Water/alcohol injecton (and why alcohol is better)

[Hypsi87]

OK Anohter question was asked about alcohol/water injection. OK this is something I have alot of experence on. My car went 11.78 on pump gas and alcohol. (3,548 lbs, drove to the track)


Alcohol injection works on the same theroy as A/C. The biggest thing that people over look is how important atomazation is for alcohol/water.

Alot of people think " Oh well I will just use a nitrous nozzle and spray it in my intake with my washer fluid pump..." Not enought pressure and not engough restriction to atomize the fulid. For example, you washer fluid pump will only make 25 PSI. My alcohol pump is pretty much a fuel pump capable of making 100 PSI. Nitrous nozzles will flow enough nitrous and fuel to support 50,100,150 HP shots. My nozzles will flow 7 gallons of alcohol in one hour. BIG difference. Another thing that people don't realize is that the alcohol/water does not give you any power advatages. The fact that you can run more boost and timing is the reason you make the power. Think of it as a type of intercooling. the more intercooling you have, the more boost you can run. Also you have to run the boost to support the alcohol. If you are running 10 PSI, don't waste the money. All you will get is a laggy turbo.

How it works

Alcohol/water works when the boost levels kick the switch for the pump. The pump starts to run and creates flow. the restriction from the nozzles and lines will create the pressure (All pumps do is create flow, system restriction creates pressre.) the high pressure alcohol goes through the orface in the nozzle and is atomized. The atomized alcohol hits the 150+ degree air and flashes into a vapor, when this happens heat is adsorbed (The same priciples as A/C) and the aircharge is supercooled. On my car when the alcohol starts to spray, my EGT's will drop 200 degrees in no time.

Timing what boost level to spary the alcohol is critical to preformance. If you spray too early, the alcohol will make the air too cool and you will have a laggy lazy turbocharger. If you are too late with it, you pre deatonate and risk blowing something up.


Why alcohol is better than water.

Well water injection has been around about as long as turbocharging. So everyone thinks that water is the best. Have people ever heard of research and devlopment.

While water is very good at controling deatonation and adsorbing heat. ALL WATER DOES IS STEAM AND SNUFF FLAME! Alcohol on the other hand... Burns. Alcohol has more HP potential than water, and when tuned right, that extra potential can be used.

Here is a good FAQ from alkycontrol.com.

What is alcohol injection? The premise of alcohol injection stems from the use of water injection, which has been used as a detonation control method since applications in WWII fighter plane engines. Injection reduces intake air temp charges tremendously, has a de-carbonizing effect on pistons and valves, will minimize plug fouling and will not harm the O2 sensor. Alcohol has a tremendous effect on reducing deposit buildup within the intake manifold. The fewer oil, grime and carbon deposits, the cleaner the engine will run…and with less detonation.

2) Will alcohol/water damage my engine? The answer to this question is no “IF” a properly designed system is in place. Water/alcohol will cause no damage to engine components assuming proper amounts are administered. Now, if the engine is not in a condition to handle the extra horsepower afforded by increased cylinder pressure (boost), then yes damage is quite possible. The state of tune and mechanical condition should be in ‘correct order’ before increasing cylinder pressure on any engine. One example relates to the fuel system. If your fuel pump, injectors and regulator are incapable of supporting the newly found horsepower and the engine leans out, damage will likely occur. Another example relates to bearings. If the engine is ‘tired’ or worn, addition of greater pressure to the lower end will lead to a shorter life span. Lastly, increased power levels will decrease life expectancy of drive train components such as transmissions and rear ends. There is always a price to be paid by elevating horsepower. An injection system will produce tremendous power gains on simple pump gasoline.

3) Can I run my current race fuel boost setting when using alcohol injection? Yes, though the timing used may be less. Some vehicles (like my own), will tolerate more boost with alcohol injection than with race fuel, though I run more timing on race gas than alcohol. Example: I can run 24 PSI on race gas, but any higher will produce detonation (KR) due to high incoming air temps and a moderately efficient intercooler. With alcohol injection and my own combination of components, I have seen in excess of 30PSI boost with no significant KR…and gone faster than I ever have using race fuel.

4) Will alcohol corrode my engine? No. While alcohol is corrosive to ‘submerged’ parts, once misted into a pressurized intake tract, it flashes and is subsequently consumed by the engine. Potentially, the reservoir, pump, lines and nozzle are the only parts where corrosion may be an issue since they will be in constant contact with the chemical.

5) Explain temperature drop? In laymen’s terms, go to a sporting event. You may see fans with little mist nozzles. If you walk in front of a fan while it’s misting water, you will be cooled down, but not soaked. Evaporative air conditioners operate on a similar principle.

6) Why reduce intake air temperature? To make more power. The cooler (more dense) the air entering the engine, the more power produced (without ‘knock’). The hotter the air, the more likely detonation will occur, particularly under pressurization.

7) Do I need a bigger intercooler with alcohol/water injection? One of the primary advantages to an injection system is reduction of air temps. If you run a small IC and wish to extend its capabilities, a properly designed alcohol injection system will allow higher boost levels and greater air temp reductions than even the largest liquid cooled intercoolers. Now, it should be noted that large intercoolers do provide benefits. Rather than reducing temperatures from lets say 300 to 100, we can now go from 200 to 50 degrees. The lower the temperatures exiting the IC, the more effective our alcohol injection system.

8) How much timing can I run with alcohol? This will depend on boost, intake air temps, engine’s state of tune and how much is being sprayed. Regarding horsepower increases, most turbocharged and supercharged engines generally respond better to low timing and higher boost rather than high timing and lower boost. Once the limit has been found on boost, then timing can be added while watching for the inevitable detonation.

9) How does one tune an injection system? The typical fashion of tuning an water/alcohol injection system is to monitor knock retard a.k.a. KR. On vehicles that have knock sensors it is a breeze, since the idea is to ‘spray’ the intake air tract, watch for KR while increasing boost pressure levels and monitor engine performance levels so they are not compromised by an excessive amount of spray.

10) How much is too much? Typically on cars tuned at the race track, one watches for most MPH increase at the finish line while at the same time monitoring for KR. Typically the greatest power will be found when the engine is on the verge of producing KR, but does not. In other words, ‘spray’ just enough to avoid KR without flooding the engine.

11) What happens if I spray too much? The engine generally responds by losing power, but without detonating. In laymen’s terms, think of it as pouring water into your mouth versus drinking from a cup.

12) Why alcohol over water? This is the big controversy on the internet injection sites. While proponents of water can be found on various injection websites, it has been my own finding along with others, that injecting higher concentrations of alcohol as compared to water can produce more power. This is due to the fact alcohol burns and water steams. They both offer detonation control, but the higher octane afforded by alcohol, allows for far superior horsepower production. Top alcohol dragsters are examples. They run tremendous cylinder pressures on alcohol and if one looks at the intake manifold on an alchy burning racecar, it will look ‘iced down’ after a run. Also, because of the cooling properties of alcohol, these types of racecars are typically left running in order for engine temperatures can be raised. That shows how effective alcohol can be.

13) How does the system work? Typically an alcohol injection system is comprised of a reservoir, pump, nozzle and a method to energize the pump under specific conditions. In its simplest form, a pressure switch is used to trigger a relay that in turn applies power to the pump. This arrangement works, but has limitations. It is important to keep the air fuel ratio (AFR) stable while introducing a substance into the engine. This is even more necessary with alcohol, since it is combustible.

14) Why use boost versus rpm? Higher boost levels will increase cylinder pressures, not rpm’s. In other words, KR is initiated more so by boost than by rpm…so that is the reason injection systems are triggered by boost rather than rpm. Normally aspirated engines are the exception. These applications normally can be designed using a vacuum switch set at a low level (like 2 inches to trigger). At this trigger point the system ‘fires’ the nozzle.

15) Why progressive? With a ‘set turn-on point’ system, typically the activation point will be earlier than the engine will experience KR. This is done due to the lag time between pump ‘firing’, lines filling, nozzle misting, air saturation and this air making its way into the combustion chamber. For example, if a particular engine is known to experience detonation at 13 PSI boost, activating the system at 13 PSI while the turbo or blower is in the process of increasing pressure to 20 PSI, detonation will occur until the alcohol makes it way into the chamber. Therefore, some systems are triggered a few lbs. ‘early’ in an effort to avoid the dreaded KR. Example: 9 PSI ‘turn-on point’. The needle starts climbing on the boost gauge. At 9 PSI it fires the system and by the time the boost is at 13 PSI the motor is seeing alcohol. Everything’s great, right? Wrong…herein lies a problem in making power. If an engine at 20PSI boost pressure requires 100PSI pressure on a nozzle to offset detonation, applying that same100 PSI pressure at 9 PSI boost will REDUCE the AFR tremendously, thereby reducing performance as the engine is attempting to build boost and thus power. The solution in keeping AFR lean and mean throughout the boost-rising curve is to gradually increase pressure from the pump. Low boost=low pressure. High boost=high pressure. So here is where the magic takes place…most cars will never have exact boost pressure readings. Variables include such things as outside air temperature, barometric pressure, humidity, wastegate control, exhaust, boost controller, etc. A progressive system with a manifold air pressure (MAP) capable of adjusting to the pressure will yield the best results by lowering or raising system pressure. As boost creeps up, the system automatically increases output. Conversely, boost goes down, the system automatically decreases output.

16) How will your PAC system make my car faster than what your competitors offer? Reasonable question. Key points…automatic and progressive. Our system automatically adjusts injection to your engine ‘as needed’ while assuring a more stable AFR as boost pressure increases. The important end result? A much more linear power curve. Also, my progressive controller is the only one on the market that allows for an adjustable ramp control, a reduced output control input on the controller, potted electronics, regulated circuitry, voltage and surge suppression. High impedance on all inputs makes the controller virtually invisible to electronics within the vehicle, so it interfaces with all aftermarket electronics.

17) What is a “reduced output control input”? The controller has an input connection that when “ground” is applied to the wire it reduces pressure output from the pump to assist with building boost on cars run at race tracks. This feature makes for a faster spool-up while the system is on. Other applications are for clutches in order to reduce output while a clutch is depressed for example.

18) Why make the ramp variable? This is done to tailor the pressure being produced by the pump to meet the requirements of the engine. In other progressive controllers this is preset and can be a major problem if too much voltage is sent to the pump at a boost level that is too low. Our controllers allow for an “initial” ramp speed control and a fine-tuning control of this initial ramp speed to compensate for changes in weather and racing conditions.

19) Why Alkycontrol over the competition? We only use the highest quality materials in an effort to assure you have the most reliable and durable system possible for your vehicle. The same level of expertise is applied if we custom design a system to fit your specific vehicle and performance requirements.

20) Why use a filter? The nozzles used in our kits have a small diameter orifice. To prevent the clogging of the nozzle, our pressure hose incorporates a filter with a much smaller micron design in order to capture any debris that may make its way into and out of your container. The filter is back washable using alcohol and never needs replacement. It is fully compatible with alcohol, water or mixtures thereof.

21) Does your system need a lube added? Lube is dependant on the type of pump being used. On our system no lube is required to lubricate the pump. Actually, we don’t recommend the use of lubricants with our pump. You’ll have plenty of oil inside your intake and in the gasoline used. If the alcohol you purchase has the lube premixed, it has no bearing on operation.

22) Who would not see increased power using AI? An example would be a racecar using a huge liquid intercooler packed with ice and using C16 race gas. Once you address the temperature and octane the benefits are reduced to EGT control and cleaning. In an application such as this, benefits are reduced.

23) How does one tune a system? This is the question where starting out mild then going to wild pays the most benefits. Typically, for a few lbs. of boost over stock levels almost no changes are required. For higher power levels, recalibrating (reducing) the fueling and incorporating higher volumes of alcohol while adjusting timing will yield the best results. This is an individual thing. There is no one set of rules that will apply to all vehicles. There are too many variables.

24) Can I use windshield washer fluid? If you check the chemical composition of the washer fluid and ascertain it doesn’t contain soap or chemicals that would be detrimental to the operation of the vehicle, yes. Examples are winter formulas that use 50-100% concentrations of methanol.

25) What kind of alcohol? Any…as long as it doesn’t contain sugar. Some examples are methanol, denatured and isopropyl.

26) Where can I buy denatured? This type of alcohol is typically found in paint stores and is used as thinner.

27) Where can I buy isopropyl? This is also known as rubbing alcohol…available at most pharmacies.

28) Where can I buy methanol? This is also known as racing alcohol. Look in your phone book under automobile racecars. Start calling around. Typically, with a little effort you will find a source. I purchase mine at a local race gas supplier and my local ¼ mile racetrack sells it for $2.50/gallon at the pump. Other uses are chemical processing for cosmetics. So, industrial chemical suppliers may be a possible source. One of my customers reported his company buys a 55gallon drum for $110.00. Also sprint cars, go-karts, etc. use methanol as a fuel.

29) What works the best? Personally, I have observed the highest power output when racing with 100% methanol.

30) Can the system pose a threat to my vehicle? Our systems are designed for off-road-use only. While we cannot encourage filling the container with straight alcohol when the vehicle will be operated on public roadways, mixing a ‘diluted’ 50/50 solution of alcohol/water renders the alcohol non-flammable…and there is always the option of using straight water. In an effort to minimize risks associated with a flammable liquid, our systems include braided hoses, but user discretion and safety precautions are strongly advised. We cannot assume any liability for damages incurred by the use and/or improper installation of a flammable liquid system in a passenger vehicle.

[-Jayson-]

excellent right up

on jbody.org we just got through a huge discussion with this and if we could use it on a roots blower. We found out that its fine to do and alot of us will be upping the boost on our Eatons with the adding cooling power of alchohol.

[Zgringo]

If I may add to your super artical Hypsi87. Keep it up, we need more posts like this.

1. What are the benefits of Water/Methanol injection?

(Gasoline):
1. Low cost - where else can you get up to 60HP for $299.
2. More power than other means of detonation control.
3. Efficiency - leaner air fuel ratio can be utilized for normal operation.
4. Greatly increases air charge densities for huge horsepower increases.
(Diesel):
1. Greatly reduced EGT’s. Decreases of 250 degrees F are common using a 50/50% Methanol /Water mix. This prevents the usual problems associated with high exhaust car temperatures - rings sticking, holed pistons, etc.
2. Low cost power - where else can you get 70-100 HP for approximately $400 along with reduced EGT's.
3. Greatly increased air charge densities - 3-5 psig boost increases are common.
4. Great for towing - more power/cooler EGT's to haul the heaviest loads.

2. Do I need an Intercooler with Water/Methanol injection?

Up to approximately 20 psi boost, water/methanol injection will provide all the density increase/detonation control needed in most applications. Of course, Intercooling and water/methanol injection would provide even greater benefits especially beyond 20 psi boost. Most air-to-air intercoolers are only 50-65% efficient. That means for example, that with 11psi boost and its 120°f air charge temperature increase, an intercooler reduces the air charge temperature only 60 degrees. Also, an intercooler will reduce boost 2 - 4 psi. on average.

3. Why not use a windshield washer pump?

Water/Methanol must be injected at above 50psi to properly atomize. Lower than 50psi causes greatly reduced air charge cooling as the result of larger droplets and their reduced total surface area.

4. Why methanol?

Methanol is a high octane fuel that is extremely resistant to detonation with an excellent cost/benefit ratio. ($1.50 - $2.00 per gallon.) Its high latent heat of vaporization also makes it an excellent air charge cooler which means a denser mixture and more horsepower. Because of these facts, it is a better anti-detonant than ethanol or iso-propanol although they will work in a pinch. It has however only about 60% of the energy content of gasoline by volume so about twice as much is used to make similar power if used as a straight fuel. It is extremely toxic and should be handled with rubber gloves in well ventilated areas only. Care should be taken to avoid skin contact.

5. How much Water/Methanol?

To prevent detonation, the ratio of Water/Methanol to gasoline is roughly 1 to 5 in gasoline applications- 1 to 4 in diesel. In practice, you give it as much water / methanol as it takes to eliminate detonation without quenching combustion. The amount depends on the onset RPM of injection, the octane of the gasoline, fuel/air ratio, cylinder head type, even the weather conditions. Your engine is actually pretty tolerant of extra water vapor, you will know it's too much when the engine misses and loses power.

6. Where can I purchase Methanol?

Methanol can generally be purchased where racing fuels are sold. Also, most gas line dryers like "Heat" are simply Methanol. Suppliers of industrial chemicals can also supply Methanol usually at a higher price than fuel suppliers. If all else fails, most windshield washer fluids are up to 40% Methanol and 58% water. Methanol can be purchased on the web at www.worldwideracingfuels.com and hiperfuels.com.

7. How long will a tank (2 qts.) last?

In high boost/high horsepower application, a full blast 1/4 mile run will utilize as much as 1/8 tank. A larger tank should be considered if over 9psi boost is utilized in road racing where a tank can be used in as few as 6 - 2 mile/ full tilt laps. Under normal street use in a 400 HP Mustang, a tank usually lasts about 500 miles. Two reservoirs can be used for 1-gal total capacity if desired. Turbo diesels use more qty. and usually utilize the existing windshield washer reservoir (over 4 qts. in most cases) or the new 8-gal reservoir upgrade. More will always be used when the system is first installed, less when the novelty wears off.

8. Can I use windshield washer fluid?

Although most contain some glycol and detergent, most windshield washer fluids are up to 50% alcohol (methanol, ethanol, isopropanol) and make an excellent mix for street use. Try to find one that indicates "contains methanol".

9. At what boost level do I introduce Water/Methanol?

Centrifugal superchargers/large turbos: Generally, at 50% of peak boost the recommended quantity should be introduced. Positive displacement superchargers/ fast spooling turbos: injection should occur at or near peak boost to avoid combustion quench since peak boost occurs so fast.

10. What ratio of Water/Methanol is recommended?

A 50/50 ratio is recommended. This has been demonstrated to be the best for charge/air cooling, excellent detonation control, and controlling cylinder temperature. This includes diesel applications where water conditions the combustion of the methanol so combustion timing isn't affected.

11. Many recommend Denso Iridium spark plugs in boosted applications. Will these work also with water/methanol injection?

Denso Iridium spark plugs are highly recommended with the Boost Cooler®. Iridiums, with their low firing thresholds and intense spark, allow for larger quantities to be injected sooner without misfiring. This allows for more cooling of the intake air. If you have a misfiring problem, nine times out of ten, Iridiums will clear it up.

12. Will water/methanol harm my engine?

In theory, at recommended quantities, most of the mixture is evaporated before it hits the combustion chamber. Also, injection only takes place at high boost levels minimizing cylinder wash concerns. Engines that have been torn down after two years of water/methanol usage have shown no wear issues only clean combustion chambers. In fact, water/methanol reduces the probability of engine destroying detonation. Think of it as an insurance policy against detonation.

13. Can Water/alky injection be applied to naturally aspirated and nitrous engines?

1.Naturally aspirated/high compression engines:
In this application, water/methanol injection allows the use of pump fuel in all but the most extreme situations which effects tremendous cost savings as well as horsepower increases due to air density increase and realized timing potential. The system is activated by a throttle switch so that injection takes place only during high engine loads when needed.
2. NOS engines: With NOS, water/methanol injection allows the use of full timing even with large (250HP+) quantities. Injection is controlled by the same means that controls NOS injection.
3. Naturally aspirated/stock compression: With naturally aspirated engines with less than 10:1 compression, water/methanol is used typically in warm climates to get the intake temps back to 60°f. Benefits include: 10-15 HP increases from air density increases and full timing, Increased gas mileage, and carbon free combustion chambers. Activation is by a throttle switch adjusted for onset engine load. With this application, the nozzle is sized so that no more than 10% of total fuel consumption at peak flywheel HP is injected.

14. Why is Water/Methanol injection so effective on Diesels?

Unlike gasoline engines, the power in a turbo diesel is largely a function of fuel. The problem with continually adding fuel is that you reach a point where the exhaust gas temperatures become prohibitive (over 1500 degrees F). A 50/50% Methanol/Water mix will decrease EGT's approximately 250°+ while increasing power 70-100HP.
Power is increased through:
a. Intake charge cooling - Water/methanol will lower air charge temps over 200°f in this application.
b. Methanol - this acts as a fuel as well as cooling the intake charge.
Where else can you get this kind of power with cooler EGT's!

15. Is this technology new with Turbo Diesel?

Water/methanol injection has been used extensively for years in high performance truck/tractor pullers. With the elevated boost levels required for peak power, water/methanol is a common means of cooling the intake charge and reducing exhaust gas temps. Also, truckers have used water injection for years to increase fuel mileage.If I

[Thourun]

Ok, well what about runing windshield washer fluid which is like 60/40 meth/water or somthing, how much worse would that be than runing straight meth (for street use)? And what about propane, the only person I know who runs any of these uses propane and swears by it but he only has the boost turned up to 18psi... its kinda funny to see a little propane tank in the trunk lol.

[Zgringo]

What about propane? It was first interduced to the automobile in 1917. It never took off and less than 2% of the automobiles on the US highways today use it.
On a per unit weight basis, liquid propane contains about five percent more energy than gasoline; however, the density is 30 percent less. The net result is that a litre of propane (lighter) contains about 28 percent less energy than a litre of gasoline. Propane has an octane of 110. Propane has been used in racing and hi-performance cars but never been popular.

What about hydrogen?

[Thourun]

I'd guess the main thing holding back hydrogen would be that its more expensive and hard to find, not like you can go to the local grill shop and fill up your tank like you can with propane.

[Zgringo]

Originally Posted by Thourun

I'd guess the main thing holding back hydrogen would be that its more expensive and hard to find, not like you can go to the local grill shop and fill up your tank like you can with propane.

Say what? You can make hydrogen with a little electric and some water. Have a hydrogen convertor in your garage.

[Thourun]

Yea I guess, but dosent hydrolysis consume a butload of energy? Also how would I pressurize the stuff once it is made? Lol I don't think my parents would be too happy about me having large amounts of hydrogen and pure oxygen "distilling" in the garrage, they hate the fact that I have a potato gun and thickend gas in there .

[Zgringo]

Originally Posted by Thourun

Yea I guess, but dosent hydrolysis consume a butload of energy? Also how would I pressurize the stuff once it is made? Lol I don't think my parents would be too happy about me having large amounts of hydrogen and pure oxygen "distilling" in the garrage, they hate the fact that I have a potato gun and thickend gas in there .

You can get a pump similar to a nitrous pump (service station) and pump to your hearts content.
And if you installed some solar panels or a wind generator, now your talking going real cheap, tell the government taxes you for sun useage.

[Thourun]

I just want to be able to go somplace in town and fill up lol, solar stuff is expensive. How much power do hydrogen powerd cars make compared to regular cars?

[Zgringo]

Originally Posted by Thourun

I just want to be able to go somplace in town and fill up lol, solar stuff is expensive. How much power do hydrogen powerd cars make compared to regular cars?

I know there starting to build service stations for hydrogen cars. As for power, from what i've read almost equal to gasoline..
Do alittle google and tell me what you find.

Aired live from the beautiful Aladdin Hotel in downtown Las Vegas.

[Thourun]

I know there starting to build service stations for hydrogen cars

Yea lol, in Iceland!

[drftk1d]

Originally Posted by Thourun

Yea lol, in Iceland!

Try California.

[Thourun]

Realy? Well I live in Massachusetts so thats quite a drive to fill up still lol.

[Hypsi87]

Propane can be used like alcohol injection...


they spray it into the aircharge just like alcohol. However, I am not all that fimilar with it.



Also I like to use denatured alcohol instead of methanol. While methanol is cheaper, it is more corrosive. denatured alcohol is mostly eythl alcohol (which is pretty much everclear denatured with a bit of methanol.) It is easyier on pumps and lines.