Japan vs American muscle

[DeViL]

Cuz your nazis, you're all nazis!!!! And we beat you twice already, NAZI!

[The CoCoNuT BoY]

well actually i AM half german, so TECHNICALLY i am a nazi. FEAR ME. lol....

[Donham]

Originally posted by DeViL
It was most likely a 455 thats what Oldsmobile and Pontiac used versus Chevy's 454. The 455 I think put out more torque but it had less horsepower, about as low as the LS5 454 (like 380 hp or something I'm not too sure). Don't worry about it I'm just messing with you.

Ok what I want to know is what all in todays technology makes these cars so much faster then the older cars like a 65 GTO? There you got a 3,100 lbs car with like 360 hp and torque to match, and it still only ran low 14's. Versus a 02 Trans Am which has 325, probably more like 330 hp, and 350 lbs of torque, and runs almost 12's. Thats crazy. I know it has a lot better aerodynamics and better wheels, tires for traction, but that can't all be it. Those Trans Ams are also heavier. My 88 weighs 3750 lbs.

I'm no expert on GM or Oldsmobile cars, but I belive the 1970 Olds Cutlas 442, with the W30 455 cid engine had one 4 BBL carb, was rated at 370 hp, weighed like 4200 lbs, with 3.42 gears ran the 1/4 mile in like 13.70's at best, avg times were like 14's and 15's...

The reason a new Ram air Firebird run 12's and is rated at only 325 hp, is because those older muscle cars before 1972 were rated at th dyno with the engine out of (out of car with manifolds on) car compared to newer cars, like all 1972 and newer cars are rated at the rear weels.. you can lose between 45-110 hp NET...
Take that new LS1 engine out of the newer F-body Firebird and that 325 rear weelk hp engine on a engine dyno would achive around 390-400-420 hp..

Also Traction was a big problem in those late 60's card, 500-550 ft lbs or torque all going to waste...
but the time the cars got going, the engines ran out of steam..

I like those old Muscle cars, to me they are not that fast, what they posses is raw ability, with todays technoligy to really make power and fly...

Olds 442's, dodge Chargers, Buick Skylarks were all Heavy cars, the heavy ones of the muscle cars...
a Typical 68-70 Charger with a 440 weighed like 4000 lbs, the 71-74 Charger with same options weighed like 4100-4300 lbs...
Compared to 68-70 Super Bee's, Cornet R/T's, Plymouth Road Runners, Plymouth GTX's, Satlites, Belederes, Cuda's, Challengers all weigh around 3450 to 3800 lbs, 3600 being about avg..
Darts with 340's were around 3000-3100 lbs, with 440's 3200-3300 lbs
Dusters were like 2850 lbs with a 340.. (no options)...

The quickest factory mopar was a 69 Plymouth Raod runner with a 440 6 pick, PURE Stock had ran a best on 12.91 at 111 mph with HARD Stock tires...
just a change of rubber can yeaild mid to low 12's on a good day... start adding mods (minor) and 11's are a piece of cake...


The best cars are the stock Appering drag cars, a drag race class, where your car has to look and sound stock inside and out... these cars (426 hemi's 440's, Chevy 396's, 427's etc run 11's and sound stock too..
The sport is getting more populer and 1000's of poeple are doing it...
They even run crap Red line tires
just imagine if they could run soft compont sticky tires...

Some rich kid in his 20 lbs of boose built to the max Toyota Supra or Skyline would pull beside the guy not knowing the race would not be as easy as he though, when your pulling like crazy 20 lbs of boost and the 34 yr old car just keeps pulling ahead...
8 gigantic pistons craniing up & down is hard to contend with....

scott

[-The Stig-]

Originally posted by The CoCoNuT BoY
well actually i AM half german, so TECHNICALLY i am a nazi. FEAR ME. lol....

I've got more german in me than Hitler... Considering he was Austrian... it does make sense...

But German (and Euro cars in general) are just another car on the road to me.. if its nice i'll admire it... otherwise I just keep cruisin by like a fart in the wind.

[Donham]

Originally posted by The CoCoNuT BoY
well actually i AM half german, so TECHNICALLY i am a nazi. FEAR ME. lol....

Here too, I half German, even had some relatived who served under Hitler, they would tell you they didn't really care foir him..

Germany make some of the best performance cars in the world, the Germans have always been or seemed to be more advanced than the rest of the world..

Look back in WWII times, The Germans made the first real Assault Rifle, they had the deepest diving submarines, They had the strongest tanks, that had a 20:1 kill ratio to the American tanks, the Germans had the first guided missles, it took the USA till the 1950's to achive this and they had to steal the German sceintists to do it..
The Germans were ahead of the USA in Atomic reserch from the 1930's till 1943..
. The Germans had the First operatiional jet aircraft (the Me262-A1) to be in combat at 540 mph, the fastest Spitfire's and P51's at the time could go 440 mph, the fastest German prop plane were even fast, 452 mph for the Me109K, 440 mph for the Fw190 Dora 9, not counting other more rare craft...
The Japs never could even make 400 mph in level flight in WWII, the Ki-84 could achive 386 mph..
The Germans send a Me-262 to help the japs, and they coppied it... but who really designed it?, they never got it into production...

All in all they lost, becauee they was being gang banged by 40 countires, 5-6 of them direct combat.... they had to battle the USA's industrial power...
it's the only nation the USA has been in conflict with in the past 100 years and was at a pretty good technilogical DISADVANTAGE...

They make some real quality, and VERY fast cars.

scott

[Polygon]

Originally posted by SR20DETpower
yeah I've never seen a AWD GTR pick up its front wheels... take a look at some videos of the fastest ones.... the front end picks up a lil bit but the front tires never spin out of control.... the rears might lay out some smoke, but it still accelerates hard. Nothing beats seeing a high HP skyline take off the line hard lol.

I would tend to disagree, but that is just me. I would say that the best launch I have ever seen was a 1970 Dodge Challenger. The car rolled up next to me and was droning out everything else, he was running through straight pipes. He also had a nice 340 badge on the hood. I simply mouthed the words BULL SHIT! He caught my drift and revved his engine. It was sheer beauty watching the car rock from side to side. The light turned green and he left the line like I had floored it in reverse. He seemed to have no problem getting the power down yet managed to leave a little scratch in every gear.

I found him later only to find that the car had a twin supercharged 528 Hemi under the hood. He also had a lot done to lighten it. Not only that but he did some extensive work to make the car handle and was kicking some ass in some SCCA events.

Never count the good old American Muscle car out, they can surprise you. Every car has something about it that it is better at than other cars. You can't make one that will just dominate in every category, it is impossible.

[-The Stig-]

Originally posted by Polygon
You can't make one that will just dominate in every category, it is impossible.

Nuh uhhh... In F&F that Supra could do it allllll!


Gotta love Mopar... Nice story Poly...

[SR20DETpower]

hehe I still think a tuned GTR on a hard launch makes the best looking launches....... I just love the sound of those RB's too.... pure ecstacy.

[2strokebloke]

Originally posted by RACER D12
How come its never Euro vs jap or American you all know were the REAL competition

Because nothing can compare to 1853lbs. & 1300cc of unleashed Yugoslavian built, power!
Interesting though, seeing as how most Japanese companies got their start after WWII by either copying or licensing designs from Europe.
After all, Isuzu built Austin, Hino built Renault, Mitsubishi was the odd one out and built the American designed Henry J.
Honda and Suzuki copied DKW's prewar designs, and Subaru's first attempt's inspiration seems to not have come from any one car, but the 1966 1000 was clearly inspired by the Hansa-Goliath front wheel drive, flat-four powered cars.
And toyota? they just stuck with the classic front engine rear wheel drive layout on all their cars until 1978 with the introduction of the Tercel.

[LjasonL]

I did not read any of this thread, but I would like to say that this argument is retarded. American cars are not "better" than Japanese cars, and vise versa. Cars are cars, and you have to look at them on an individual basis.

[Self]

Originally posted by Donham

The reason a new Ram air Firebird run 12's and is rated at only 325 hp, is because those older muscle cars before 1972 were rated at th dyno with the engine out of (out of car with manifolds on) car compared to newer cars, like all 1972 and newer cars are rated at the rear weels.. you can lose between 45-110 hp NET...
Take that new LS1 engine out of the newer F-body Firebird and that 325 rear weelk hp engine on a engine dyno would achive around 390-400-420 hp..

Just so you know...That's wrong. Cars are still rated at the flywheel, not the rear wheels. A new LS1 will dyno at a ~305 - 310 rear wheel HP. That is not,
however, because the power ratings given are already taken at the rear wheels, it is because the cars are undrrated so as to make the Corvette more impressive.

[-The Stig-]

Originally posted by Self


Just so you know...That's wrong. Cars are still rated at the flywheel, not the rear wheels. A new LS1 will dyno at a ~305 - 310 rear wheel HP. That is not,
however, because the power ratings given are already taken at the rear wheels, it is because the cars are undrrated so as to make the Corvette more impressive.

Word.

[DblOvrhedCamron]

Originally posted by RACER D12
How come its never Euro vs jap or American you all know were the REAL competition

in your sig it says no V-Tec here (VTEC) When in actuality the car in your sig has a copy of VTEC and half of the motor is based around japanese engineering? Just an observation.....what gives? Oh yea and Ford blows / chevy rains supreme.

[DblOvrhedCamron]

Originally posted by DeViL
Cuz your nazis, you're all nazis!!!! And we beat you twice already, NAZI!

3 times if you count the corvette.
first war, second war, production of the chevy.

[NSX-R-SSJ20K]

yea 1000hp skylines launching from a stop sound mental and they Just haul ass.

I'm so impressed o well they'd suck on a touge tho. :o