Fair Warning to all Subaru drivers!

[fatality]

In june of 2002, my mom died in a fatal crash in her 2001 Subaru Legacy Outback. She was on a freshly tarred road with NO signs to warn her and open to 70mph traffic, when she ran onto the shoulder with her right front wheel. She corrected to pull the car back on the road, and then found herself drifting at a slight angle and corrected for a SECOND time.
That's what the police told us had happened, and the tracks clearly showed that the car had already whipped around front to back by the time it went off the road, then continued to careen across a field, side impacted and embankment, flipped and rolled and came crashing down on it's side, then flipped and rolled again and landed on the roof.
When she was found, she had suffered a minor laceration and bruising in the face from the air bag, and it speaks for the Outback that if her neck had not been snapped in the side impact, she would have walked away with very minor injuries in a rather spectacular and vicious accident.
While I understood the theory of being in your second correction, it was still bothering me because Mom and me both had to deal with some very ruthless people since Dad died, and I could not exclude the possibility of foul play.
Last week I was riding on my motorcycle on a straightaway going up a mountain, and this Subaru in the oncoming lane did the exact same thing, and ran onto the shoulder with his right front wheel. The driver corrected, and immediately the Subaru came drifting at ME! As I saw him getting closer and closer, I kept thinking "correct, CORRECT!", when suddenly it dawned on me that this was precisely how my Mom had died, and that if the driver so much as touched the steering wheel before the car was in a solid vector again, it would just whip around and kill me instantly. So I changed my mind about that, and started thinking "DON'T correct, DO NOT correct"!
I saw it very clearly in my mind, how all four wheels were trying to get a grip, and how by correcting a second time, all the force of the drift, the weight of the car and the power from the engine would all get "caught" on the left front wheel, with the inevitable result of snagging really hard, whipping around, killing me in its path, and also the driver who would be off spinning like a top into a rockwall going about 70mph.
Everything happened to fast for me to realize what had just happened, and I realize now that I should have turned around and talked to the driver, and thank him for keeping his cool and not killing us both.
But I didn't, and so I am posting my experience here, hoping that someone somewhere will remember this and not lose their life.
I am not saying the Subaru is "unsafe", as a matter of fact, I was deeply impressed with the car myself. But there are a couple of reasons why older people should absolutely NOT drive a Legacy or an Outback or any AWD vehicle with ABS brakes. My Mom had been driving cars since the early 50's, and it worried me sick that everytime the brake pedal would "bounce" like it is supposed to, she panicked and let her foot off. I tried to practice this with her, and she just kept saying that "there is something wrong". We had the brake system thoroughly checked by the dealer, and I have to say, there aren't very many cars where you can just stand on the brakes going 100mph and absolutely nothing happens, IF YOU LEAVE YOUR FOOT ON THE BRAKE!
She just couldn't get herself to do so, which made the car very unsafe and dangerous for her, especially in the rural area where she lived, with lots of unexpected hazards like deer, and tractors towing big equipment coming around blind turns....
But, as we know now, the brakes is not what killed her, the AWD did.
Any car is prone to whipping around, be it FWD, RDW or FWD when you get into your second correction. As a matter of fact, VW Bugs are notorious for "rolling over" for no apparent reason, and it is of course the fact that some people don't dial in their turns properly, and then "compensate" which, when compensated in the wrong direction (away from the drift) will result in a rollover as the entire load of the vehicle and the drift is forced on exactly the wheel that is not supposed to grab the road in a drift.
But, as I very clearly saw in my experience, the problem is greatly exaggerated in a Subaru AWD because the computer is very smart and will immediately aggravate the problem by adding hp to the already loaded wheel, making a "snap" inevitable.
So you might say this is a "design flaw", but that's not really any more true than it would be a design flaw that you would avoid hitting the brakes in a turn with a RWD vehicle. I had a '65 Corvair once, which everybody warned me was "dangerous". Not true, the earlier Corvairs had a stiff rear axle and were regular death traps, but the problem was fixed with a Four Wheel Independent Suspension in '65. What caused people to crash in them still was that they had learnt to drive on a RWD/front engine car, and were unaware that if you come into a turn too fast, it is imperative that you shift down, hit the throttle and push the car through the turn when the weight of your engine sits on your rear axle. So that's a good example of what I mean by the Subaru "not suffering a design flaw". However, the dealer will not tell you that you must avoid a second correction under any circumstance with an AWD vehicle, because it will make the car look bad and dangerous when really, it's not the car, it's the way people drive them, just like the newer model Corvairs.
So, not having taken the opportunity to tell the driver in the Subaru that almost killed me, I am posting my findings here in the hope that someone will become aware of this absolutely deadly quirk on the Subaru AWD cars.
If ever you find yourself drifting after correcting with your steering wheel, DO NOT panic and give in to the temptation of wanting to correct the Drift, it will end in tears and much worse.
LET the vehicle recover on it's own, DO NOT "help" by manipulating the steering wheel and firmly hold it steady until all four wheels are safely tracking the road again, THEN make the necessary correction.
So even if you are drifting directly at another vehicle, keep in mind that any evasive maneuver will do the exact opposite of what you might try to do, only much, much worse. Even if you drift into an oncoming vehicle, the damage will be minor and without much consequence, whereas correcting a second time will hit that vehicle with the force of a giant baseball bat and cause extensive damage and injury, possibly even death.
So all you Subie drivers, you have every reason to feel safe in one of the best handling and performing vehicles in its class, but do be aware of this inherent weakness because it's the kind of mistake you only get to make once, should you ever loose your cool, and don't even think about getting one for your parents. Older people don't drive "aware", older people drive instinctively and "instinct" will misguide you if you don't have all your facts straight and don't understand what is happening with your car.
As I've said, ANY car will misbehave in a second correction, but some are more forgiving than others, and the Subaru is completely unforgiving in that respect.
I would drive any Subaru in a heartbeat and thoroughly enjoy it, but I would NOT ever in a million years let my parents, my teenager or even my wife drive on if she was not mechanically savvy enough to understand that there are certain things you cannot, must not and should not ever do in a Subaru.......

[speedphreak]

Well i am sorry for your loss....but maybe you should know how to drive an AWD car before you purchase one. AWD is the safest as far as chassis if properly driven with knowledge. I have been in many situations where I have had to correct...some intentional, some not...and I have never lost control of my vehicle. I drive a 2003 wrx sedan and I love it! You should not be coming on here saying a Subaru killed your mother...it could of been a Ford Explorer or any other vehicle for that matter...sorry for the loss.

-Chris

[fatality]

speedphreak,like I said, her Outback was all that, and it makes me jealous to even hear you say you have a WTX.
To go into a second correction is never a good idea with any car, and it's not the car's fault when it's systems are designed to EXACTLY execute the commands you give it, and you then unknowingly give the wrong command.
If I had had this experience on my bike before my Mom found out the hard way, I would have taken her out on a deserted road and made her practice not to rush into a second correction, which she still had a tendency to do because she learnt to drive in the early 50's, in big heavy cars with sloshy steering where on certain roads you had to correct constantly.
I would have liked to talk to that Subaru driver, and tell him all this, and not to put his car down.
To tell him that I'm thankful I know what happened know, and thankful that he knew what NOT to do and thereby keeping us both alive.
But I couldn't, so I am telling you guys.
Great car, but watch out for the urge to correct the inevitable drift of an AWD because that will be your second correction, and maybe your last.

[freakray]

So, speed and inattentiveness weren't a factor?

It doesn't matter WHAT car is being driven, if it's put into a slide at excessive speed and over-corrected it's going to bury the front wheel and roll or spin or roll.
Subaru's are inherently safer in this situation due to the balance built into the car design and the low center of gravity but they are not flawless.

As Speedphreak said, you can't blame the car for the accident, your own story already outlines that speed and inattentiveness were the first two contributing factors to the accident.

[fatality]

Hi Ray, the biggest factor was that the road had been freshly tarred with no signs, and was still "sweating" oil on a warm June day, and that is most definitely not Subaru's fault! "Inattentiveness" is not exactly correct either, she DIDN'T KNOW that recovering from a hard correction, the AWD is SUPPOSED to go into a controlled drift, freaked out and yanked on the steering wheel a second time.
I'm really not trying to put down Subarus, I'm saying that in the hands of an inexperienced driver with no mechanical understanding whatsoever, that would be the one thing I would be sure to explain and practice, going into a controlled drift, and let the vehicle recover on its own without panicking and going into a SECOND correction. I'm telling you guys because that's what I clearly saw on my bike, how the temptation to an inexperienced rider to yank on the steering wheel in that situation becomes almost irresistible. All the wheels are turning, but nothing is grabbing, which is great when you know what you're doing, bad if you jump to faulty conclusions and loose your nerve.
My post was only to let you all know the one thing I would tell anyone considering getting an AWD. Not because it's a "problem", it's not, but because it needs to be learnt as something unique to that type of vehicle, just like you'd have to learn to put the hammer down going into a turn with a Corvair or a Porsche or anything RWD/rear engine.
Like the vibrating of the pedal, for instance. I didn't have a one problem with the brakes furiously shaking, just kept my foot on it and just gulped when the car stopped on a dime, perfectly straight, everytime. But to my Mom, having been used to mechanical brakes all her life, this was cause for hesitation and apprehension.
That doesn't mean the kick a** brakes on the Subaru would be "bad", it only means to use caution before you put a car with such a system into the hands of someone who cannot wrap their mind around the fact that when the brake pedal starts to shake, that's not a "defect", that's how it's SUPPOSED to be.
But you have to be able to get that in your head before you start pushing down on the throttle, right?

[freakray]

If it wasn't inattentiveness, how did your Mom manage to wander onto the shoulder?

I understand you're trying to pose a reasonable warning, but you're also refusing to see the bigger picture here.

[fatality]

Ray, of course it was inattentiveness to run onto the shoulder, but what killed her was the second correction. By "second correction" I don't mean "overcorrection", they are two entirely different things with two entirely different sets of problems and solutions.
A "first" correction is when you correct your wheels to put the car where you want it to go, and when you do that you might overcorrect, but you will still slide in the direction of where your car was pointed, all right?
A "second correction" means that the car is still squirly from the first correction, and has not fully recovered yet. There is still energy bound up in the suspension, there is inertia, gravity, and torque on the wheels, all of which is pushing the car in one direction, wherever that direction may be as all these forces are pushing and shoving and pulling the car, slowly coming to an agreement. So if you correct again before the wheels are firmly on the ground, suspension normal and relaxed, that is a second correction. The car will then not slide into the direction you were travelling already, it will instantly begin to spin in whatever direction it happens to loose it, with not a chance of recovery until the car either stops, or is stopped....
Unless, luck would have it and the computer would put all the power on the one wheel that is going into this "new" direction first, and then it's not a lazy spin, but an instantaneous whipping motion.
That's what killled her, not running onto the shoulder with one wheel on a straight stretch of empty road.
She went spinning like a top, no slide to slow her down, and that is why the crash was so violent.

Anybody else want to jump in here and talk about their experiences with second corrections in a Subaru or an Audi, feel free!

[speedphreak]

Overcorrection in any vehicle can send you out of control. I dont care if your driving a Formula1 vehicle! A Subaru did not kill your mother. Like Freakray said...You are missing to see the bigger picture.

-Chris

[fatality]

Actually, the bigger picture is to make someone, anyone aware of a "problem" that is only a problem when you don't know it's there in the first place, much like a freshly tarred road doesn't have to hurt you, and only becomes a problem when there are no markers to let you know you need to slow it down and be careful.
Next time you see a highway trooper, ask him about "second correction". He will immediately know what you are asking, and gladly explain it to you. You have no idea how many people get killed all the time because they didn't catch that one. And in an AWD, that can be especially devastating because through YOUR fault, the computer will do what you are asking it to do, which is putting all the power exactly in all the wrong places at just the wrong time, with the operative word being "YOUR" fault.
Not because you were inattentive, but simply because you didn't know, no one ever told you!
So that's the bigger picture, to save lives, and not to place blame on anyone or anything.

[speedphreak]

Ok, well before you said the Subaru SUV killed....now all the sudden its the persons fault for death. Yeah...well, no shit shirlock! Anyone can lose control of a car and die. Wheather it being AWD, RWD or FWD!!!!!!!!

[freakray]

Originally Posted by fatality

Actually, the bigger picture is to make someone, anyone aware of a "problem" that is only a problem when you don't know it's there in the first place, much like a freshly tarred road doesn't have to hurt you, and only becomes a problem when there are no markers to let you know you need to slow it down and be careful.

That's one of the biggest loads of BS ever typed, saying there were no road markings on fresh pavement caused an accident is the same as saying to a trooper you didn't see a speed limit posted so you assumed you could speed. Tell that one to the judge and see what they tell you.
If your mother did not have the sense to drive according to conditions and pay attention to the enviroment around her, then how is the car to blame?

Originally Posted by fatality

Next time you see a highway trooper, ask him about "second correction". He will immediately know what you are asking, and gladly explain it to you. You have no idea how many people get killed all the time because they didn't catch that one. And in an AWD, that can be especially devastating because through YOUR fault, the computer will do what you are asking it to do, which is putting all the power exactly in all the wrong places at just the wrong time, with the operative word being "YOUR" fault.
Not because you were inattentive, but simply because you didn't know, no one ever told you!
So that's the bigger picture, to save lives, and not to place blame on anyone or anything.

Read your own post!
Your mom lost control of the car.
Your MOM lost control of the car!
The car did not cause your mom to lose control, it merely responded to driver input.
Severe driver error was at fault, not the vehicle design.
The Subaru is one of the safest vehicles on the road by design, but even the safest vehicle can be deadly if the driver makes a mistake.

Deal with it and move on!

[speedphreak]

Freakray, you hit the nail on the head!!! This thread needs to be locked big time!

-Chris