can't do much better than my SAAB if they go 80. What a complete farce. A car for the Liberals.

I think you've taken this waaay to much politically and personally. It's not fair to bash the Prius when you think its supported so much by liberals and you yourself are conservative. My friend has seen Prius flying at 90 from Columbia to St Louis so I doubt the validity of your statements as you are incredibly biased and right-winged. This will be the last post I will bother to write regarding this topic, which is a complete farse. Regarding your own mpg and your own experiences, you never brought forth evidence that you took the necessary precautions to improve fuel economy by carefully inspecting all the factors that lead to poor gas mileage. Who cares if all the other Prius are in the slow lane? They'll still be using less gas than you (www.greenhybrid.com) and polluting a lot less. yay conservatives.. only care about money and nothing else, like our environment or future.