411 on Gen 4 "Sludge" problem...

[yotatechie04]

Anyone out there know where I can find all the information on the "Sludge Problem" in the gen 4 (97-99)? I'd appreciate all the information that I can possibly get. I think that my Camry might be a victim of this problem and I want to stop it before it could possibly get any worse.

[Brian R.]

Here is a topic from Edmunds:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/Web...S.1@.ee996d0/0

[yotatechie04]

Thanks for the info Brian, it's helped quite a bit. I don't think I've ever seen so many posts on one engine subject like I did on there.

[Brian R.]

Unfortunately, I read that thread and never got a clear idea of whether it is a general problem with the engine, or if it is mainly a driver-habit or maintenance-habit related one. I never saw any poster that had the problem with good mainenance and good driving habits. Most posters don't include anything except anecdotal information.

Don't let the volume of discussion fool you, a good percentage of that thread is pure argument.

BTW That thread is a continuation of two other threads (Camry and Camry 2) that apparently got off-topic (See post #1). There may be alot of information in those previous topics.

[Brian R.]

Here's a quick summary (by 210delray) of the discussion :

"I looked through past posts and came up with only six in Edmunds who reported sludge, after the dealer or other service personnel pulled the valve cover or oil pan: rrinehart, tricia barbee (V6), Boca2, isellhondas, eden1, and aquatic (a.k.a. "frank" in alt.auto.toyotacamry). Plus there were two more elsewhere: "Norm" in alt.auto and liufei's post from looksmart. Did I miss any others?

The one common thread through these (at least where enough detail is available) is that the cars all accumulated relatively few miles per year and the oil was changed about every 6000 to 8000 miles, some with Pennzoil which some of you think is bad stuff.

So it seems that following Toyota's normal-service recommendation of 7500 miles between oil changes for cars that are used in short-trip driving CAN lead to problems. Still, it's fairly well known that short-trip driving, especially in cold weather, is a severe-service condition. Toyota itself recommends 5000-mile / 4-month oil and filter changes for severe service.

However, Consumer Reports (which is far and away the best source for LONG-TERM reliability information) indicates close to stellar reliability for the Camry engines, 4-cylinder or V6.

Still, sludge would not manifest itself to the average consumer UNLESS it caused more serious problems, such as seized engines in rrinehart's and tricia barbee's cases. (It would be nice to hear from them to see how they made out.) So maybe some (many?) people have sludge but don't realize it.

Fxashun claims that the presence of sludge can be deduced from deposits on the oil cap. Others say that at least the valve cover has to be pulled first. I would tend to agree with the latter, unless maybe the cap had an half-inch-thick buildup of the stuff. Fxashun: can you tell us how many of the 50 or so caps that you checked had thick buildups? And NO other car models had buildups anything like the Camry 4-cylinder?

Then there's the possible related problem of valve stem seals going bad, as happened with my '97 Camry 4-cylinder, with only 57K miles. (Other posters in edmunds have had this probem, not necessarily with sludge). I changed the oil and filter following Toyota's severe-service schedule. Why did the dealer say, when I described the symptom of blue smoke on start-up, that the first thing they were going to do was check for sludge? Does Toyota know something? (Luckily my engine was said to be "fairly clean" [whew!] and the valve stem seals were replaced under the powertrain warranty.)

Let's try to keep this going without this getting into another shouting match between the two sides. Personally, I still love my Camry, but if there's something going on, let's try to get to the bottom of it."

[Brian R.]

And here is an explanation for the sludge occurance by fxashun (one of the instigators of the sludge problem discussion):

I asked our buyers and techs why this happens and here's their reason. When Toyota went to 2.2 liters from 2.0 in the Camry for some reason it caused the engine to run hotter in the upper cylinder area. This breaks down the oil faster that the recommended oil change interval allows for. If a Camry is cared for "by the book" there is a very good chance it will probably have sludge. If it has oil changes every 3000 miles or so it should be OK. It's just that many people don't.

Sludge can be checked in the Camry by looking in the oil cap because it screws right into the valve cover. It is not necessary to pull the valve cover in the 4 cyl. Camry to check for sludge because of this. You can actually look into the oil filler and see the insides of the cover. If the filler was in a remote position or covered as on the V6 models you WOULD have to remove the valve covers.

[yotatechie04]

All right, I understand now, I didn't really have time to read through the whole thing on edmunds, although I never really got what was causing it either until your last post. I'm going to have to go out there sometime soon and take a good look at it and see. Thanks for the info once again Brian!

[Brian R.]

You're welcome

See also: http://yotarepair.com/Sludge_Zone.html

[Brian R.]

Here's what Toyota says:

http://yotarepair.com/News_release.html

Note the following paragraph in the article below: "This is a maintenance issue-We simply have not found one case in which a properly maintained Toyota or Lexus has experienced sludge build-up and the related mechanical problems associated with this condition. The vast majority of our customers follow our recommended maintenance schedules and avoid the risk."


Toyota Motor Company news release 2/8/02

Toyota Special Policy Assures Customer Satisfaction And Emphasizes Importance Of Proper Vehicle Maintenance

February 8, 2002 -- Torrance, CA -- Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., has implemented a Special Policy Adjustment (SPA) as a measure to insure customer satisfaction for a very small number of Toyota and Lexus owners who may have experienced a condition known as engine oil gelling, which can be caused by a lack of proper vehicle maintenance.

This condition, not unique to Toyota or Lexus products, tends to occur due to three factors. Changing motor oil less frequently than the recommended interval is the primary cause along with short, stop-and-go-driving cycles and cold weather climates. Symptoms of oil gelling include blue smoke coming from the tailpipe and/or excessive oil consumption, which may cause the malfunction indicator light (MIL) to illuminate.

If a customer vehicle exhibits signs of oil gelling, and the owner can show reasonable evidence of regular engine maintenance, Toyota will cover expenses related to the condition. This one-time goodwill gesture provides coverage for circumstances that would not be covered under warranty and is offered on a case-by-case basis for one year.

"We're not aware of any cases of oil gelling in properly maintained engines," said Bob Daly, TMS group vice president and general manager of Toyota Customer Services. "The vast majority of Toyota owners, and motorists in general, regularly maintain their vehicles and will never encounter this condition. But for some, busy schedules, budget considerations or misunderstanding of what constitutes 'normal' versus 'severe' driving conditions may result in neglecting their vehicle.

"Even though the complaint rate is extremely low, we think this is the perfect opportunity to go the extra mile to emphasize the need for proper maintenance of any vehicle and to spare a very few owners costly repairs," added Daly.

Letters reminding customers about the importance of keeping up with their vehicle's recommended maintenance programs and detailing the specifics of the SPA were sent to owners of potentially affected vehicles beginning in February 2002. Vehicles involved in this SPA include certain 1997-2001 model-year vehicles with four- and six- cylinder engines.

Toyota and Lexus owner's manuals stipulate oil changes every 7,500 miles or six months, whichever comes first under normal driving conditions, and 5,000 miles or four months under severe operating conditions. The 5,000-mile, or severe schedule, should be adhered to if a customer drives on unpaved or dusty roads, tows a trailer or makes repeated trips of less than five miles in cold temperatures.

"Toyota understands that customers can sometimes be confused about how to properly maintain their vehicles," commented Daly. "We're confident that this program will remind customers of their responsibility as well as reassure those who have had regular oil changes that they have nothing to be concerned about."

Toyota and Lexus vehicles are known worldwide for quality, dependability and reliability as shown by independent research from various well-known organizations. In fact, in the 2001 J.D. Power and Associates Vehicle Dependability Study (VDI), which examines the durability of vehicles after four to five years of ownership, Toyota and Lexus had 14 vehicles rank in the top-three of their respective segments.

Toyota owners who feel they qualify for repairs or reimbursement under the Special Policy Adjustment can call 888-802-9436 for more information. Lexus owners can call 888-654-6421.

The Facts About Toyota's Special Policy Adjustment (SPA)-Engine Oil Maintenance

February 8, 2002

Of all the many claims made about engine oil sludge these days, this much is true: It's an industry-wide issue that's existed since the dawn of the internal combustion engine.

We're Toyota Motor Sales USA-the US distributor of Toyota and Lexus cars and trucks-and together with our 1375 dealers, we'd like to set the record straight about sludge and our Special Policy Adjustment (SPA) for Engine Oil Maintenance.

Whether it's called sludge or engine oil gel, it's nasty stuff and bad for engines. It happens when old, dirty oil becomes thick and no longer does what it was meant to do-lubricate the engine. It's certainly not unique to Toyota.

We recently made a decision to reimburse owners of certain 1997-2001 Toyota and Lexus vehicles for engine problems related to oil gelling, even though all of our evidence indicates the problem is caused by improper maintenance-not by a product flaw.

Why would a company do that?

We did so voluntarily because we care about our customers and believe the experience of owning and driving our products should mirror the high quality of the vehicles themselves. And frankly, we take great pride in the reputation our dealers and we have earned as the industry benchmark for quality and reliability. We also hope this goodwill offer will heighten awareness of the importance of regular maintenance.

Our engine oil maintenance SPA is straightforward, providing assistance to owners of the affected vehicles who encounter engine problems related to oil gelling as a result of failure to maintain their engines properly.

We work very closely with our dealers to ensure we hear the voice of our customers and are able to respond to what they tell us about our products and their ownership experience. We monitor internet forums along with our own websites to help us capture all relevant public opinion about our company and products and, when needed, to clarify any of our policies or actions that provoke inaccurate or erroneous claims.

We're eager to provide additional facts about our Engine Oil Maintenance Special Policy Adjustment and its provisions:

· This is a maintenance issue-We simply have not found one case in which a properly maintained Toyota or Lexus has experienced sludge build-up and the related mechanical problems associated with this condition. The vast majority of our customers follow our recommended maintenance schedules and avoid the risk.

· We are offering assistance under this special program to owners of 1997-2001 Camrys, Solaras, Siennas, Avalons, Celicas and Highlanders as well as 1997-2001 Lexus ES300s and RX300s and are contacting them with a letter.

· Toyota and Lexus owners enjoy one of the best power train warranties in the automotive industry, but damage caused by improper maintenance is excluded from that coverage.

· The Special Policy Assistance for owners of affected vehicles will reimburse them for repairs already completed for the effects of oil gelling. It goes one step further by protecting our customers who undergo engine problems related to oil gelling for up to a year following our letter. We're asking all of our custom


That's all there is...

[yotatechie04]

I really appreciate all of the information that you've provided. I've got a feeling that sooner or later mine's going to start slugging around...the engine is getting tougher to crank now, and there is a bit of "sludge" under the valve case. I've got a feeling it's going to be due for a rebuild come 100,000mi. I'm almost at 90 now. Eeek. Can't wait. But thanks again for all of the information you've provided. The links were really relevant.

[camrytuner]

hmm..that's funny that they say that. I was always told that it was because of the hose composition. My gen 3 never had a sludge problem for oil, just radiator hoses that dried out and gelled out.

[Brian R.]

yotatchie - I would try flushing your engine immediately before the next oil change. Another tact an old mechanic friend of mine used was to always use a quart of ATF in place of one quart of oil in the crankcase. He said that his engine stayed very clean since the ATF is high detergent. YMMV

If I owned a sludging engine, I would be very tempted to follow his advise.

[yotatechie04]

Well thanks again Brian, I'll have to try that. I've got another oil change coming up soon anyways. Couldn't hurt.

[Brian R.]

Another link from this forum:
http://groups.msn.com/ToyotaOwnersUn...age=610&DDir=1