2001 Cent *cold* slips in R and thunks ONCE into 1st

[filipg]

I did my homework, I got no symptoms from "2000 Century Harsh Shifting when warm" thread. My problem is ONLY when I start it cold; especially after 1-2 days standing.

Car has only 23K (!!!) and I drive like a "geezer" (my wife is easily car-sick). Hence #2 :-)

1) For now (?) *sometimes* after standing for a weekend, when I shift into R, I get a delayed clunk (normal) and then it backs up BUT sometimes will "seize" (ie. car halts abruptly, adding gas feels like I have parking brake on, shifting R-D-R lets me finish R movement). If this happens, shifting into P or N will get growling/grinding noises different from the TSB (in #4). So now I park such that no R needed on Mondays. HAHA :)

2) Every morning, I drive 10-20MPH for ~1/2 mile before I have to merge onto a local highway. There, I feel a "thunk" as "something" "seats" as I accelerate to ~60MPH. From that point on, for the rest of the day, PERFECT. There is a second way to evoke this symptom:

2.1) When car is cold, putting on the parking brake and shifting to R or D and applying gas gradually will eventually result in a "growling" noise like slipping clutches - I can tell the tranny is slipping as the "load" decreases. The "clunk" on hard acceleration (#2 above) "fixes" this and there is no growl/slip thereafter. Until next morning, that is.

Question #1: I was told that I'll need $2000 tranny job. With that option, I got AAA and will drive it until I need a tow. My gut is saying this is stupid. The "engineer" inside is saying this is a viable option. What do you say? What's the damage to my wallet now v.s. later?

Question #2: I see a TSB 03-07-30-017 (grinding noise/no movement in D or R) for this car. Is this eventually the problem and if so, "How long have I got, Doc?"

Question #3: Is reading the DTC's $99, as the Buick dealer tells me?

Question #4: Which dealer in PGH area is reliable/reputable? I'm on the road any my experience has so far been with the Princeton NJ dealer - rather shady, IMHO. Refused to acknowledge the "growling while in P on incline"... not a good start... sigh. I think I can make it to PGH.

Question #5: Is a dealer better or is an independent repair shop better? I've seen enough flames/praise for from both camps but I want your opinion! :)

Thank you,
Fil

P.S. Paid $8K for it with 16K mi. Previous car was a 92 Saturn SL2. I like hearing the engine and feeling the bumps... wife said "no". Sigh :)

[GTP Dad]

I would agree that you are going to need a transmission job and it will probably will cost in the $2K range. However, it will not cost any more later than it will now. The TSB usually indicates that there is a problem and suggests a fix but it will only be covered by the dealer if the warranty is in effect or if there is a formal recall. The $99 to read the codes seems a little high. I would go to AAMCO or another chain to have it scanned. Personally I have had AAMCO rebuild two transmissions for me and have never had a problem with their price or service. I really don't like dealers since their service is too expensive for the amount of work they usually do and they only seem to want to replace parts. As for your problem, I would try to correct it by changing fluid and filter and adding either Lucas Oil transmission additive or SeaFoam transmission additive to the fluid. There have been a lot of cases where this cures the problem without needing a rebuild. Good Luck!

[filipg]

Thank you for responding so quickly. I have set aside $2k in a money-market account :-) (really :-)

Would you take it to AAMCO to do the fluid+filter?

I presume that if I wait until something really starts acting up, the rebuilder (AAMCO) will change all the clutches as part of the rebuild? Or do they leave any "wearing" parts in? I presume that they also clean it out to flush any additives?

Please pardon my transmission-ignorance.

Cheers,
Fil

[GTP Dad]

AAMCO is a full service shop and can do the change for you. If they rebuild the transmission they will replace the worn parts and flush everything. The transmission will be as good as new when you get it back and should have at least a 1 year warranty on the transmission. I have them rebuild two transmissions for me and have had no problems with either vehicle. One I traded after putting an additional 32k miles on the odometer and I am still driving the other one. Good Luck!

[filipg]

Hmmm... I'll do the filter+fluid there, then. I do have one last question: I'm not sure I WANT it to be "like new" because my car only has 23,000 miles (i.e., basically "new") and it's having problems. I was under the impression that dealer (via the TSB) could install a redesigned part so that this would not happen again - assuming that a transmission acting up at 23K miles is NOT normal and a design flaw. If this is the case - I hear about a new valve body on the boards here - can AAMCO get that part or will they "fix it" by replacing parts until it's like "original" and I'll have the same problem at +23K miles?

Cheers,
Fil

[GTP Dad]

Yes, AAMCO will repair it to the new specs. I would check with them first to insure they know about the changes to the design. If they don't then contact the dealer for a tranny with the changes and have it replaced by them, I expect the cost will be about the same. When I said it would be like new I meant that it would work like a brand new one without any problems.

Regards,
GTP Dad

[filipg]

Well, too late for the filter change. Drove to wife's office without any signs of problems (I'm an EE and even the smallest noises and pauses drive me nuts). On way back,
with wife, started car and backed out... then shifted to drive, then someone blocked my way out so I shifted into R and that was it. Except it never found R. All I have is DRIVE - no matter what the shifter says. I could prolly push it out but it even starts in DRIVE.

AAA is on its way... and it will take it to the dealer... 5.6 miles away. Closest Aamco is somewhat further and since I'm not in a position to "ask questions"... I picked dealer. Wish me luck :-(

Cheers,
Fil

Dead tranny at 23K miles. That's a record for me. I had a 87 Camry that needed one at 128K - after
it was "joy ridden" after being stolen. I'm still somewhat happy with my buick, but this will definitely put a dent in the chances of another GM purchase. I'm "easy" though, it if it works dandy for next 30-40K miles, I might forgive it :-)

It's 12AM and at least it had the heart to die right next to the office :-)

[filipg]

Well, not so fast. AAA's computers were down and they did get me towed until ~2AM. Instead of waiting for 2nd guy, I opted to call campus security and get a ride home and mark the car as "don't bother me". I called the dealer and they want 3,500 BEFORE TAX. Seems they don't do R&R - they only replace with a 2,700$ prebuilt.
Hmmm... You say aamco is 17 miles away? I'll call them - it says "towing with service" so I might as well. I guess I can get a ride when they're done.

The saga continues. We had a nice 45 minute walk this morning. It's spring! The cherries are in bloom. Pretty. Kept me from hating GM all they way to the office :-)

Cheers,
Fil

[filipg]

Well, it should be at the AAMCO shop by now. The flat-bed came and took it away. The dealer seems to be as shady and evasive as he was in person... I hope you're right (GTP Dad) and AAMCO is better.

Expecting their call,
Fil

[filipg]

Ok news:

$480 to take it out and put it back in - in case I want to abort the repair.

$1295 (with cupon, whee) to do the R&R + parts. I made him promise me that the tech will read the applicable TSB's before ordering parts. If anyone has any specific redesigned part #'s I would appreciate it.

Thanks for your help,
Fil

[GTP Dad]

That sounds about right for what is being done. The last one they did for me out of a Grand Prix GTP 4T65E cost $2400. The gave me a three year warranty on it though. Hope everything works out for you as it sounds like this transmission was bad from the start. Good Luck!

[filipg]

Update. They gave me the list of parts that need replacement. I hounded them about the TSB's and to see which other parts are listed - I'd rather not have issues even if it's covered by warranty my life would still be a mess for 4-5 days (like now).

The total so far is $2400 - 10% + tax (6%) = ~2400 with 1yr/12k mi warranty. The 3yr/36k mi is an extra $400. Considering this is the common complaint for this model, I'll gladly pay it. Last thing I need is another $2500 before I sell it. But I do want to keep it for another 1-2 yrs.

Other than this, it's a very nice car. Kinda like that joke: "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" :-)

Cheers,
Fil

[GTP Dad]

Have you gotten the car back yet? If so how does it run? Hopefully they got everything fixed and you are now experiencing a fun driving experience!

Regards,
GTP Dad

[filipg]

Nope - it's due to be done Wed. Hmm, their princes must have gone up since you had yours done. The R&R total comes to 2,479.10 with tax for the 1yr/12k miles warranty. The 3yr/36K is another $399.

Is it worth it? I ask because after nagging them a bit I found out that they were using sonnex TCC valve/sleeve (and not something else, thank goodness, see: http://www.transbuilder.com/tour/4L60E.html)

And this was entirely the original source of the problem -> which led to destruction of tranny because the 'apply' pressure was all wrong and clutches were slipping. So, I wonder if I need the longer warranty.

I read that most other shops do the Sonnex TCC and also replace the valve plate - which AAMCO is not doing for me (just the valve). This would be the only reason I would justify the extra $400. See:
http://www.cartrackers.com/Forums/li...Lemon/160.html

The parts list is: (qty, what, and rounded price)
1 Assembly set - rebuilder kit $160
1 Filter $19
2 Band - F & R $50
13.4 Fluid $46
8 Labor R&R $480
10.5 Labor R $630
1 Torque Converter $380
1 Bushing & washer kit $36
1 Solenoid Pack $200
2 Planet assemblies $160
1 sun shell $80
1 oil pan (why?) $45
1 bearing & hub $30
1 tubine sensor $33
1 tcc valve (sonnex) $44
1 4th clutch switch $16
1 manifold pressure switch $25

I give this list for (many of) those who follow me and want to know what the repair shop will likely replace for my symptoms.

So, 1 question: on a scale of 1 to 100, what are the chances that there is a 2nd design/manufacturing flaw that will kill me after the 1yr/12mo warranty runs out if I plan to keep the car 1-2 years? :-)

Cheers,
Fil

P.S. Of course, there will be a webpage with all the gory details eventually. I'll see if they cough up the bad components - especially the TCC value and sleeve. I want pictures :-) I also see why GM can't risk a recall even if they KNOW this is a flaw. This could very well kill their stock price... at a time they can't afford it.

[filipg]

One more stupid question - can the valve body be accessed without removing the tranny? (i.e., just by dropping the pan)

I wonder what recourse people with low milage have when you can be pretty sure that most of the 4T65E's will die prematurely. If it was possible to just drop the pan and replace the culprit (I understand that if it's been slipping for a while, other parts are toast and it will need R&R).

Cheers,
Fil