Bugatti Veyron 16.4 vs Cadillac Sixteen

[FYRHWK1]

Impressive transmission, but it read this...

The all-new DSG transmission is a race bred system that has now been developed for street applications. Used back in the 1980's in Audi's Sport Quattro S1 racers

So the bugattis transmission is just a 1980's model with an extra gear? not that theres anything wrong with it but how could that possibly be considered technologically advanced?

The President uses a system that shuts down a cylinder row if any iregularitys is detected, and I remember reading about a company that made a ecu program that would do that if the driver wanted.

OK so nissan DOESN'T make a car with DOD, all i needed to hear.

Thats an impressive dyno, i can't help but ask what fuel they were running but i'm sure that car is fast regardless. And a headgasket & waterpump problem isn't unreliable? hell people claim cavaliers with jsut alternator problems are unreliable, headgasket to me is a pretty big problem.

I stand corrected, I thought the Bugatti was much larger then that.

You said

That car costed $400k in 1988, around $500k today. That's a lot of money for a car that's only capable of going fast.

The car didn't really cost that much, it would be $400K to reproduce to a consumer but yes, thats far too much money, and it appeared to me as if "only capable of going fast" meant you belived it could only go fast, the car has good handling characteristics.

Audi has done well, and the R8s sucess was due quite a bit to its fuel economy but i cant take anything from the car, it is a good performer, however everyone knows the driver plays the largest part, it seems Audis drivers were better then cadillacs.

I'm aware I cant pick a cars aerodynamic ability out by eye, but looking at its shape and comparing it to what i know, i'm GUESSING it would have decent performance at least.

you can plant your foot into and out of a corner, as well as not have to worry about braking as much b/c you have more traction when the weight transfers... i could go on...

Please don't, you're still not making any sense. plant your foot into a turn? how much track time have you had? you don't enter a turn at full throttle, you dont even exit a turn at full throttle even WITH AWD because the weight transfer will pull traction from your front wheel, add in the engines power turning them and you get understeer.

weight transfers? why don't you explain how having AWD helps weight transfer towards the rear of the car? you don't have to brake as much? AWD makes your car heavier, in all cases, a heavier car requires more braking to slow it down for a turn.
AWD does not offer increased lateral traction, it only aids you when you are applying throttle, I dont see where you could possibly come up with the car being able o brake less due to being heavier and connecting that with AWD. . .

especially when compared in that class... if you want to compare a vette to an s4, the s4 is still going to handle better... if left stock.
back to the speed gt series... where the awd s4 dominated the vettes, vipers, and all the other cars... hmm....

lol, first off, claiming the S4 handles better then the Corvette means that the S4 also handles better then a 911 turbo and 360 modena, I'll just let you chew on that.
Second the S4 won because f its driver, in 2000 the S4 lost to a RWD M3, why? DRIVER, what aren't you understanding about this? In the 2001 standings the S4 is ahead of numberous 911s, C5s, saleen SR's and M3's, why? the driver of the S4 is great, the same reason the S4 lost in 2000, the driver wasn't as good as the other.

on a road course... the awd skyline will outhandle the rwd, mainly b/c it has more grip. more grip means better handling... i'm sure i'm leaving something else out, but they're interrelated.

And again, you're wrong, the AWD skyline does not have more "grip" it has more traction when you begin to add power, the AWD car will not go AROUND a turn faster, it will enter slower then the RWD car and it MIGHT exit faster, and thats a big if. IF the driver of the RWD skyline can handle driving with some oversteer he can likely exit the turn just as fast, as well as take the entry & mid turn faster. This is just speculation though, about the skylines anyway.

[Scott 02]

Just because something looks aerodynamic does not mean it is. I have seen cars that don't that have zero drag and I have seen cars that look like they are that aren't at all.

Aerdynamic's is an important thing when you get in the 100mph speed.
Right about something that looks aero dosn't mean its good through the wind. My opinion sees that the Cadillac is more aerodynamic than the Veyron. The Cadillac sits low and has great wheel base to keep it stable. The Veyron has shorter wheel base and that would make it a chore to drive in the 200mph+ range.

[flylwsi]

i realize now that the argument is a big waste of my time. if i don't write the entire book, you're going to assume i don't know anything.

if you want the break down, send me an email or we can talk about what i'm talking about. there's alot that i've seen/heard/done, and i'm compiling a great deal of that into a small ass post here.

considering the drivers in the speed gt championship are on a very equal plane in my eyes, i'm not going to hand it all to the driver. end of story.


you don't read much. i never said that awd had to do with weight transfer. ever. having it is a benefit when the weight does transfer, as you are putting weight onto wheels that drive, all the time, which helps increase traction.

i'll break everything into much smaller pieces, as the generalized statements are being eaten alive by people looking to take everything i'm saying as completely literal.

i've had more than enough time in both fwd, rwd, and awd cars on twisty roads and tracks. i appreciate the doubt.

and on the skyline... i never said it would go into/out of a corner faster or anything like that. i did say that it would be quicker in general (time) than a rwd skyline... (this is if the two cars are comparably equipped of course). and i understand that some oversteer can make the car quicker... (rwd)

have you driven an s4? have you driven a vette? have you compared them on a really twisty road where oversteer isn't an option?

the s4 vs m3 debate has been had, and it's a virtual tie, provided you compare equal years of the two cars. it all depends on your preference and how you want your car to react to throttle input.

[flylwsi]

i'm sure it's posted in this thread, but what's the two wheelbases?

and since when does a short wheelbase mean that you'll handle poorly at high speed?

the veyron has a lot of wind tunnel testing, aerodynamic aids, and really grippy big tires that are going to aid in the control at high speed...

the bugatti eb110 didn't have an exceptionally long whl base, and it could hit 200. i'm not saying that it doesn't matter, but i'm pretty sure the aerodynamics of the car have been adjusted to factor out the wheelbase...

[Scott 02]

I would like to ask the guy who did the speed test in it and get is opinion how it drove.

[flylwsi]

what's the wheelbase of a mclaren f1, or an enzo, or a diablo, or a murcielago...

what kind of aero aids do they have in comparison to the veyron...

i'm sure 200 is a bit scary in any case...

i'd like to see how much downforce these cars have, as well as wheelbases, to get a good comparo...

[Deakins]

Originally posted by FYRHWK1
So the bugattis transmission is just a 1980's model with an extra gear? not that theres anything wrong with it but how could that possibly be considered technologically advanced?

No, the S1's transmission was a machanically controlled unit, this is electronically controlled. The dual clutch concept dates back to the 80's but so does the quattro system. Compared to a typical american slush-box, both this and the CVT transmission is technologycally superior, as well as economy and performance goes too.

Thats an impressive dyno, i can't help but ask what fuel they were running but i'm sure that car is fast regardless. And a headgasket & waterpump problem isn't unreliable? hell people claim cavaliers with jsut alternator problems are unreliable, headgasket to me is a pretty big problem.

Normal fuel, stock block.
Volkswagen fixed the problem years ago, and the dealers are aware of it, and will fix it cost free. The only truly unreliable VW engine was the early 1.8 16v engines.

The car didn't really cost that much, it would be $400K to reproduce to a consumer but yes, thats far too much money, and it appeared to me as if "only capable of going fast" meant you belived it could only go fast, the car has good handling characteristics.

I stand by my comment, it's fast, but it's still just a Corvette.

Audi has done well, and the R8s sucess was due quite a bit to its fuel economy but i cant take anything from the car, it is a good performer, however everyone knows the driver plays the largest part, it seems Audis drivers were better then cadillacs.

[VAG Biased] So it was the drivers fault the car catched on fire?
Sorry, but Cadillac walked away with their tails between their legs, Audi drove of into the sunshine knowing they can do everything they set their mind to.[/VAG Biased]

[flylwsi]

the drivers in the le mans races are top caliber in near every car.

there's alot of "it's the driver, not the car" here...

put the same drivers in the cadi, and it probably still wouldn't have finished the races, or any better than they did...

and cadi had some phenomenal drivers in their lineup...

[FYRHWK1]

yes yes, GM likes setting engines on fire, seems the same one who designed the fiero worked on the cadillac, that effort was neutered from the start, i'm sure they would've done better with some real support.

Caddy had exceptional drivers? they're all the same? sure buddy, tell me who were the sucessful Cadillac drivers? you're still stuck on the fact AWD give better handling, i'll wait for you to wake up from that to worry about your take on lemans drivers.

[flylwsi]

i don't know quite what's up your ass. stuck?

read my post. if you can't understand what i'm saying. get over it.

i'm too lazy to find out who cadi had, but they weren't a bunch of nobodies.

hell... just to please you, i'll find out who it was.


also... you note the lack of support... which is based on the cars, which audi had tons of support for. so... audi had a much higher chance of winning just based on the advancements of the cars and the high level of support (money) and the ability of the pit crews to work amazingly quickly.

that's not the driver, is it?

[flylwsi]

6 TEAM CADILLAC CADILLAC LM P 900 Taylor W. (US) Angelelli M. (IT) Tinseau CH. (FR)
7 TEAM CADILLAC CADILLAC LM P 900 Bernard E. (FR) Collard E. (FR) Lehto J.J. (SF)
that's their line up...

from 2002... a nice collection of drivers. jj lehto being the highlight, and the one i'm most familiar with.

i'll leave it up to you to choose whether their drivers were competent or not.

[flylwsi]

one more note...

the track record at japan's tsukuba race track is held by an awd car, not a rear driver... and i'm not going to say that awd is better in any sense... but i am pointing out areas that it's been known to be of quite high competence, as you seem to think it has no place

http://overboost.com/story.asp?id=1019

[Moppie]

Handling implies the ablity to quickly change direction and handle weight transfer while comunicating and accepting control imputs from the driver.

Grip or road holding is simply how much stick the car has to the road.
How many Gs it can build up or how fast it go around a constant radius corner.


Its quite possible and infact quite common for a car to have one with out the other.

[FYRHWK1]

lol, competent? i'm sure they were very capale drivers, they just werent up to par with the rest and had failures, the cars chassis and suspension ( the most important part) was not a GM design but a modified riley & scott MKIII. the powertrain was a 4L GM V8 which has already proven to be an exceptional motor in IRL and is known in the real world to be a good engine as well.
So, if the chassis is one that has been used to win in many cases, and the engine is proven to be solid (albeit having technicaldifficulties in a few cases) what else COULD it be but dirver? yes they're top caliber, and some seem to drive their cars better then others.

can't understand? i understand your beliefs on AWD give it increased handling which isn't the case, I also understand you believe the S4 to be capable of handling with a Corvette, due to it's AWD system, and the audi TT being able to handle a track as well as the 3 series due to AWD, and so on. . . believe me I understand, which is why I disagree with you.

[Neutrino]

Originally posted by Moppie
Handling implies the ablity to quickly change direction and handle weight transfer while comunicating and accepting control imputs from the driver.

Grip or road holding is simply how much stick the car has to the road.
How many Gs it can build up or how fast it go around a constant radius corner.


Its quite possible and infact quite common for a car to have one with out the other.

Thank you for pointing that out Moppie. Too many people are tossing out skidpad numbers like that is the only thing that matters in handling.