HYUNDAI cars are WORTHLESS!

Dear readers and internet surfers. You probably visit this Thread because you are interested to buy a Hyundai car. It's important to read slowly the whole Thread to understand why Hyundai is Worthless and not worthing the money you give. :boink: You can also vote in the Poll that have in the top of the first page. The subscription is free, quick and easy. But if you have not time to read the whole Thread, I suggest you to read only the comments #1, #61 (in page 5) and #79 (in page 6). Comment's number is in the top and in the right of every comment.
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I will tell you something from my experience. I own a HYUNDAI Accent from 1998 and have only 92.000 klms (that would be about 65.000 miles). I also -and always- drive "gently". I don't drive fast, I don't accelerate strong, I don't go above 90 klms (70 miles) per hour because I want to have fuel economy.
HYUNDAI cars generally may be cheap to buy, seems to have enough good technical specifications and they're good looking. But I believe its not worth because:
a) it has poor construction quality,
b) it appears often mechanical and electrical malfunctions,
c) the fuel consumption usually is bigger than this described by its book,
d) it has expensive genuine parts so an EXPENSIVE SERVICE and maintenance cost in the long term,
e) it burns lots of oils inside its engine (so, I have to carry always Oil with me). The cost to fix it is very big.
f) when I drive I hear sounds and “cracks” from the main body and the plastics of the car (what a quality?!?!?).
g) often, when I catch the door from the outside metal surface, there is static electricity that shocks me (its very unpleasant).

In the long term, I EXPERIENCED ALL THESE PROBLEMS. My opinion is absolutely NEGATIVE for HYUNDAI generally. :headshake When I will have to replace my car, I will not buy a HYUNDAI again (not only Accent, I mean any HYUNDAI). That's for sure! Don't make the same mistake I made. It's wasted money. The money that you earn by working hard.

The proof that I am objective is that I can tell you something that I like in my Accent: it has a strong Air Condition (stronger comparable to other brands cars) that is useful to hot Greek Summers and till now, it has only some tiny rusts, not something important (at least in the places that I can see).

If HYUNDAI had quality, it would have it in 1998 and today (as a principle). Often, the quality is better when someone has an older model, because every car industry by the pressure of lower cost, reduce the quality year by year. In the other hand, when a car factory is new in the game (as HYUNDAI was in 1998) makes better products because the Industry is not known (famous) and want to have costumers. As the years passing, they reduce the quality because they gain fans. Fans have no brain. They want tell you the truth: they are fans. :loser: So, do not take HYUNDAI.
Take any car, but first search the Internet for the owners opinions, reviews, problems etc.

And because some guys say that Hyundai may be had low quality at 1998 but nowadays make improvements and has good quality anymore, I will say to them that:
If HYUNDAI had done improvments in the quality of its cars at the last decade, then why the resale value of Hyundai cars is still very low? Anybody can say anything. I say that Hyundai cars are not worthing, someone else says they worth. How someone can know who is true? I will tell you. The resale value of the cars balances by demand and supply. Someone finds the resale value at the secondary cars market. The whole market is formulating by demand and supply. We have all the Hyundai's owners and all the possible buyers. If we consider that demand is stable, we have the unstable factor "supply". The resale value is very low. WHY? Because the total of the already Hyundai owners are not sutisfied with their Hyundais and so, they want to sell their "good" cars and accept the low value that the buyers of the secondary market give them. Otherwise we can not have a low resale market value. The whole market shout to us that "Hyundai are not good cars". :runaround: That's why they don't have good resale value. If they were good cars (today, not in 1998), their owners would appreciated and they wan't like to sell them. If they wouldn't like to sell them, the supply of used Hyundais would be small and... magically... the Hyundais would have better resale value. And we are speaking for today, not 1998.

---> Look always for negative opinions. Because those that have negative opinions they have nothing to gain from that. I just tell you that Hyundai doesn't make good cars and I win nothing from that. If someone tells you a positive opinion, maybe, I just say may be, have something to gain. May be is working for Hyundai, may be he is trying to sell a Hyundai, may be wants to justify his choise of Hyundai and wants to feel nice... Conlusion: Negative opinions worth more from positives.

---> As for all these top positionigs and awards from some organizations to Hyuandais, that some guys tell us, I simply discredit them. How do I know that they are real tests and these organizations have nothing to gain, even if they are "non-profit"??? (advertisements, hidden payments, pay offs etc).

So, my opinion: Hyundai didn't have quality at the old days (1998) that noone knew that korean automaker. Now, Hyundai makes cheap cars, that seems good. But they are not. If they hadn't quality yesterday, they will have not tomorrow. It'a a matter of principle. Or you have or you have not... As I said before, today they have fans (= no brain) that willing to follow them (because Hyundais are cheap, seems good and they're good looking). And if you have today any car of any brand, new, it will be in a good condition for 5-6 years. What happens after that? That is the Question. I believe that Hyundai they weren't and they aren't good cars for someone that wants a car for 10-15 years, as a usefull tool and not for a "toy" and short term period of 4-5 years.
Finally even I have not drive a KIA, I believe that they are the same bad cars as Hyundais and the reason for that is that HYUNDAI and KIA are the same Group. So, and because Quality is a matter of principle, I'm sure that as Hyundai doesn't have, so and KIA. So be carefull!!! Away from them!

I can't believe your basing your opinion on Hyundai on a 10, possibly 11 year old car. No matter how many miles, things deteriorate over time, which can cause issues, some of which you have ranted about. Some of your points are pointless to. The price of parts, probably not Hyundai's fault. More than likely an issue with Greece and Korea's governments, and whatever taxes they decide to impose on the parts. I sell parts all over the world, and quite a bit to Canada. You can't tell me that Hyundai is ripping the people in Canada off by charging them $25 for an oil filter, while their neighbors to the south, (US), can get one for $6. Here in the US, Honda and Toyota are expensive parts. Trust me, I have owned a Honda Accord, currently own a Toyota Camry, and a Hyundai Sonata. And by far the Sonata was the best one. I put 100k miles on an '03 Sonata within 3 years, without a single issue, other than chrome peeling off the inside door handles. The wife then wanted to trade it in for something bigger, so I now have an '06 GMC Envoy that sits in the garage collecting dust. The Accord and Camry I've owned, with the same mileage, I have spent thousands of dollars on to keep in the same mechanical condition as the Hyundai. Even with 100k miles, I'd take the Sonata cross country if I need to, not the Accord or Camry. What good was your rant. I'm sorry, not many people are going to base there purchase decision of a new car based off the opinion of an owner with a 10 year old car. Hyundai has come leaps and bounds over the past few years. I have been with them for 6 years now, and can tell a huge difference. Take a look at the amount of warranty work we do. Our warranty dollars are 1/3rd of what they were 5 years ago, and there are a ton more Hyundai's on the road now than there were 5 years ago. Those numbers speak for themselves. If you want to rant, go to a Toyota or Honda forum, I'm sure they'd love to hear your opinion while they think their car is the god of all cars. With the amount of money I have spent on all the cars I've owned through the years, I would never buy another Honda or Toyota. If the Camry I own now wasn't free, I would have never bought it. It was owned by my in-laws, old people, didn't drive much, always maintained it, but things were still breaking all the time on it.

Fistly, thanks for your answer.
So as you said, you believe that my opinion is wrong because I own a 1998 Hyundai. So you mean that the todays hyundais are good cars with quality.
I will say the same that I wrote before:
Logically, any car industry (let's say Hyundai) if it had quality, it would have it in 1998 and today (as a matter of principle). Often, the quality is better when someone has an older model, because every car industry by the pressure of lower cost, reduce the quality year by year. So, older cars = better cars. In the other hand, when a car factory is new in the game (as HYUNDAI was in 1998) makes better products because the Industry is not known (famous) and want to have costumers. As the years passing, they reduce the quality because they gain fans. Fans have no brain and they buy cars anyway, by the colour, the design, the technical specifications. You can not see the quality when you buy a car. To see the quality, must pass a lot of time, like 6 at least years. Nowadays, any car industry have the minimum of quality they need for its cars, to last 5 or 6 years. Do I need this? The minimum of quality? No!
I give my money and I want a high quality car, not medium, not low. I am not strange. I am not asking for a perfect car. But sure, I am asking for a quality, above medium. And I don't think so that Hyundais have this -above medium- quality.
The problems I experienced at the decade that I own Accent, are not normal. Moreover, they are not normal because the service of Hyundai in my country is really expensive and most of all is more expensive than other, more prestigeus brands (OPEL, HONDA, etc). And even if the high cost of service is a theme of the Greek Authorised Dealer, the Hondai Motor Company must have an opinion and a power over it. Because if you are not agree with me on this, then for you is logical Hyundai Motors to sell globally cars of low cost and then the Dealers in every country to retain high cost of auto parts and work, so the Hyundai owners to have a high (in absolute number and comparable to other brands) maintenance cost over the years.
Is it OK with you? And Hyundai Motors have nothing to do with this? Because for me it's not OK. It doesn't seems to me logical. To have the dealers to destroy (with their high costs) the image that Hyundai Motors tries to build globally.
And the high cost of the parts, it can't be a matter between Greece's and Korea's governments as you said, because I say again, auto parts from other brands and countries are cheaper (even if they are from more prestigeus brands, from countries like Japan or Germany). So the between countries agreements and the taxes that imposed, IS NOT A EXCUSE.

Furthermore, why you discredit a car (take any car, not only Hyundai Accent) when it's 10 years old? Because you are saying that I am basing my opinion on a 10 or 11 years old car. Yes, it's true! I am basing my opinion on my 10 years old car. What's wrong with that? What different you believe that I woul'd have done? To base my opinion on 3 or 4 years? That woul'd be rediculοus. As I said before, any car industry has the minimum quality for its cars to last 4 or 5 years. I don't need this car industry with the minimum quality! If a car industry has quality products, that will be tested and checked, only in the long term. Long term is 10 or 15 years, not 5 or 6.

And let's say that Hyundai in 1998 hadn't so good quality but now improved its cars and has above medium, enough good quality. If this was true, then how do you explain the low resale value? I mean today, no at 1998.

As I said to my firt presentation, the whole secondary market of used cars tell us that "HYUNDAI are not quality cars!". Let's speak clear and simple with two equations:

My equation:

Hyundais Low Quality + unhappy users on the long term = increased supply of hyundai cars = Low Resale Value

Your's equation:

Hyundais High Qulity + happy users on the long term = decreased supply of hyundai cars = Low Resale Value ????

How it comes??? I really don't understand. :confused: Can you explain this to me, please?

Finally, how can I know that these that you told that you also own a Toyota and a Honda, and you find the Hyundai better than those japanese cars? How can I know that you are telling the truth? I have no interest (I can not have) by telling you "NOT BUY HYUNDAI". I don't gain something from it. You might say this only because you want to protect your interests. As you said you sell auto parts. How can I know that you are not selling Hyundais Auto parts, so your interests are Hyundai to have prestige and you are trying to help on this issue. (regardless that they have not prestige. Think... low resale value = low reputation of Hyundai in the whole market).

And remember... I don't say to people that read us "buy the X brand", I only say "Don't buy HYUNDAI cars, because they are worthless". Buy whatever you want, it's your problem. I only warn them for Hyundais, because noone finds money free in the streets.

[FONT=Arial]So as you said, you believe that my opinion is wrong because I own a 1998 Hyundai. So you mean that the todays hyundais are good cars with quality.
I will say the same that I wrote before:
Logically, any car industry (let's say Hyundai) if it had quality, it would have it in 1998 and today (as a matter of principle). Often, the quality is better when someone has an older model, because every car industry by the pressure of lower cost, reduce the quality year by year. So, older cars = better cars. In the other hand, when a car factory is new in the game (as HYUNDAI was in 1998) makes better products because the Industry is not known (famous) and want to have costumers. As the years passing, they reduce the quality because they gain fans. Fans have no brain and they buy cars anyway, by the colour, the design, the technical specifications. You can not see the quality when you buy a car. To see the quality, must pass a lot of time, like 6 at least years.
That logic cannot be more wrong. So you are saying Hyundai's quality was as good back when they first started out than it is today? Hyundai's quality back in the day did suck. I have a tech that has been working on Hyundai's since the mid-90s. He used to have to push cars off the transporter, because they would have junk transmissions before they even made it to the dealer lot. And this wasn't a one time thing, he said it happened all the time. So these cars are of better quality than they are today? HA That why JD Powers does an initial quality survey, to see how many issues the customer has with their new car within the first 90 days of ownership, and Hyundai is always up there in the top 5. Back then, Hyundai used a lot of other peoples technology. A lot of engines borrowed from Chrysler and Mitsubishi. Now those companies are looking to Hyundai for their designs. I have a customer with a 2001 Elantra with almost 300k miles on it, almost all of it delivering newspapers. Only thing he has had to replace is maintenance parts, brakes, and maybe a wheel bearing here and there. Few weeks ago he was even commenting that he was still on the original alternator and starter. That car is 7 years old now, and I can say I've never seen an 87 Excel with that many miles. When Honda first started making cars, their quality wasn't up to par either. So were their cars from the 70s of higher quality than todays cars? By your logic, that would be the case. Hyundai's resale value is low because they are still trying to break the image of their cars from the past. There is also quite a large amount of Hyundai rentals. This floods the used car market with 1 or 2 year old cars with 30k miles that are selling for cheap because the rental companies are willing the sell them cheap when they are done with them. You see very few Honda or Toyotal rentals out there. Avis, Budget, Enterprise, Hertz, they all buy parts from me for their cars that they wreck. Avis and Hertz are my two largest customer. Avis along, just at the Indianapols location just took deliver of 219 new Hyundais ready to be put into service. These 200 cars will all of a sudden hit the used car segmant in another year. This is also the reason GM has drastically reduced the number of cars they sell to rental companies. They are wanting to increase the value of their used cars.
[FONT=Arial]The problems I experienced at the decade that I own Accent, are not normal[/U]. Moreover, they are not normal because the service of Hyundai in my country is really expensive and most of all is more expensive than other, more prestigeus brands (OPEL, HONDA, etc). And even if the high cost of service is a theme of the Greek Authorised Dealer, the Hondai Motor Company must have an opinion and a power over it. Because if you are not agree with me on this, then for you is logical Hyundai Motors to sell globally cars of low cost and then the Dealers in every country to retain high cost of auto parts and work, so the Hyundai owners to have a high (in absolute number and comparable to other brands) maintenance cost over the years.
Is it OK with you? And Hyundai Motors have nothing to do with this? Because for me it's not OK. It doesn't seems to me logical. To have the dealers to destroy (with their high costs) the image that Hyundai Motors tries to build globally.
And the high cost of the parts, it can't be a matter between Greece's and Korea's governments as you said, because I say again, auto parts from other brands and countries are cheaper (even if they are from more prestigeus brands, from countries like Japan or Germany). So the between countries agreements and the taxes that imposed, IS NOT A EXCUSE.
Again, this is going to be different in every country. I wouldn't necessary blame Hyundai, unless Hyundai just says, "oh, let's charge the people of Greece more for parts, just because we can." Here in the US, Hyundai parts are cheaper in price than most all the other car companies out there. Almost all air filters sell for $13.12. There are a few that are $13.32. According to my Honda dealer, all Honda air filters are $25.00. That's about twice, just for a simple air filter. And there aren't any import taxes there, since more than likely the Honda part is made here in the US. And buying stuff for the Toyotas and Honda's I've owned, I do know that I have paid more for parts from them than I would for a Hyundai.
[FONT=Arial]Finally, how can I know that these that you told that you also own a Toyota and a Honda, and you find the Hyundai better than those japanese cars? How can I know that you are telling the truth?
I owned a '90 Honda CRX Si. I drove about 50 minutes each way to work, so I bought it to save on gas. Didn't save me that much, because I dumped more money into that car than any car that I've ever owned. Bought a 2003 Sonata LX in April of 2003 for my wife's birthday. She drove about 45 minutes each way to work, thus leading to the 100k miles she put on it in 3 years. We then built a house and moved a little closer to her work, cut her drive down to about 30-35 minutes. Traded it in on a 2006 GMC Envoy because she wanted 4wd and something bigger. Well, after putting 21k miles on it in 7 months, I bought a low mileage 96 Accord, just to save gas. 17mpg in the Envoy was expensive. And referring to that Hyundai's don't get the fuel economy that they advertise. Yeah, my Envoy is rated 21mpg on the highway, and it gets 17 on the highway, and much less in the city. It's the same way with all car companies. The NTSB didn't change the way they rated fuel economy until 2008, where they tested in more real world conditions. This took a hit on every car manufacturer out there because the rated fuel economy went down on every car on the road. Back on my point, I owned the '96 Accord for about 8 months before my in-laws gave us their '98 Camry. The Accord needed a lot of work, but I never got around to fixing any of it. It got her from point A to B. ABS didn't work, struts were soft and noisy, oil leaks, sunroof sometimes worked, sometimes didn't, same with windows and radio, transmission had some super hard shifts. The Camry I was given needed a lot of work as well, but not as much as the Honda, so I kept it, and sold the Honda. PLus the Camry had leather, and all the goodies. But still again, had to replace all the struts and mounts, the leather interior is coming apart, hard shifts, tensioner spring for the timing belt was weak, even though it was changed with the timing belt at 60k miles, valve cover gasket leaking, sunroof doesn't work. All this is in a 1998, same as yours, with the about the same mileage. So, do I go around saying Toyotas are pieces of s**t because my car has tons of problems? No, I don't. Why? Because it's a 10 year old car. Things get weak over time, and they fail. Is this Camry of higher quality than a new one, I doubt it. Will it last another 100k miles? I doubt it. That is why I plan on buying a 2009 Sonata in the spring for my wife to drive. Why? Because I already had one Sonata last 100k miles without a single issue, and I don't feel like spending a ton of money on this 10 year old one. In a couple of years, I'm sure the cost of repairs will be more than what a new car payment would be.

I am now done with this thread and listening to this nonsense. Go to another forum and talk down on Hyundai and praise Honda and Toyota for the superior car that you think they make. BTW, I have another customer with a 2006 Azera. No problems with his car yet, but he loves making fun of his next door neighbor because his 2007 Toyota Camry has had the transmission replaced in it twice now, and spends just about as much time in the shop as he gets to drive it. Yet, his poorer quality Hyundai as you see it, only sees the dealership for oil changes. I hear this story every time he comes in.

Thanks for your answer. Remember that we do this conversation in good faith. I believe that mine and your purpose is to inform the people about the things we know.
That logic cannot be more wrong. So you are saying Hyundai's quality was as good back when they first started out than it is today? Hyundai's quality back in the day did suck..
Yes, we agree on that. Hyundai's quality in the past (let's say 10 to 15 years ago did suck. Our difference is that you say that in the years that followed, hyundai improved a lot its quality and you said that it became better than some japanese brands.

I don't agree with that. I don't like to say the same things but every car industry by the pressure of low cost, year by year, reduces the quality. Isn't it obvious that cars of any brand, lasted more in the past 10 or 20 years than today's cars? All those guys that read our topic can confirm this. And it is logical. As the years passing there is a pressure to the car industries to sell cheaper. What they can do to reduce their cost? If their car are not good looking, the consumers will not buy them. If their cars don't have good technical features (speed, accelaration, fuel consumption, etc), the potential buyers will read their features and will not buy them. But in the issue of quality, you can not check and test a car with a test drive. You must own the car for some years to check the quality. So, when the car industries want to have low cost, the easiest way is to reduce quality. And I believe the most of them, they reduce quality.

And for supporting my opinion, I will tell you that my best friend, has an OPEL Kadett from ... 1978 (yes. seventy eight), from his father that in 1978 had bought it new. He has stoped going his Kadett in OPEL's authorised service from the '80s. When he realise some problem, he goes his Kadett to his neighbourhood car technician. Do you know when he confronted the same problem that I confront some months ago with my Hyundai Accent (oils burning inside the engine, so I have to carry always Oil with me)? Five or six years ago... Do you understand the difference? My car appeared this particular problem in 10 years. His car appeared the same problem in 24 or 25 years. In the decade I own my Accent, I went (always) my Hyundai only to expensive authorised service. My friend went his car only to his neighbourhood car engineer or electrician (oh... yes... they are much cheaper).

So which logic is right? Mine that I am saying that all car industries reduce he quality in the passing of time or your's, that you insist that car industries improve their quality? And if you are right, how you explain that OPEL Kadett of 1978 present the same problem with mine Hyundai, but OPEL presented it at 25 years and not in 10 years like my Hyundai???
Because that's true, I chalenge the korean Hyundai "qualitative" auto makers to come here in Greece, to test and check this OPEL Kadett to understand what is real quality and not "quality" that they make. I invite them to come here in Greece, to copy the machine of OPEL of 1978. Shame on them that after 20 years (the difference between the year 1978 of OPEL - 1998 of my Hyundai), they make a car (mine) that presented a particular serious problem in 10 years, when OPEL presented the same in 25 years. Shame!!!

In the other hand, I think we agree for the after sales service of Hyundai that sucks. The Dealer here in Greece is titled "HYUNDAI HELLAS"... yes... Hyundai. The Dealer is representing Hyundai Motors. He doesn't do anything he wants. He complies with the rules and standards of Hyundai Motors.
So when I gone and told them that the last malfunction of my Accent (lots of oils to be burned inside its engine) is UNACCEPTABLE when I drive "gently" (is proven by the Car's service book), I have done little miles in a decade and always go my car to the EXPENSIVE authorised service and then I asked Hyundai Hellas to fix it for free (yes for free because it's unacceptable) they told me that the warranty is expired. So what? If the problem is UNACCEPTABLE, they have to fix it. It's like the Recalls.
What every reliable car industry do when they realize an unacceptable problem that owed to their defective production? They recall the problematic cars, no matter if the warranty has expired, and fix them for free.
What's the difference in my case? I inform them for a defective car of theirs. They must fix it. They didn't fix it. I communicated with Hyundai Motors and Hyundai Europe. Nothing. For all of them, this malfunction is something usual, something acceptable... Enough!

You also didn't answered to my equations but you tried to justified the low resale value issue:

Hyundai's resale value is low because they are still trying to break the image of their cars from the past. There is also quite a large amount of Hyundai rentals. This floods the used car market with 1 or 2 year old cars with 30k miles that are selling for cheap because the rental companies are willing the sell them cheap when they are done with them. You see very few Honda or Toyotal rentals out there. Avis, Budget, Enterprise, Hertz, they all buy parts from me for their cars that they wreck. Avis and Hertz are my two largest customer. Avis along, just at the Indianapols location just took deliver of 219 new Hyundais ready to be put into service. These 200 cars will all of a sudden hit the used car segmant in another year. This is also the reason GM has drastically reduced the number of cars they sell to rental companies. They are wanting to increase the value of their used cars.

So you are telling my that the low rease value of Hyundais is the outcome of the large number of cars, as Hyundai/KIA is no. 5 top sales globally.

I can not disagree on that.
The top 10 in 1997 globally was like this:

2007 Global Sales Rankings
1. Toyota 9,366,000
2. GM 8,902,252
3. Volkswagen 6,191,618
4. Ford 5,964,000
5. Hyundai-Kia 3,961,629
6. Honda 3,831,000
7. Nissan 3,675,574
8. PSA/Peugeot 3,428,400
9. Chrysler 2,676,268
10. Fiat 2,620,864

So can you explain how the brands that are in the first, second, third, forth position (above Hyundai/KIA) and the 6th and 7th position that is near Hyundai, so they sell more cars than the korean group or almost the same number, all of them have much bigger resale value from Hyundai???

With your words the equation for Hyundai in this:

+ Hyundais High Quality in the recent years - bad reputation from the past
+ happy users in recent times - large number of cars in the market
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
= (according to your thought) increased supply of hyundai cars = Low Resale Value

Then following your thought, for the top auto seller, above Hyundai, we must have (with your words):

For the top sellers globally, above Hyundai

+ Good past reputation - Quality worse than Hyundai
+ High initial cost of new cars - unhappy users in recent times
- larger number of cars in the market
(have bigger sales from Hyundai)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what must be the result? You accepted that all of these brands have bigger resale value than Hyundai.
but if we take the equations elements we resulting = (the elements by your thought are the blue colour words above) = increased supply of those cars = Low Resale Value (like Hyundais or smaller) because we have more minus than the Hyundais equation.

But it isn't. All of these cars (brands), have much better resale value from Hyundais. So I believe that you are wrong. You are wrong because you:

overestimate the size of Hyundai sales (the other I mentioned, have already bigger sales, but they have better resale value).
underestimate the comprehension, the apperception of Hyundai owners in recent times, because you are telling that even they have good cars with quality and they are happy with it, they accept a low resale value from the potential buyers. The Hyundai owners in recent times are not morons to sell low, something that has a great value (their car). The only way to sell their car cheap, is that in total and in the long term, they are not satisfied with their cars. What means that? Hyundai have no quality.

So the top 4 (and the 6th, 7th, 8 and 9) auto makers globally they have better resale value than Hyundai, despite their bigger sales, the larger no. of their cars in the market. How is this possible? They have more satisfied drivers in the long term. And that can happen only if the have better quality.

And finally I want to speak for another issue that Hyundai sucks. SAFETY.
Go to this link and read...

http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:m_NgdwH-qm8J:www.lawyersandsettlements.com/articles/01381/car-crash-airbag-failure.html+hyundai+worthless&hl=el&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=gr (http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:m_NgdwH-qm8J:www.lawyersandsettlements.com/articles/01381/car-crash-airbag-failure.html+hyundai+worthless&hl=el&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=gr)

Yes, we agree on that. Hyundai's quality in the past (let's say 10 to 15 years ago did suck. Our difference is that you say that in the years that followed, hyundai improved a lot its quality and you said that it became better than some japanese brands.

I don't agree with that. I don't like to say the same things but every car industry by the pressure of low cost, year by year, reduces the quality. Isn't it obvious that cars of any brand, lasted more in the past 10 or 20 years than today's cars? All those guys that read our topic can confirm this. And it is logical.
It's perfectly logical that quality would IMPROVE. The automotive industry is VERY competitive. It's competitive on price, on content, and on quality. A car today has FAR higher quality than of cars 20 or 30 years ago and is constantly improving.

You see more of those older cars because there were more of those older cars. When Volkswagen had its best year in the US with the Type 1 (Beetle), it sold more of them than Volkswagen sells of all its models combined today. There were years where the best-selling Chevrolet or Ford models sold over a million units...today the best selling car line is lucky to sell 400,000 units.

Quality is measured in terms of reliability, fit and finish, and durability. Twenty or thirty years ago, you were proud to say that your car made it to 100,000 miles. Today, I'm always surprised when someone reports a major problem BEFORE 100,000 miles. I've got 160,000 mostly trouble free miles on a 17-year old car that was ranked among the LOWEST quality on the road in 1991.

Yes, car makers have cut costs to be competitive on price. But they've also improved vehicles in many other areas to be competitive on quality...and Hyundai is among the biggest of them. Today's Hyundai models are worlds better than the Accent of 1998 or the Excel of 1986 or the Pony of 1984. If you look at quality rankings, you'll see that the number of problems reported has gone down for almost all brands over the past 5, 10, 15, and 20 years. This is the measure of improved quality.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]You are wrong because you:

overestimate the size of Hyundai sales (the other I mentioned, have already bigger sales, but they have better resale value).
underestimate the comprehension, the apperception of Hyundai owners in recent times, because you are telling that even they have good cars with quality and they are happy with it, they accept a low resale value from the potential buyers. [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]The Hyundai owners in recent times are not morons to sell low, something that has a great value (their car). [B]

Hyundai IS one of the largest selling brand in North America. It's a fact. In the US (I don't have the Canadian numbers in front of me), Hyundai ranks 9th.
Hyundai's resale value is not high because it take a long time for public perception (you being a good example of this) to catch up to the market's actual position. Hyundai does rank relatively high in all quality surveys of its current lineup.

It's perfectly logical that quality would IMPROVE. The automotive industry is VERY competitive. It's competitive on price, on content, and on quality. A car today has FAR higher quality than of cars 20 or 30 years ago and is constantly improving. You see more of those older cars because there were more of those older cars...
My friend we have different opinions on this. So, can you tell me in what areas the auto makers cut the cost? Because you agree that they have to cut the cost. As I wrote before, quality is the easiest way to cut cost.


Quality is measured in terms of reliability, fit and finish, and durability.
I can not agree more on that. What of these have Hyundai? In my opinion, none. Or to be fair, the only good point from my experience is the finish, because the "body" of my Accent has no rusts in tde decade I have it.

You said durability (for the description of Quality). Do you find that my Accent has durability with all of these problems that appears?

But I disagree because my friend's OPEL Kadett of '78 is much more stronger, with better durability and general with better quality than my '98 Accent. The cars of the '70s and '80s were more durable, had better quality than the cars of the '90s (like mine) and the new millennium (above 2000). Even if the total number of the cars (af all brands) in '70s and '80s were less than the '90s and 2000+ (because every year sold new cars that increasing the total), we can found nowadays more old cars (25 years old) like the OPEL Kadett than new cars (of 10 years old) like mine. That shows us ONE THING: Old cars were more durable, with better quality than modern cars. Modern cars have advantage in the area of technical specifications (speed, accelaration, etc) and in Safety. Yes in the years that passed, car industries improved Safety (airbags, ABS, crash tests etc) but they reduce quality.

If I am wrong, why nobody till now, hasn't explain the "equations". You have read them. Can you explain WHY HYUNDAI -after more than 20 years in the game- HAS LOW RESALE VALUE ?

Hyundai's resale value is not high because it take a long time for public perception (you being a good example of this) to catch up to the market's actual position. Hyundai does rank relatively high in all quality surveys of its current lineup.

So the only explanation of Hyundais Low Resale Value is that the owners of Hyundais are morons? That they can understand that their cars are worthfull? In 20 years that HYUNDAI is in the game?
Sorry mate, but if HYUNDAI didn't succeed to persuade me that I own one of its cars (the Accent) and I have tested a decade, and if it hasn't persuade the whole market (cars owners) for the quality of its cars, then HYUNDAI has a serious problem.

So what do you suggest? That I should be happy for my choise (HYUNDAI) because my Accent in the first 5-6 years that I had it, it didn't appeared much problems? But I didn't bougt a vehicle for 5-6 years! If it Hyundai Accent has a quality to last only for 5-6 years, then it's not a car, it's a toy and a very expensive one!
Is it bad that I want my money (and yours) to have value?

And lets say for the goodfaith of the conversation that Hyundai finally improved the quality of its products. Because you and our friend lowsonome1999 agreed that in the older years Hyundai's quality was bad.
Can you tell me which is the "key"-year that Hyundai started to improve its bad quality?
So, all us the older Hyundai owners to know till what year Hyundai Motors fooled us, taking our money and selling us a toy that wants to call "car". I would appreciated if you tell me what is the key-year for Hyundais quality improvement.

And finally... see in this link the Warranty of Hyundai:
http://www.hellopeter.com/the_comment.asp?recid=138082

Wow! You have an opinion which you like to express but have no wavering. That's conviction, no matter what other facts have been brought up.
My friend we have different opinions on this. So, can you tell me in what areas the auto makers cut the cost? Because you agree that they have to cut the cost. As I wrote before, quality is the easiest way to cut cost.
Where did we differ on our opinions here? I stated that it is possible to cut costs without cutting quality and you stated that the easiest way to cut cost was to cut quality. Why are these two thoughts mutually exclusive? You CAN cut costs by finding better priced suppliers or by removing details that the owner will never touch, and these things will not lower the quality of the vehicle.

What of these have Hyundai? In my opinion, none. Or to be fair, the only good point from my experience is the finish, because the "body" of my Accent has no rusts in tde decade I have it.
As it has been pointed out earlier, your experience with Hyundai quality is ONE 1998 model year, entry-level vehicle. Since I have driven dozens of Hyundai models ranging from the 1993 Scoupe to the current lineup, I feel I have a bit wider range of experience than you. Modern Hyundais (ones built since, say 2000) have smooth engines, good fit and finish to interior and exterior panels, good gas mileage, reasonable power, and good reliability. And all that for a price lower than competitive vehicles. That sounds like a good quality car to me.

You said durability (for the description of Quality). Do you find that my Accent has durability with all of these problems that appears?
Let's return to the point made by the other two posters (lowsonoma1999 and myself) on this thread: Hyundai has made vast improvements in quality since your car was built a decade ago. The description of how good or bad your vehicle is/was has very little to do with how good or bad the brand is today.

But I disagree because my friend's OPEL Kadett of '78 is much more stronger, with better durability and general with better quality than my '98 Accent.
And I'm sure that my 1991 Suzuki puts BOTH of these cars to shame. What's the point? These are three isolated vehicles. Your Accent should not be used as the base case for all of the Hyundais built over the past 35 years nor should your friend's Kadett be used to base Opel's quality over the past 110 years. Cars of today are FAR more durable than cars of the 1970s or 1980s because they live longer on average. Today's cars are EXPECTED to reach 10 years and 100,000 miles with little effort where 20 years ago, that was the exception and not the rule. Those 25-year old Kadetts are strong because those INDIVIDUAL vehicles have survived. How about the 98% of them that have not? Your measure of two generations of vehicles is based on the surviving few?

And even with all of the new technology, today's cars break down less, are less expensive to maintain on average, and last longer than cars of ANY OTHER ERA. It's a fact. Your two examples are the anomalies.

If I am wrong, why nobody till now, hasn't explain the "equations". You have read them. Can you explain WHY HYUNDAI -after more than 20 years in the game- HAS LOW RESALE VALUE ?...So the only explanation of Hyundais Low Resale Value is that the owners of Hyundais are morons?
No. My explanation is that people in general are short-sighted. You, for example, believe that ALL Hyundais are bad because you got one that has not lived up to your expectations. No matter that Hyundai has improved its quality in the last decade dramatically. No matter that Hyundai has introduced TWO generations of your car since, improving the designed-in quality each time. No matter that they feel confident enough that their accountants have allowed them to take the risk on a 10-year/100,000 mile warranty in the US.

If you look at Ford products, for example. Their quality ratings rank up with the best in their class and yet their resale values haven't climbed. On the other hand, Honda and Toyota's quality ratings have fallen a bit, and still you see their resale value high. Why is that? Because public opinion LAGS behind reality. Additionally, surveys lag behind reality since it simply takes time to gather the information...which takes additional time to inform the public and even more time for their opinions to change. Heck, YOU won't believe me and I have spent years working in the automotive industry, much closer to the products and the companies than you.

Sorry mate, but if HYUNDAI didn't succeed to persuade me that I own one of its cars (the Accent) and I have tested a decade, and if it hasn't persuade the whole market (cars owners) for the quality of its cars, then HYUNDAI has a serious problem.
You just like to prove my point. You have owned ONE Hyundai. Hyundai has sold MILLIONS of cars and trucks since then. They've introduced dozens of models. And they have millions of satisfied customers. I don't think your one example is going to alter that fact that I can find you dozens who will tell the opposite story. I even know people who have had Hyundai Excels and they swear by (not at) them! I won't even defend that car...but they will. The point is not all that different than the one you're trying to make.

So what do you suggest?
That you open your mind a little bit. You car is one out of ten million or so Hyundais built in recent years. Just because your car was bad, doesn't mean they haven't improved in a decade...half a generation!

If you don't want to buy another Hyundai, that's entirely up to you and it can be blamed on Hyundai's lagging quality oh so many years ago. I won't argue against you. But for you to say that your 10-year old car is the prime example of why Hyundai doesn't make good cars today, I'd have to say you're sadly misinformed.
And lets say for the goodfaith of the conversation that Hyundai finally improved the quality of its products. Because you and our friend lowsonome1999 agreed that in the older years Hyundai's quality was bad.
Interior quality, improved powertrains, higher quality materials, better suppliers...etc. You stating that your car hasn't rusted proves that they've found better quality metals since the 1980s. Why can't you believe that they have improved the rest of the car as well? The engine in your Accent was their first self-developed engine when it came out in 1992. Since then, they've improved their engines to the point that Hyundai's design was chosen over Mitsubishi's and Chrysler's when the three companies created the Global Engine joint-venture.

The world changes. Car companies improve or die. Hyundai has improved. You can choose to accept reality or deny it. It's your choice.

Thanks for the dialogue. :)
Let's say in goodfaith of our conversation that really Hyundai made some improvements in quality of its cars. Because really, I have an Accent from 1998.
Look at this link (it's not very big):

http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/articles/01381/car-crash-airbag-failure.html (http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/articles/01381/car-crash-airbag-failure.html)

So how do you explain the very bad behaviour on a crash of the Hyundai Tiburon that was bought at 2003, so is a new and suppose improved model?
Facts like this, make me think that finally Hyundai didn't improve its cars.
Makes me think that is still have bad cars. I want an answer.

Furthermore, even if Hyundai Motors improved in the last years, that doesn't excuse it for taking my money in 1998 when I bought my Accent (among a lot of other people that purchased Hyundais that time). I paid HYUNDAI and instead of a reliable car, it sell me an expensive vehicle-toy.
And when I mentioned the last problem to HYUNDAI HELLAS, nothing happened from them, and when then I refered to HYUNDAI MOTORS and HYUNDAI EUROPE it also nothing happened. No solution at all.
As I said before, I ask them to fix the problem for free. Why for free? Because the problem is inside the engine, so the engine is diseffective from the factory. In the decade that past, I didn't drove "angry", I didn't push hard the engine of Accent, I did all the services regulary only to expensive authorised points. And among all others, it appeard a problem inside the engine!!!
Sorry but it is unacceptable. It is a malfunction of a diseffective engine. They must fix it for free. But they don't.
Why the reliable firms do recall when they realize a problem?
They know my problem, I told them. Why they don't fix it?
The only answer from me: hyundai is still unreliable as a company. It has no after sales servive. They sell something to consumer and they forget him. Even if the consumer approach them, they ignore him.
So what is your opinion about that behaviour of Hyundai nowadays?
For me this behaviour from Hyundai is a furtive robbery of my money. As they did to many others that simply, don't speak. I will forgive them because that happened 10 years ago? Of course not. Or you think it's irrelative? Put yourself in my position. I am furius.
If I knew this behaviour of Hyundai in 1998, I wouldn't have bought the Accent.

Let's say in goodfaith of our conversation that really Hyundai made some improvements in quality of its cars. Because really, I have an Accent from 1998.
Look at this link...
I know you're here just for argument's sake and that you want someone to defend your position, but that's not going to happen. Here's why.

Airbags are designed to fire in a relatively small range of collisions. This prevents the airbag from going off when, say, someone kicks your door or you bump the wall in your garage. Just because this Tiburon (and it could have been ANY model from ANY brand really) didn't fire the airbag doesn't mean that Hyundai has bad airbags. I don't know the angle of the accident since I wasn't there. Can't tell you any more about this particular case except that the service manager was wrong to say what he did.
Facts like this, make me think that finally Hyundai didn't improve its cars.
"Facts like this?" You don't have many facts other than this was a Hyundai, the driver had an accident, and the airbag didn't deploy. You don't know the details of the accident to see if the airbag SHOULD have deployed. Since the driver is still alive when someone hit him doing 65 mph, I'm going to say that he wasn't broadsided (where the airbad definitely should have deployed). Other than that, you have few facts.
Furthermore, even if Hyundai Motors improved in the last years, that doesn't excuse it for taking my money in 1998 when I bought my Accent (among a lot of other people that purchased Hyundais that time). I paid HYUNDAI and instead of a reliable car, it sell me an expensive vehicle-toy.
Sure...let's discuss your problems:
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]I own a HYUNDAI Accent from 1998 and have only 92.000 klms (that would be about 65.000 miles).
Car that's more than 10 years old...go on...
HYUNDAI cars generally may be cheap to buy...
You get what you pay for. You didn't expect a Lexus, did you?
...it has poor construction quality
...again, you expected a Lexus for $10k?
...it appears often mechanical and electrical malfunctions...
What kind? Does it leave you stranded? How often?
...the fuel consumption usually is bigger than this described by its book...
Have you read "the book?" The part where it says "your mileage may vary." Fuel economy estimates are just that...ESTIMATES. You will be hard pressed to find anyone who can match the fuel economy numbers in "the book," which are to be used for comparison purposes only.
...it has expensive genuine parts so an EXPENSIVE SERVICE...
Cars aren't cheap. And no matter what brand of car you buy, the parts and service from the dealer are going to be more expensive than going to NAPA. That's where the dealer makes his money.
...it burns lots of oils inside its engine...
Did I miss the part where this car was 10 years old? When cars age, they tend to use more oil, even to the point of needing it on a regular basis. You've got an older car...again, doesn't matter what brand.
when I drive I hear sounds and “cracks” from the main body and the plastics of the car...
See the above reply.
In the long term, I EXPERIENCED ALL THESE PROBLEMS. My opinion is absolutely NEGATIVE for HYUNDAI generally.
I'm betting that this is your FIRST new car. As you learn more about cars, you'll see that many of these problems are NOT unique to your experience here.

You purchased the entry-level model from an entry-level brand and you expected it to perform like a Toyota or Honda priced at 2-3 times as much? There's a reason why it's less expensive. And there's a reason why you didn't buy a Toyota or Honda. You get what you pay for.

...I ask them to fix the problem for free. Why for free? Because the problem is inside the engine, so the engine is diseffective from the factory.
You asked for the dealer to pay for a problem with a more than 10-year old car? Good luck to you no matter where you got the vehicle. NO COMPANY is going to stand by their 10-year old vehicle, no matter how gentle you are on the engine. They have NO RESPONSIBILITY for your car outside of the warranty range. If there's a defect in the engine, it will show up in the first few thousand miles. If it has lasted for 100k and 10 years without failing, there are no major defects. And recalls aren't on engine defects for 10-year old cars.

You can be as mad as you want. You should be realistic, which you're not. The car is old. If it doesn't meet with your expectations a decade after it was built, get rid of it and move to a vehicle built in this century. Anyone who has spent as little as you have and had personal transportation as long as you have shouldn't be complaining about the car's quality. Sounds like you got more than your money's worth out of it.

Goodafternoon,
The car is old. If it doesn't meet with your expectations a decade after it was built, get rid of it and move to a vehicle built in this century. Anyone who has spent as little as you have and had personal transportation as long as you have shouldn't be complaining about the car's quality.
But you in a previous comment answered to me that the cars of the new era and of any brand, are better than cars of older years. You said that the new cars will last more miles than the old. That is a theoritical statement.
The fact is that my friend's 30 years old OPEL Kadett (of the year 1978) is much more durable and quolitive than mine Hyundai Accent of 1998 (only 10 years old).
So what is more possible to be right? A theoritical statement or a fact?

In all of your comments you insist that Hyundai in the last years did improved the quality of its cars. This is a statement.
When I bought my Accent in 1998, the seller had told me "Doesn't matter if Hyundai is not known yet, that is a car with quality".
I believe his statement and I bought the car. His statement was wrong by ignorence or by purpose to fool me.
With a small research to internet, I find serious problems to the new made Hyundai cars of the recent years (like 2006). See the link:

http://my.opera.com/skid94/blog/2007/01/08/more-2006-hyundai-sonata-problems

Ouch!!! :naughty: Where is the quality of new Hyundais? As you read this vehicle left their owners on the side of a busy highway. This is a serious problem that can happen only to cars with no quality.

Also, the link that I mentioned before with the crash, is a real accident, a real crash and the owner of this Hyundai doesn't share the same opinion with you. He is clearly speaking about low Hyundai's crashworthiness. In a real accident. Everyone that read us here, don't you think that your life worth much more than the "way" that Hyundai protects you? Safety and Hyundai are two totally different meanings.

So I mentioned two real fact, not theoritical statements, that Hyundai owners have the worst opinion for their cars. These are facts, not theoritical statements. And between theoritical statements and facts, I prefer facts.

What is the conclusion? HYUNDAI STILL HAS NO QUALITY, STILL HAS SERIOUS PROBLEMS. But Hyundai's defenders say to us "No, No, now Hyundai change, improved its cars, has quality". Why must I believe them?
Is it possible some funs of Hyundai or company's representatives or someone who has interests connected with Hyundai Motors, to say the truth? No!
Only the real owners like me and like the two other people in the occasions I mentioned in the links, can say the truth. And I bought my Hyundai in 1998 (has no quality) and they bought their Hyundais in recent years (still no quality). So who is telling the truth here?

Of course someone, maybe you or a Hyundai's representative, can say that these are only two exambles in thousands of sales. If you do this (you or anybody else) is a huge mistake because :nono: :

a) There are lots of others "exambles" of Hyundai worthless and someone can find plenty of them in the internet. Problems of old Hyundais but and with new Hyundais. Real problems from real owners.

b) If you accept that are sporadic cases, then you delete the customer-oriented philosophy that every company must have. So Hyundai show to us that is not customer - oriented. Hyundai cares only to sell cars to consumers and then forget them or/and ignore them, when there is a proven fault of the factory.

Even one car in thousand to have problem by some diseffective meterial, the Company must fix it, no matter how many years passed. That is what it does a trustwothy car company, a reliable one, that respect its customers, that Hyundai doesn't.

And finally for this comment I repeat: :sunglasse if HYUNDAI makes cars to last 5-6 years only, we must know it. That's the quality of Hyundai = 0 (zero, in the past and in the present). :iceslolan

Ok, I'm going to jump back in this, because this is just plain ridiculous. Your logic and reasoning is so totally out of this world, I wonder what kind of education you have. You point out a couple instances where Hyundais have had trouble. Look at this one. http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/lexus-air-bags.html Or maybe this one. http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/settlements/06920/toyota-oil-sludge-settlement.html Both of those from the same site that you posted about the wrecked Tiburon. There are posts about airbags not deploying in a Lexus. Oh my god, the brand that is supposed to be prime example of quality, their air bags aren't deploying. This must mean that their quality is in the sh***er too. Oh, and the 2nd one is oil sludge. A very common problem in Toyotas. Back in 2000 and 2001, I worked at Pep Boys, a large service facility chain here in the states. We replaced I don't know how many engines in Toyotas. Mainly told customers that it was due to lack of maintenance. But it looks like it ended up a poor design by Toyota. Man, these are both huge. Toyotas must really suck. Might as well buy an Isuzu. You look on a website dedicated to lawsuits. Do you think you'd find anything good to say about a brand on that site? Yeah right. People post issues they have. Hardly ever does somebody make a thread about their car that had 75k miles on it, and they have no problems. How boring would that be? You b***h and whine about Hyundai not giving you everything you want for free on a 10 year old car. Go find another car company that will replace your engine for you when you are out of warranty by that much. Here in the states, Hyundai came out with a 10yr/100k mile powertrain warranty starting in 1999. We have replaced engines and transmission on cars that are 8 years old, with 90k miles on it before, providing the customer can prove they have maintained the car. I have actually had a customer come in at 50k miles with a blown engine that have never changed the oil. She claimed that they shouldn't have to change the oil, it has a 100k mile warranty on it. Somebody at whatever dealer they bought the car from just failed to inform them because it has a long warranty, it doesn't mean you don't have to maintain the vehicle. My '90 CRX I bought back in 1999. Ok, add this up, only 9 years old, with 80k miles. I put two distributers in the car within a year. The 2nd one, the igniter under the distributer cap actually caught fire, and melted everything under it. Do you think Honda would warranty this for me? I think not. I couldn't even get the distributer I bought from them a year earlier warrantied, because I had put over 12k miles on that car since then. Should I go after Honda corporate and tell them that this factory defect made me late for work, and cost me money towing to the shop, and I want reimbursed for everything? They would have laughed in my face. And even back in 1990, Honda had already been around for almost 20 years in the states, and had built their reputation up as being a quality car. So does this one defect mean that their cars are junk, NO. Every manufacturer has their downfalls. Honda is known for bad distributers, axles, and rear control arms on older Accords failing. GM trucks are known for bad front suspension and steering components. Chrysler, bad transmission and rear differentials. GM cars for water pump and intake leaking issues. Toyotas for sludge. Speaking of Toyota. The '98 Camry I own now was originally purchased for my wife when she got into doctoral school, by her parents. The day after she bought it, the battery went bad. A week after it was towed to the dealer, they called her to tell her it was done and she owed $500 for damage to the shifter. Not only did not they call to authorize any additional work to be done, but the damage was done by the tow company that TOYOTA dispatched to pick the car up. Another two weeks later, she finally got her car back. Couple years later, she bought an Olds Bravada and gave the car back to her parents. Her mother cannot drive anymore, so thats why it was given back to us. You are basing your opinion on Hyundai, on your own opinion and what few stories you find on ther internet. I said in an earlier post that I would have never bought the Camry if it wasn't given to me. Would I buy a Toyota? No. Is it because of my experience with all the issues I've had with this Camry? No. I wouldn't buy a Toyota because I don't like the design of their cars. This Camry is probably the most boring car I've ever owned, and I've owned a lot. All of their cars are boring in my opinion, and lack style. The only one I would halfway consider is the Corolla, but I like the Elantra better. So for less money, I'd buy an Elantra. I do like the design of the new Civic more than the Elantra though, so if I was to buy another small car, it would be between the Elantra and the Civic. Civic being more expensive, but I like the design more. Both with similar gas mileage, but a much better warranty with the Hyundai, and with as much as my wife drives, that is a big factor.

I could go on and on, but it's getting late, and I have to work in the morning. If you are so unhappy with your car, get rid of it and go buy something else. Same thing I did with my Accord. It had issues, I didn't feel like dumping a ton of money into it, so I got rid of it and went on with my life. I didn't spend hours on the internet finding examples of Hondas with issues so I could back my claim up. I just hope someone closes this thread, and we can all go on our happy way. Hudson and I enjoying our Hyundai, and you can go searching for a '78 Opel.

Ok, I'm going to jump back in this, because this is just plain ridiculous. Your logic and reasoning is so totally out of this world, I wonder what kind of education you have. You point out a couple instances where Hyundais have had trouble. Look at this one. http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/lexus-air-bags.html (http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/lexus-air-bags.html) Or maybe this one. http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/settlements/06920/toyota-oil-sludge-settlement.html (http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/settlements/06920/toyota-oil-sludge-settlement.html) Both of those from the same site that you posted about the wrecked Tiburon. There are posts about airbags not deploying in a Lexus. Oh my god, the brand that is supposed to be prime example of quality, their air bags aren't deploying.
That statement of yours is very good because proves the right of my opinion that I stated from my first comments: that new players in a market ca't have the quality that have the old players. I never said something good about L... brand. You said. The L.... brand is new player in the Luxury cars section. And guess what... you show to me that has no enough good quality! I agree. As also, Hyundai is a relative new player in the middle cars section (is about 20 year+ in the market) and still has NO QUALITY. And as the years passing, the quality getting worse. The L.... brand when appeared in the market had better quality -as many people said then- than the classical car makers of this market section because wanted to gain customers. Now that gained customers and fans, reduced its quality. That statement of yours only proving that I have right. As the years passing, all of the car industries reduce the quality of the products in an attempt to have lower cost = better profit.
I never said that only Hyundai has quality problems. But I care most for Hyundai that I own. The other guys that have prpoblems with their other brand cars, can speak for themselves. No one prevent them. I don't. Do you?
Hyundai that I own, had not quality and as I proved, it seems that still hasn't.
So I am happy that you finally agreed with me, telling that Hyundai hadn't quality in 1998 and hasn't even nowadays. You agree that when a new player in a market becomes old, have customers size and fans, reduces what? .... reduces quality... you said that with your examble with L..... brand. I never defended the L..... brand because I don't have my own opinion.
I have a Hyundai and I accusing this company that fooled me and sold me a worthless car and I have a claim. To fix at least, the last serious problem for free. Otherwise Hyundai is unreliable, with no quality, not customer-oriented.
We have the words (you and every other defender of Hyundai are telling words) and facts (diseffective car of mine... yes! 10 years old... it's a fossil!!!). What we must believe? The worthless words or the real acts? Hyundai just don't care fot its customers!

By telling that Hyundai (and other brands, but I don't care about others) has a "quality" that last only 5-6 years and I must be pleased with that, you only admitt that HYUNDAI HASN'T QUALITY and with your statement, showing that you don't care for each customer.

You musn't do comparisons by chosing the worse. The comparison must be made by looking the best in its field and trying to reach him. That's how a company with any product, becomes better. So don't tell me about others, tell me about Hyundai.
Of course if you want to speak about others, I can do that.

P/S: May be Hyundai in US has a big warranty, but this happens -I believe- because a lot of people don't trust it. Furthermore, how do I know that it has no tricks?

See the link for Hyundai warranty:
http://www.hellopeter.com/the_comment.asp?recid=138082

Sofianopoulos Panayiotis (sofpan)
sofpan@yahoo.com

That statement of yours is very good because proves the right of my opinion that I stated from my first comments: that new players in a market ca't have the quality that have the old players.
You keep missing the point I'm trying to make: one vehicle is an anomaly. Whether it's ONE 30-year old Opel that's done well or ONE 10-year old Hyundai that hasn't, they're not the norm.

The experience of two people with two cars is not a survey of the entire production and definitely can't be used to compare the progress of automotive engineering in the past three decades. I can show you DOZENS of cars from 1977 that, in comparison, will make your Accent look like a Rolls-Royce!

Please understand, I've worked in and around the automotive industry for many years. I do know what I'm talking about. Your experience with your Accent and your friend's Kadett does not make for a good basis of knowledge. I've driven hundreds of cars and trucks in the time that you've owned that one and I can definitely tell you that technology, engineering, and quality have IMPROVED in that time...for Hyundai and for everyone else.

You can argue all you want about how your THEORY is right, but it's not. My statements are based solidly in fact where yours are based merely on your experience with ONE CAR.

The links you have supplied may be real accidents, but you, again, missed the point of how you don't have all of the facts. Airbags should NOT go off in all accidents and how do you know that they should have deployed in this one? You are simply guessing that it should have.

What is the conclusion? You're basing your theory on one car. Today's Hyundais are designed to last well over a decade because they warranty them in the US for 10 years. And it is IMPOSSIBLE to make every customer happy. Your car doesn't have any problems that I wouldn't expect from ANY 10 year old car, and yet you think it's simply because you bought a Hyundai. THIS lack of experience is why you can't make every customer happy.

You keep missing the point I'm trying to make: one vehicle is an anomaly. Whether it's ONE 30-year old Opel that's done well or ONE 10-year old Hyundai that hasn't, they're not the norm.

Don't you think that there are to many anomalies, all against me?

First anomaly: my 1998 Accent that wold be better than a middle 1978 car, is proven to be worse.

Second anomaly: my friend's Kadett of 1978, even if the rule -as you say- is that "the older, the worse", have last better than my Hyundai.

Isn't this strange? Is this logical? :eek7:

I can show you DOZENS of cars from 1977 that, in comparison, will make your Accent look like a Rolls-Royce!
:grinyes: Yes I would appreciate if you show me because I am not an easy believer.

Please understand, I've worked in and around the automotive industry for many years. I do know what I'm talking about.
I respect your experience. But you ought to admitt that you have some special interests that connecting you with Hyundai Motors. Remember: the salesman when I bought my Accent back in 1998, told me that it was a quality car. The facts made him liar.

My statements are based solidly in fact where yours are based merely on your experience with ONE CAR.

Yes. One car = One customer = me = unhappy customer from Hyundai diseffectice engine and bad quality car.
Do you want to say that my car happened to be one diseffective car? Let's say it. Don't Hyundai showing the respect that ought to have to a customer, have to fix it, accepting its fault? If not, then it doesn't respect me. And as It doesn't respect me, tomorrow Hyundai will not respect you, when a Hyundai car that you drive, will appear a problem.
So If Hyundai doesn't respect my right claim, even if it is for ONE car in thousands, it will do it again, with someone else, when again a car of theirs appear a problem of their fault.

No respect to one Customer = No respect to any Customer = Not Customer-oriented.

And I, in basc economics, I learned that "Customer has always right".

The links you have supplied may be real accidents....
They are real accidents. It is obvious by the details.

Hyundai is a relatively new manufacturer compared to the rest. In business, if you are the new guy, you have a lot more to improve on. It is almost impossible to start at the top especially in the extreme competitive automotive manifacturing. This is exactly what hyundai is doing, they are improving, not the other way around. Trust me if their cars did not improve majorly in quality their sales would not be so high right now regardless of fuel prices or the cheap prices of their cars.

A three year old 2005 model is keeping it's value much better than a three year old hyundai did in 1998. The cars have improved over all and there is no evidence saying otherwise. New better quality cars from Hyundai will not improve resale value on older models that were known to have poor quality.

Don't you think that there are to many anomalies, all against me?

First anomaly: my 1998 Accent that wold be better than a middle 1978 car, is proven to be worse.

Second anomaly: my friend's Kadett of 1978, even if the rule -as you say- is that "the older, the worse", have last better than my Hyundai.
That's ONE anomaly described two different ways.

:grinyes: Yes I would appreciate if you show me because I am not an easy believer.
If you can't find them, you're obviously not looking.

I respect your experience. But you ought to admitt that you have some special interests that connecting you with Hyundai Motors.
I have no connections to Hyundai. I have never taken a paycheck from Hyundai and I have never had my name on the title of a Hyundai vehicle. I have, however, driven many of them over the years and I find them to be such a good deal that I have recommended them to close family members (and they have enjoyed their ownership experiences).
Remember: the salesman when I bought my Accent back in 1998, told me that it was a quality car. The facts made him liar.
The facts made him a car salesman. It's his job to get you into the vehicle.

Don't Hyundai showing the respect that ought to have to a customer, have to fix it, accepting its fault?
I dare you to find ANY car company in the world who will fix your engine entirely at their cost after a decade! If that's what you call "respect," you're not going to get it from anyone.
And I, in basc economics, I learned that "Customer has always right".
In advanced economics, you learn that the customer is NOT always right. When the cost outweighs the benefit, it's just easier to tell the truth and explain to the customer that he's wrong. The benefit of paying for your old engine to be replaced for you to drive for another 5-10 years without buying another Hyundai does not outweight the cost of it. This is in addition to the fact that your car has been in service for A DECADE...a point you fail to accept.

They are real accidents. It is obvious by the details.
The details aren't obvious. Do you have the vehicle for me to inspect? Can you tell me that the accident was in a place where the airbag definitely should have deployed? Just because the car was hit doesn't mean the airbags should deploy. And like I said before, if he survived a 65mph hit then the accident wasn't directly in his side where the airbag should have deployed and would have probably SAVED HIS LIFE. Instead, he survived without it. Without the ACTUAL DETAILS of the story, I can't say that Hyundai was at fault here.

I'm curious then, what do you consider a quality car then? With your screwed up logic, the new companies would have the highest quality. Well, if that is true, then Hyundai would be a car of better quality than just about everyone else out there since they are the newest. What about GM, Ford, and Chrysler. All have been around 100 years or more. How do these cars even make it off the factory lot. If their quality has been declining over the past 100 years, then I don't see how the cars even run at all. Hyundai started making cars for Ford in 1968, and began to make their own cars in 1975. Toyota's first cars around 1935, Honda in 1963, your beloved Opel in 1899, do you want me to go on? Mitsubishi, 1917; VW, 1937. etc.

The reason I brought up the Lexus examples was because Lexus is supposed to be the pinacle of quality. In JD Powers surveys, the Lexus is the only car that consistantly beats the Hyundai in initial quality. Toyota, Porsche, Honda. Sometimes they are higher, sometimes lower. Plus, there are idiots that come into the Hyundai section of this forum that don't know a thing about them. I don't know how many times someone will start a thread stating that Hyundais are crap, buy a Toyota. Most of these people don't even own a Hyundai, they are just immature, and feel like starting trouble. Everybody thinks Toyota is the greatest. This is all based off of image, not the FACTS. When I first started here 6 years ago. An ad in the paper just said south side import dealer looking for assistant parts mgr. I faxed in my resume, I get a call back and caller ID says Indy Honda. I was excited I was going to be working for a Honda dealr. I get down there to find out it was actually for the Hyundai, Suzuki, and Isuzu dealer. The Honda dealer was next door, owned by the same person, and all bills were paid out of the Honda store, thus being the reason Indy Honda showing on my caller ID. Needless to say, I was a bit disappointed, but it paid good, so I took the job. After only 6 months, I had changed my mind on Hyundai and bought one myself.

Ok, enough of my ranting for tonight, be back tomorrow to see what more drama has developed.

Wonder what he really thinks? :headshake

I welcome all of you!

It is almost impossible to start at the top especially in the extreme competitive automotive manifacturing. This is exactly what hyundai is doing, they are improving

Yes Internationalist, you wrote a comment but you didn’t read well the previous comments. If you have did this, you would have seen that I said that car industries, among them and Hyundai, do improvements but no to quality and durability of their cars. They are doing improvements to other sections. Sections like technical features (speed, acceleration, fuel consumption etc) and safety (airbags, ABS etc).
That’s because the automotive industry is very competitive, the industries have to sell in low prices. By the pressure of low prices, the only thing that is easy to reduce is quality. Because quality can test it only in long term. You can not test quality by a test drive.
So the next time, don’t be rush. Read carefully the previous comments so no need to make repeats.

A three year old 2005 model is keeping it's value much better than a three year old hyundai did in 1998. The cars have improved over all and there is no evidence saying otherwise.
I haven’t conviced yet. What are the proofs of that improvement of quality that you all declare? You haven’t show even one thing that proves that quality increased in the passing of years.

I can show you DOZENS of cars from 1977 that, in comparison, will make your Accent look like a Rolls-Royce! ...
If you can't find them, you're obviously not looking.
My friend Hudson, you said that you will show me dozens of oldies cars that will make my Accent look like a Rolls. When I kindly accept your offer, you told me that I have to look for. What logic is this? :confused: Please, I tell you again that I want, you to show me these cases. Otherwise you just talk...

I dare you to find ANY car company in the world who will fix your engine entirely at their cost after a decade! If that's what you call "respect," you're not going to get it from anyone.

Yes dear. I will find a company. It will be Hyundai. Hyundai will pay for the disrespect that show to me, when happened to have a diseffective engine (in my Accent). Hyundai will pay its fault. :lol2:

The benefit of paying for your old engine to be replaced for you to drive for another 5-10 years without buying another Hyundai does not outweight the cost of it.

:runaround: Be careful readers of this topic about Hyundai.
Hudson that usually defends Hyundai, just admitted (see his quote) that Hyundai sells cars to last 5 – 10 years, that is an average of 7.5 years but the range that give is from 5 years.
Come on luckies, buy the Hyundai quality cars that they last 5, even and 10 years. What a company! I will buy tomorrow!!!
Hudson also admitted that the purpose of Hyundai (and I say, every other company) is to sell a car to last this long, so after that time period the consumers to have to buy a new car!

I knew it! That the car industries make improvements to the cars to bo attractive to consumers (design, technical features, fuel consumption, safety) but they reduce the quality, the durability of the cars, so the customers have to change them every 7 years and car industries to take our money that we earn it by hard working. I knew it! Do you know it? Thanks Hudson! :biggrin:

The details aren't obvious. Do you have the vehicle for me to inspect? Can you tell me that the accident was in a place where the airbag definitely should have deployed?

I repeat: the owner of this Tiburon that was in the accident and he is alive by luck, doesn’t share your opinion, that you pretend ignorence. Come on Hudson. You are a clever guy. :grinyes: Honestly, I believe you are the most clever of the “Hyundai Defenders” in this topic I opened.
So dear Hudson in what circumstances you believe that the airbags would deployed? At 100 miles per hour? When the Tiburon would exploded? At these circumstances, it would be worthless. It doesn’t have to be expert someone to understand some problems...

And last but not least, my second beloved, lowsonoma1999.
I'm curious then, what do you consider a quality car then?
I have told that thing many times. I consider a car industry has quality, when its cars are durable, last with no important problems for 15-20 years (my friend’s Kadett is 30 years, so 20 years it’s not large time period – Ofcourse for you that have a different opinion about quality is large), have non expensine maintenance costs and have strong after sales service, showing respect to each customer. That’s my opinion about quality in cars.
Now I will pass the question back to you:

What do you consider dear lowsonoma1999 about cars’ quality?
With details please... I am very curius...

... if that is true, then Hyundai would be a car of better quality than just about everyone else out there since they are the newest
Maybe I made a mistake and I didn’t give you understand. :eek: What I say and what I mean, is that when a player in new in the game, has to make good products. The products that will produce the new player, is depending on the knowhow that has. The knowhow of new cars industries ofcource is low. That’s why in the first years use the engines of other much more experienced makers. So when I say that the new players produce good cars, I mean that they build them strong with good quality materials.
The new players in the first years can not have the technology it has an experienced player that is many years in the merket, but they can build a strong car that will last for many years, so the customers to be happy for their choise, and when it will be the time to change their car, to buy another from the same brand. The difference between the new player and the old is the technology that the old has and the new hasn’t. And technology refer to mechanical perfomances like spped, acceleration, fuel consumption etc. In those areas the new player can not compete the old player but in the area of durable parts and strong materials can compete the old player. It only has to pay for the good quality materials.
But as the years passing and the new player isn’t anymore a rookie, after some years that make sales and have customers, at a slowly rete, gains fans. Fans have no brain.
Fans as in soccer or basketball are just saying that their team is better than every one else. So like this, the fans of car brands will buy again the same brand, no matter the quality. Consequently after some years in the market, the relative new player gains experience (= increased technology but technology doesn’t mean quality), gains size of sales and fans, so ensures its sales with the marketing help. But by the pressure of low cost of its products –because auto industry is very competitive- it has to retain the cost of production in low levels.
How will achieve that? It can make new agreements with its suppliers but the easiest way, is to reduce quality, to make its cars last less years than lasted when it was rookie.
And our dear Hudson admitted (look above).

All these for today. Greetings folks! :)
Sofianopoulos Panayiotis (sofpan) sofpan@yahoo.com

My friend Hudson, you said that you will show me dozens of oldies cars that will make my Accent look like a Rolls. When I kindly accept your offer, you told me that I have to look for. What logic is this? :confused: Please, I tell you again that I want, you to show me these cases. Otherwise you just talk...
The comment was a retorical answer but if you were here, I'd show you the cars. Since you're not, all you have to do is open your eyes the vehicles around you.
Yes dear. I will find a company. It will be Hyundai. Hyundai will pay for the disrespect that show to me, when happened to have a diseffective engine (in my Accent). Hyundai will pay its fault. :lol2:
Dream on, kid.
:runaround: Be careful readers of this topic about Hyundai.
Hudson that usually defends Hyundai, just admitted (see his quote) that Hyundai sells cars to last 5 – 10 years, that is an average of 7.5 years but the range that give is from 5 years.
Come on luckies, buy the Hyundai quality cars that they last 5, even and 10 years. What a company! I will buy tomorrow!!!
And you picked on another posted for not reading comletely? I mentioned YOUR car lasting "another" 5 to 10 years. Unless the math you were taught is different that elsewhere in the world, that would give your car a 15-20 year lifespan.
Hudson also admitted that the purpose of Hyundai (and I say, every other company) is to sell a car to last this long, so after that time period the consumers to have to buy a new car!
Again, read. I said that the job of a SALESPERSON is to sell you a car. It's Hyundai's business to profitably build and market their products. Replacing the engine in a car that has lived beyond the average lifespan of a car (which is, actually about 8-10 years) is NOT in their best interests. It's in your best interest to TRY to get them to do it, but you will fail. Sorry...it's the way things work.
[QUOTE=sofpan]I knew it! That the car industries make improvements to the cars to bo attractive to consumers (design, technical features, fuel consumption, safety) but they reduce the quality, the durability of the cars, so the customers have to change them every 7 years and car industries to take our money that we earn it by hard working. I knew it! Do you know it? Thanks Hudson! :biggrin:

In the US, the desire is to get people in and out of their vehicles every 4-5 years, not 7. Once the warranty period is over, there's no reason you should go after the manufacturer for a fault you've found on your car. Vehicles have practical lifespans and the average is well under ten years. If I died at 100 years old, which is well above the average lifespan of a person, I wouldn't expect my family to mourn my loss...if you car is still alive at 10 years, you should be THANKFUL, not mad at Hyundai.
I repeat: the owner of this Tiburon that was in the accident and he is alive by luck, doesn’t share your opinion, that you pretend ignorence. Come on Hudson. You are a clever guy. :grinyes: Honestly, I believe you are the most clever of the “Hyundai Defenders” in this topic I opened.
So dear Hudson in what circumstances you believe that the airbags would deployed? At 100 miles per hour? When the Tiburon would exploded? At these circumstances, it would be worthless. It doesn’t have to be expert someone to understand some problems...
You obviously don't know how a car works. If the car was hit by a bullet train doing 200 mph, I wouldn't expect the airbags to go off unless they were within the designed parameters. If you have a head-on collision, the front airbags should deploy. If you get broadsided at a 90-degree angle directly on the b-pillar (the post just behind the driver's side door), then the side-impact bags should go off. But the story you posted described (vaguely) how the door came in on his legs, leading me to believe that the "65 mph" collision occurred closer to the front fender of the car than the driver's side door. Without more information, I would NOT expect the airbag to go off.
...my friend’s Kadett is 30 years, so 20 years it’s not large time period...
A thirty-year old car is ANCIENT. Heck, a 15-year old car is ancient. A car that is driven regularly should not be expected to live more than 8-10 years. If it does, you should count yourself as lucky. If it makes it to 10 years, you should count your blessings that you got that much value out of it.
...How will achieve that? It can make new agreements with its suppliers but the easiest way, is to reduce quality, to make its cars last less years than lasted when it was rookie.
And our dear Hudson admitted (look above).

Cars are redesigned every 4-6 years. When that happens, new contracts are drawn up from most of its suppliers. EVERY company has the same opportunity to get improved (higher quality, lower price, etc) parts from suppliers...actually, older more established companies have a BETTER chance of doing it because they have a longer relationship with these suppliers.

You asked earlier about how you can lower cost and not lower quality. If you make a new product, you have to design and engineer it, tool up the factory, and get subsuppliers on board. If you continue to make the product, you've paid for the design, engineering, tooling, factory, etc...which allows you to lower the price. This is how some parts are made less expensive for car companies, therefore they can improve the quality of other parts (in addition to the improved quality on the lower-cost part when the supplier has learned how to make it better or more efficiently).

I'm sorry if I'm talking over your head. These are common ideas throughout the automotive industry. And your insistence that Hyundai pay for a problem in your ten year old car is an incredulous thought.

You may have been taught that believing in something long enough will make it come true, but it's just not the case. You say that you won't buy from Hyundai again, and I'm sure Hyundai is happy to hear that you won't be bothering them in the future.

Dear Hudson
and lowsonoma1999

I offer you an Olympic Cease-Fire to enjoy the Games.
The deal is me and you two, to pause post comments for as long lasting the Olympic Games that start tomorrow (8th of August). If is OK with you two, lets have it.
My friend lowsonoma1999 can answer if he wants, to my last comment.
You Hudson already did it.

So if we agree, I will not post a new comment, but I will have the right to answer to anyone else. To be fair, you will have the same right (answering to anyone else).

Of course, I will answer you right away after the completion of the Olympics.

So do we have a deal? :biggrin:

Sofianopoulos Panayiotis (sofpan) sofpan@yahoo.com

I think this blows the whole "Hyundai's hasn't improved" thing away.


Award Recipient

2005 Hyundai Accent

http://www.jdpower.com/images/ratings/powercircles/5.gif


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http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-category/sub-compact-car/sortcolumn-1/ascending/page-#page-anchor

Sorry sofpan :loser:

Welcome cjgt2!
And I was curiοus if you would come in this forum.
I think this blows the whole "Hyundai's hasn't improved" thing away.

My friend cjgt2, a award from jdpower doesn't proves anything.
The title of jdpower site is www.jdpower.com (http://www.jdpower.com)
Do you know the "com" what is for?
For Company.

A Company want revenues.
How can we know that is not paid by the companies to advertise them?
How can we know that this company has not connected interests with Hyundai Motors?
Do you know it?
And if you know it, how you know it and how you're sure?
Can you check them?
NO! You can't.

So for me this kinds of awards are worthless, like Hyundai's products.


You want to speak for awards? Lets speak.

Many of the "Hyundai Defenders" say that I am basing my opinion to one car, that I am not an expert like you and Hyundai improved its cars in the last years. Let’s see…

Probably the most known globally television programme about cars, is “Top Gear” (UK). I watch this programme and here, in Greece . The guys in this TV Programme knows a lot about lots of cars. They are very experienced and their opinion is important. I believe they are trustworth because if they weren’t the Programme wouldn’t have such a cuccess.

So “Top Gear” declared Hyundai Accent of 2004 the worst car of this year!

What is just said? THE WORST CAR OF THE YEAR.

Ouch! Hyundai did it again!!!

Did I awarded Hyundai? No. The world famous "Top Gear" did.

Yes… the Accent of 1994 that everyone of you, the "Hyundai Defenders", tells me that since 2000 and after, Hyundai Motors improved its cars… No men… Hyundai didn’t improved its cars. Hyundai reduced the quality.
I don’t say that, me that I am strange… the most famous globally and trustworthy TV series about cars said it, the “Top Gear”.

Of course someone is wrong. Who is wrong? The globally famous “Top Gear” or all of you, the "Hyundai Defenders", that may be you are famous, but I don’t think that you are so much famous as “Top Gear”. And because I know that all of you, will try to question the value of “Top Gear’s” opinion, I will tell you that global fame and recognition it’s not gained easily by a television programme from the spectators globally.

So, enjoy the link all of the "Hyundai Defenders". See the great prize od Hyundai. Great cars!!!

http://www.tv.com/top-gear-uk/series-5-episode-7/episode/408901/summary.html


So sorry cjgt2! :rofl:

Greetings Racecraze! Welcome!
Yes. I admitt that Hyundai/KIA Group is in the 5th position globally on yearly Sales. See the comment No. 5 (mine) in the first page of this topic.
But I question the quality and reliability of Hyundai.
I question heavily Hyundai by facts and common sense.
If you haven’t read the whole topic from the beginning, read it slowly. :uhoh: It worths. You will see my opinions and “Hyundai Defenders” opinions.

I don’t intend to make another new accusing comment for Hyundai in the period of Olympics, unless I get provoked.
I will continue after the Games.

So, enjoy the Games!!! :popcorn:

P/S: If Hyundai was a man and participating the Olympics, I am sure that he wouldn’t be a champion! Hehehe! :iceslolan

My friend cjgt2, a award from jdpower doesn't proves anything. ...A Company want revenues. ...How can we know that is not paid by the companies to advertise them?
Probably the most known globally television programme about cars, is “Top Gear” (UK). I watch this programme and here, in Greece . The guys in this TV Programme knows a lot about lots of cars. They are very experienced and their opinion is important. I believe they are trustworth because if they weren’t the Programme wouldn’t have such a cuccess.

So “Top Gear” declared Hyundai Accent of 2004 the worst car of this year!
Let's see...you TRUST the company that produces Top Gear, a TV program associated with a magazine that makes its living off of selling ADVERTISING but you don't trust the company that makes its living off rating the quality of goods and services? You're selectively blind, aren't you?

"Probably the most known globally television programme about cars, is “Top Gear" "- Sofpan

It is? Show me a link on how it's shown globally. It's hard trying to find the magnazine in the US, let alone the TV show. But you know what, I'll show you why THEY said the Hyundai Tiburon was a better drive then the Lexus SC430
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuLRzVHN6ik :p

To tangle you in your own web even more :uhoh: , going by your logic, cars get worse as time goes on. A car now isn't as good as a car made years ago but how does that explain all the cars lasting longer more so then they ever did?
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/31/cars-continue-to-rack-those-miles-and-years/
http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/15/Autos/cars_age/ :tongue:

Speaking of awards, the Hyundai Elantra was named top pick in the class by Consumer Reports but CR is a NON PROFIT organization. Did Hyundai sneak money to them? If so why not pay for ALL the awards? And why now when they could've done it years ago?

Any more lame ducks you want me to shoot down?
:iceslolan :iceslolan :iceslolan :iceslolan :iceslolan

Let's see...you TRUST the company that produces Top Gear, a TV program associated with a magazine that makes its living off of selling ADVERTISING but you don't trust the company that makes its living off rating the quality of goods and services? You're selectively blind, aren't you?

Its not a simple company. The Company behind “Top Gear” is BBC. I personally trust much better the BBC than JDPower. I didn’t even knew JDPower that cjgt2 mentioned. I assume that globally, that population that knows “Top Gear” is by far bigger than the population that knows JDPower.

And be careful Hudson: I didn’t say that I trust absolutely any “massive opinion leader” organization like “Top Gear” and JDPower. In any of those organization that influences the people opinion, I don’t know what they are their (organizations’) real interests and purposes. These organizations may take money from enterprises and companies.
The non-profit organization doesn’t assure us that is not “accepting” money... I can not check them, you can not check them, so how you are sure? For me those “ratings”, “positionings”, “awards” etc, doen’t interest me, they are without value.

But If any of you, the “Hyundai Defenders” challenge me, as cjgt2 did with this “award” to show us that Hyundai is great, it is very easy for me, to smash his reasoning, by his own way of thinking, that allow me to present him a same but more heavily “award” from a organization that is more known and famous (Top Gear agains JDPower).

So I am not selectevily blind. As I said, I don’t trust absolutely none of these organization. The absolute right, is my opinion from my experience. But of course, if you ask, between Top Gear and JDPower, I trust more Top Gear. You know why? Just because I know that “Top Gear” is associated with BBC, I know that it takes advertisements (how JDPower or any one that is non-profit organization, lives? With no money? Only with air?), and has a globally viewers population to judge it.
So “Top Gear” is much more “clear” and “open” than JDPower. If Top Gear misinformed its viewers people, the same people, its fans would have discredit it and would have stop watching the Series. But no. They keep watching Top Gear. This made me understand, that in general terms, Top Gear is trustfull but JDPower, I don’t even know it.

Cease fire for the Olympics?

Greetings Hudson! :smokin:
Sofianopoulos Panayiotis (sofpan) sofpan@yahoo.com

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Its not a simple company. The Company behind “Top Gear” is BBC. I personally trust much better the BBC than JDPower. I didn’t even knew JDPower that cjgt2 mentioned. I assume that globally, that population that knows “Top Gear” is by far bigger than the population that knows JDPower.

Interesting assumption, but JD Power is a well-known company globally. And they're a diverse company with distinct consulting and ratings divisions. Unlike BBC whose business it is to make money off of TV shows and magazines. BBC gets its money from advertising. JD Power gets its money from companies who want to know where they rank in the world.
But If any of you, the “Hyundai Defenders” challenge me, as cjgt2 did with this “award” to show us that Hyundai is great, it is very easy for me, to smash his reasoning, by his own way of thinking, that allow me to present him a same but more heavily “award” from a organization that is more known and famous (Top Gear agains JDPower).

[QUOTE=sofpan]...But of course, if you ask, between Top Gear and JDPower, I trust more Top Gear. You know why? Just because I know that “Top Gear” is associated with BBC, I know that it takes advertisements (how JDPower or any one that is non-profit organization, lives? With no money? Only with air?), and has a globally viewers population to judge it.
Nobody said JD Power was a non-profit. But their business is to rank companies within their markets. Which I would trust before I'd trust a publishing company, since I've worked in both areas and know how little you can actually trust the media.
[FONT=Arial]So “Top Gear” is much more “clear” and “open” than JDPower. If Top Gear misinformed its viewers people, the same people, its fans would have discredit it and would have stop watching the Series. But no. They keep watching Top Gear.
Sure they keep watching it. It's ENTERTAINMENT! If it wasn't entertaining, it would go off the air, no matter if its facts were good or not.

Interesting assumption, but JD Power is a well-known company globally. And they're a diverse company with distinct consulting and ratings divisions. Unlike BBC whose business it is to make money off of TV shows and magazines. BBC gets its money from advertising. JD Power gets its money from companies who want to know where they rank in the world.
The (any) TV program is controled and checked by a big population (viewers). How, any organization like JDPower (profit on non) is checked and controled?
And I repeat: I don’t trust absolutely none, except my experience and common sense.
If Top Gear is more trustworthy than JDPower, I leave it to our readers judgement. I will not argue on this anymore.

I finger all these “Hyundai Defenders” that in “Yahoo! Answers” coordinated reported “abuse” to my answers-warnings about Hyundai. They all make a joint, so my Account suspended.
Cjgt2 are you one of those?
All those guys only showing their fear about me. Otherwise they wouldn’t have problem with my answers.
Yessssss............................ be afraid of me, all you “Hyundai Defenders” that you prove that you don’t like dialogue.
You don’t like dialogue because you have wrong and Hyundai is worthless.
No matter what you will do, you will find me above you.
You will “cancel” me in one site, I will appear in one other site.
You will not get rid of me. :nono:
....Afraid!!!


Sofianopoulos Panayiotis (sofpan) sofpan@yahoo.com

The (any) TV program is controled and checked by a big population (viewers). How, any organization like JDPower (profit on non) is checked and controled?
TV programs and magazines are controlled by their advertisers because they're the ones paying the bills, not the viewers. The viewers only need to be entertained.
And I repeat: I don’t trust absolutely none, except my experience and common sense.
In that case, your common sense should tell you that ONE vehicle experience is a poor sample of the whole of a vehicle run. It is IMPOSSIBLE to claim that "Hyundai cars are worthless" by driving ONE example. Common sense tells ME that.

If you had common sense, you would be open to other ideas that could possibly be more accurate than your narrow experience. Perhaps that's why they didn't like you on Yahoo.

I've driven hundreds of different cars and trucks. Never have I said that anyone one of them could speak for the manufacturer, brand, or even model. I always leave open the possibility that the ONE vehicle I drove had a problem but there's always the chance that the rest of the model (or brand or manufacturer) has the same problem...but that chance is slim.

So by your logic... The Movie Fast and Furious is more 'trustworthy' than a company who's sole purpose is to unbiasedly rate automobiles because more people have heard of it?

But on the other hand... I agree that older Hyundai cars were complete crap, however i dont agree that they are all crap now. Hyundai has made some great improvements over the years, much like Honda...

TV programs and magazines are controlled by their advertisers because they're the ones paying the bills, not the viewers.
Dear Hudson if a TV program or magazine has not enough viewers, it depends on the advertisements it recieves and the qualifications of its advertisements director and his public relationships. If a TV program has big audience, a lot of people watch it, then the TV program or magazine HAS POWER and DOESN’T NEED NO COMPANY. The (any) company needs this strong TV program or magazine. Top Gear is the most known and famous worldwide cars TV program and obviously if –by your “common sense” that is the sense of a “Hyundai Defender”- needed advertisements once, then the not so famous worldwide JDPower, would needed revenues (may be with “hidden” payments from car industries) ten times more. Top Gear has much bigger negotiable power (from its viewers) than JDPower. If some organization has more power, it can be more indepedent.

So I will ask again the question that you avoid answer me:
What are the revenues of an organization like JDPower? Does it sells magazines? No, so it hasn’t revenues of this kind, that Top Gear has. Does it accept advertisements? No, so it hasn’t this kind of revenues that Top Gear has. Top Gear has revenues from selling magazines and accepting advertisements. Top Gear business are “open” and “clear”. Top Gear has a strong negotiable power and the auto industries need Top Gear, not the opposite.
JDPower that doesn’t sell magazines and doesn’t accept advertisements, how survives? With charity from anyone that visits its internet site? Tell me please Hudson: how JDPower lives?

In that case, your common sense should tell you that ONE vehicle experience is a poor sample of the whole of a vehicle run. It is IMPOSSIBLE to claim that "Hyundai cars are worthless" by driving ONE example. Common sense tells ME that.
Tell me dear Hudson, my problematic Accent did it produced in another factory and not at a Hyundai factory? Did it produced in another production line like for exable in the production line of FIAT? Did it produced by the standards of Hyundai Motors or by the standards of some other brand? Did it produced with Hyundai’s raw materials or with the raw materials of some other auto maker?
No dear Hudson, my Accent produced at a Hyundai production line of a Hyundai Factory, with the Hyundai’s standards, with the Hyundai’s chosen raw materials. And what is the result? A diseffective car. And like my Accent produced at a Hyundai production line of a Hyundai Factory, with the Hyundai’s standards, with the Hyundai’s chosen raw materials, like this and the previous (than mine) vehicle that produced would have been problematic, and the next to mine, would have been problematic, and the second next to mine would have been problematic, and so on. And that’s because all Accents that produced in this particular production line that my car produced, produced with the same procedure and the same raw materials that Hyundai Motors chose. So it’s not only a car that is diseffective (mine). It’s at least, the whole series that produced in this particular producrion line.

If you had common sense, you would be open to other ideas that could possibly be more accurate than your narrow experience. Perhaps that's why they didn't like you on Yahoo.
Your “common sense” is a “Hyundai sense”. Furthermore, in democracy (you know the word and its meaning?) when someone has different opinion from some other, allow him to say his different opinion and allow him to be heard. In democracy there is freedom of expression. What the “Hyundai Defenders” did? They joint themselfs and reported “abuse” to my answers. They don’t like democracy. They act like fascists. Me that I like democracy, I never prevented someone to express his opinion. I never reported “abuse” the answer of some “Hyundai Defender”. That’s a big difference between me and some of the “Hyundai Defenders”: I am democratic, they are fascists. :mad: I allow them to tell their opinion, no matter if I don’t agree, but they have problem with me when I’m expressing my opinion.
Some of the “Hyundai Defenders” are proven to be chicken: they afraid of me, when I’m expressing my opinion.

Try to delete or pause me and you will find me to another two sites for the one that pause me by your fascist beheviour. :naughty:

People that read us, have the brain to understand if I am telling the truth, or you are telling the truth. They don’t need you, the “Hyundai Defenders” to protect them.

And I am telling that HYUNDAI is WORTHLESS!!!

Please readerσ of this Topic-forum, read it whole from the beggining. It worth.

I taking back my offer about Olympic cease-fire. I only retain the cease-fire with lowsonome1999 that didn’t provoke me.

Sofianopoulos Panayiotis (sofpan) sofpan@yahoo.com

So by your logic... The Movie Fast and Furious is more 'trustworthy' than a company who's sole purpose is to unbiasedly rate automobiles because more people have heard of it?

Who spoke about movies? Did I?
I spoke for the most known and famous -by far- specialised Cars TV informative program. There is a huge difference. And the "heaviness" of Top Gear is much more bigger than JDPower's. Does anyone question this???

But on the other hand... I agree that older Hyundai cars were complete crap, however i dont agree that they are all crap now...
Because I am open minded I can agree that from time to time, Hyundai produces some relatively good cars, only for a small time period, to confuse consumers about Hyundai's quality. Is that enough for you? For me, its not enough. :nono:

Take your ego down a couple notches... no one is 'afraid' of you. i think its more they got sick and tired of reading your comical 'facts'. And as Hudson and others have pointed out, they dont hold much water. I also would like to know why you think we are 'provoking' you... we are simply stating opinions here and hence why this thread hasnt been locked or anyone banned.. yet... but if this turns into something personal, i assure you, myself and most likely Hudson will be more than happy to send the 'provoker' to a trip to "Banlandia"

For the wise cjgt2 that question the 1st position of Top Gear worlwide:

"Probably the most known globally television programme about cars, is “Top Gear" "- Sofpan.

It is? Show me a link on how it's shown globally. It's hard trying to find the magnazine in the US, let alone the TV show.

I will show you:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_(current_format)

There it writes:

"Top Gear is a BAFTA, multi-NTA and International Emmy Award-winning BBC television series about motor vehicles, mainly cars. It began in 1977 as a conventional motoring magazine show.... The programme is estimated to have 385 million viewers worldwide.[1] In 2007 it was one of the most pirated television shows in the world.[2]".

Do you understand cjgt2 that questioning the popularity of Top Gear (...hardly finds it in US, etc)?

Top Gear –adventitiously?- has 385 million viewers worldwide and its much pirated. 385 million viewers is a huge number. Can you show me another TV Program about cars that has more viewers? That has almost a number of viewers near to Top Gear’s?

You want more?

See more:
http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071002234629AA1vwze

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AkDUVa9gYpAV5GLq3i146Y0jzKIX;_ylv=3?qid =20080809013423AA1h51V

Do you understand cjgt2? Almost everybody –even girls- knows Top Gear that you question its popularity. So cjgt2 you told me that you didn't know enough that Top Gear is the first TV program about cars globally. If you knew that Top Gear is first globally you wouldn't ask me to prove it, OK?
So are you so ignorant about cars themes, or are you a liar? Or we have another option? Tell me please...
If you are so ignorant about cars’ themes, then what are you doing to this cars forum?
If you are liar, you have no position here, but... don’t worry, I am generous. I don’t have problem to express your opinion. I can easily prove you’re wrong. You see... I am democratic, not fascist.
:evillol:

The popularity of the show (Top Gear) has led to the creation of two international versions, with local production teams and presenters, for Australia and the United States.

Noother TV program about cars has two local production teams. :loser:

[FONT=Arial]Dear Hudson if a TV program or magazine has not enough viewers, it depends on the advertisements it recieves and the qualifications of its advertisements director and his public relationships. If a TV program has big audience, a lot of people watch it, then the TV program or magazine HAS POWER and DOESN’T NEED NO COMPANY.
Not only do you not know how the automotive industry works, but you don't know how TV and magazine industries work.

Viewers of TV shows and readers of magazines do NOT pay for the existence of them. Advertisers do. Sure, if nobody watches or reads them, then no advertisers will show up. But if the shows or magazines don't treat the advertisers well, they won't show up then either. TV shows and magazines NEED advertisers no matter how many viewers or readers there are.

Top Gear is the most known and famous worldwide cars TV program...needed advertisements once...
...and still does today. That's how they pay the bills.
Top Gear has revenues from selling magazines and accepting advertisements.
The revenues gained from selling magazines barely pay for the distribution of the magazine...the magazine exists almost solely because of the advertising. And the magazine would shut down almost over night if the advertisers walked away...no matter how many people read it.

[B][FONT=Arial]JDPower that doesn’t sell magazines and doesn’t accept advertisements, how survives?
You really don't read well. JD Power is a LARGE company. They sell consulting services and part of that knowledge that everyone pays for comes from its surveys that rank businesses in various industries, including the automotive industry. JD Power is far more unbias than Top Gear, which is highly influenced by advertisers and the FEW writers.
[FONT=Arial]Tell me dear Hudson, my problematic Accent did it produced in another factory and not at a Hyundai factory?
A Hyundai plant most-likely built your Accent. But because YOUR ONE CAR was bad, then anything made by Hyundai would therefore be bad? C'mon...even YOU can see how that's a stretch of the imagination. And especially when you look at your ENTRY-LEVEL model, it can't possibly reflect on the models positioned above it...making your claim that "Hyundai cars are worthless" a moot point.

Nobody here is afraid of you. You're narrow-minded and fail to see outside of your little rose-colored glasses. There's a big world out there...wise up!

Greetings Hudson. Generally, I agree with you. But not in the point that you tell me that I do not know how the automotive industry works, and how the TV and magazine industries work.

We say the same thing with the only difference that you present the business of cars TV program very dependable to its advertisers. In general terms that’s true. But in the case of Top Gear with the power that has, its not true. The auto enterprises hunting a TV program like Top Gear and not the opposite.

You are clever because I saw that you didn’t question the top worldwide popularity of Top Gear like someone else did.

But you still didn’t answer me how an organization like JDPower realy lives? Ofcourse you said that sells consulting services to industries (what kind of consulting services?) and sells its surveys that rank businesses. Well, the ranks are almost open to viewers, so what it sells? I don’t understand. Tell me please.

And of course, you didn’t explain how are you sure that an organization like JDPower doesn’t receive money from a company to show a better rank, positioning, etc, to improve its customer’s image (with an extra hidden fee for the organization like JDPower). How are you sure Hudson? What is the controling mechanism for the rankings and positioning procedure of an organization like JDPower, that influence a lot the peoples opinion?

I accept that JDPower is one of the big companies of this kind of businesses, but its not more known and famous globally than Top Gear. Furthermore, I believe the “heaviness” of Top Gear is bigger than JDPower. If my Account was not suspended in “Yahoo! Answers” (by the “Hyundai Defenders” that afraid of me), I would have post a relative question like “What do you know and trust more about cars, the Top Gear TV programe or JDPower?” and the people out there, would have given their answer to you.

A Hyundai plant most-likely built your Accent. But because YOUR ONE CAR was bad, then anything made by Hyundai would therefore be bad?
Now you are selectively answered. My whole sentence was:
...my Accent produced at a Hyundai production line of a Hyundai Factory, with the Hyundai’s standards, with the Hyundai’s chosen raw materials. And what is the result? A diseffective car. And as my Accent produced at a Hyundai production line of a Hyundai Factory, with the Hyundai’s standards, with the Hyundai’s chosen raw materials, like this and the previous (than mine) vehicle that produced would have been problematic, and the next to mine, would have been problematic, and the second next to mine would have been problematic, and so on. And that’s because all Accents that produced in this particular production line that my car produced, produced with the same procedure and the same raw materials that Hyundai Motors chose. So it’s not only a car that is diseffective (mine). It’s at least, the whole series that produced in this particular production line.


I put the last sentence in purpose in large font size, so you can see my sentence and don't say that only my car was problematic. Many cars were problematic.

And the facts that I have present here (like cases with problematic new Hyundais and the "award" of Top Gear), show to us that Hyundai still makes cars with no enough good quality.
So the conclusion: Hyundai builds worthless cars.

Goodnight Hudson, its late here in Greece. See you tomorrow.

Sofianopoulos Panayiotis (sofpan) sofpan@yahoo.com

LOL, calm down, you think I reported you on Yahoo Answers? Sorry, but I didn't. The administration may have felt you didn't follow the guidelines. It's a question and answer forum not a soapbox (Try the Politics section for that :rolleyes: ). Why would you think that anyway? Can't you tell I'm having too much fun busting your bubble? :p

You keep saying awards don't mean anything but then you cite an "award"?! BAFTA, multi-NTA and International Emmy Award. Huh! :screwy: Do you believe in them or not? Are YOU the liar! :thumbsdow

You keep clinging on to Top Gear, but the show was cancelled http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?Topgear (http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?Topgear) or is it? http://jalopnik.com/391121/up+front-page-up-top-gear-usa-not-cancelled (http://jalopnik.com/391121/up+front-page-up-top-gear-usa-not-cancelled) YOU and 159 other people are the only one's who is making them the authority on cars. :iceslolan Seriously, despite Top Gear's limbo status in the US, yes I do know they are popular but just because they are popular that doesn't mean they are the top people on cars. Brittney Spears is popular, does that make her the best singer?

Besides, on top of the "award" thing you cite (edit) Wikipedia (edit) and a couple of Yahoo questions?! :screwy: It's funny how you don't mention the TOP GEAR link about how they liked the Hyundai Tiburon more then the Lexus (fact based info), or how cars are getting better and not worse like you suggested, but you want to "get me" using...........Yahoo Answers!? The one site that banned you. :headshake

OK, want me to post more "Hyundai positive" Top Gear stuff. Remember YOU trust Top Gear over everything and it was YOU who said Hyundai hasn't improved......

"The Hyundai Coupe looks decent enough and is pretty pleasant to drive"

"The i30 is not exactly a revelation, but average styling disguises a car that's actually OK"

"Hyundai's new Santa Fe is a much better-looking revision of the not-so-awful bargain soft-roader. Quality is on theup :iceslolan , but the prices are staying right down, which is as it should be"

http://www.topgear.com/drives/B6/B3/

...................... they aren't the biggest Hyundai fans but it was never a question of how good they were. It was whether or not if they improved since your 98' Accent. Top Gear even admits generation to generation improvements.

I was trying to honor your "Cease fire for the Olympics" but you tried to shoot me in the back over B.S.! :nono:
Now that you don't have Top Gear to cling to anymore my guess is your going to keep trying to find ANY negative review to say how bad Hyundai's are. If you do you will stray from your main point because all sources say they improved since your 98 Accent. Keep holding on to the Top Gear thing and that proves OUR (Hyundai Defenders) point even more.
The fact you deflected from your main point to throw us off shows deceitfulness. You started the "Hyundai hasn't improved thing" Top Gear being popular isn't the topic you started.
Can't bring knives to a gun fight my friend.

As I said cjgt2 I don’t have a problem leaving you expressing your opinion. I am democratic, not fascist and I am not afraid of noone. Some others seems to be afraid of me.
At “Yahoo! Answers” was not Yahoo that reported “abuse” for the suspension of my Account. My answers were not offensive to no one, just telling my opinion with the relative links that were usefull for someone to see the details and if the asker didn’t likec my answer, he wouldn’t choose it as best. Its a certain thing that the “Hyundai Defenders” reported “abuse” my answers and Yahoo by those reports mafe the suspension. That is obvious because one of my answers was to an asker that he also had bad opinion about Hyundai, so he didn’t reported “abuse” my answer.
You cjgt2 and other 2-3 guys, you are the most regular “Hyundai Defenders” in “Yahoo!answers”, you almost answer only in questions about Hyundai (don’t you have other interests?) and once, when I was fresh in “Yahoo!answers” you have told me that you discredited my answer. So, how can I believe you that you are telling the truth and you didn’t reported “abuse” my answers? Your behaviour is suspicious.
Anyway, I don’t care, I will make another new Account.

Now to our main case:
I concluded that you are became careless and don’t read our comments here. Because I have admit – because I am open minded - , in comment 35 that from time to time, Hyundai produces some relatively good cars, only for a small time period, to confuse consumers about Hyundai's quality. And I am asking again: Is that enough for you? If a company produces 60% of its products in a relatively good quality level and 40% in a low level of quality, is that OK with you? Because if it’s OK that means that when you are going to buy that product, you accept 40% possibility to take a problematic product. For me, its not enough. A company that behave like this, is showing no respect to customers and consumers and it’s unreliable.
Hyundai is acting like this, because it has not a permanent good quality level for all of its models, all the time.

As for the Top Gear, is unquestionable that is the top TV cars program worldwide. I said that the “heaviness” of Top Gear is bigger than JDPower. If you question this, you post a question in “Yahoo! Aswers” asking “What do you know and trust more about cars, the Top Gear TV programe or JDPower?” to see the results. Your comparison of Top Gear and Britney is senseless because the point is the combination of cars expertise and worldwide popularity. So the point its not only popularity. Britney is not a car expertise, is a pop star.
I also have said many times that I don’t trust absolutely none organization, either Top Gear, either JDPower. I trust absolutely only my experience and common sense.
The “award” of the worst car of the year 2004 given to Hyundai by Top Gear, I just mentioned because you provoke me with an “award” of JDPower to show me that Hyundai has great cars. Till then, I hadn’t mentioned any “award” because I don’t trust them. You provoke this and I answered by your “award” logic. Nothing more.
As for the Inernational Emmy Awards for Top Gear, I think they are objective and real because those awards are given to TV programs. I have never seen an Emmy Awarded TV program that not deserves the award. And that’s because in a field like TV that you have big population of viewers, can not award programs that are not agreeable and likeable from the television viewers. Otherwise, the awards would lose their value.

I am going back to Top Gear: you mentioned some good comments about Hyundai. What did I said before? I don’t trust absolutely no one except my experience and common sense. And I didn’t said that just before. It;s not something new. I have said that, lots of comments before. But again by your logic, using now the Top Gear, I will mention that Top Gear is mainly against korean brands. What that proves?
Again, it proves what I am saying: Hyundai (I believe and other brands) from time to time, produces some relatively good cars, only for a small time period, to confuse consumers about Hyundai's quality.
If Hyundai nowadays did produced always good quality cars (as you and the other “Hyundai Defenders” say), it would take only good criticism. But it’s not happening this. So all of you, the “Hyundai Defenders” are wrong. As for the comparison you show me in Top Gear for Lexus and Tiburon, if you believe that Tiburon is better, I leave it to our readers judgement. For me is someone gave me for free a Lexus or a Tiburon, I would chosen the Lexus.

You cjgt2 also said that I didn't mention how cars are getting better that you indicated in an article, I dodn’t avoid it. I will tell you: the article that you mentioned, speaks about the american market. The data of course are real but the comparison is done on the oldies cars of the american market. The american market in the previous 10 to 30 years was dominated by american brands. So the article you indicated shows only that the oldies american cars were of poor quality. Nothing more. In the last years that the sales of the japanese brands have increased a lot in US, the stats about the life time of the cars getting better. Why? That’s only proving that the japs brands are of a higher quality than oldies american cars.
But I don’t speak only for the american market. I am speaking for the global market. I live in Europe and here, the oldies –mostly european and japs- cars last much more than the new cars, either are european, japs, koreans or american.

Conclusion: Hyundai is not a reliable company.









Sofianopoulos Panayiotis (sofpan) sofpan@yahoo.com

We say the same thing with the only difference that you present the business of cars TV program very dependable to its advertisers. In general terms that’s true. But in the case of Top Gear with the power that has, its not true.
It's the case with ALL programming. Top Gear is not above the power of an advertiser and the producers of Top Gear know where their paycheck comes from...those same advertisers, not the viewers.
But you still didn’t answer me how an organization like JDPower realy lives? Ofcourse you said that sells consulting services to industries (what kind of consulting services?) and sells its surveys that rank businesses. Well, the ranks are almost open to viewers, so what it sells? I don’t understand. Tell me please.
But I did answer you, and I'm sorry that you didn't understand. "Consulting services" includes advice about how to improve manufacturing and marketing and other aspects of business. JD Power uses much of the information it gains from the survey side (distinct from the consulting side) to improve its consulting business. As far as those surveys go, the public doesn't see everything, just the highlights. JD Power ranks nearly everything, in detail where the public only sees the overall brand or model rankings and now WHY one was chosen over another. That's where JD Power gets its money.

I can't say for sure that JD Power doesn't get money from the companies it ranks to alter their rankings, but I can say that I'd trust JD Power's rankings over a magazine, even your prized Top Gear. Additionally, JD Power's rankings wouldn't be the WORLD STANDARD that they are if they were influenced by corporate payoffs.

Magazines, on the other hand, are provided all of their test vehicles by the same companies who pay their bills.
How are you sure Hudson?[/SIZE][/FONT]
My experience working in the automotive industry for so long.
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]I accept that JDPower is one of the big companies of this kind of businesses, but its not more known and famous globally than Top Gear.
I'd have to agree to disagree. JD Power is VERY well-known in almost every country around the world as the STANDARD for quality rankings while Top Gear is hardly known in the US by anyone other than hardcore automotive fanatics. I've got to think that it's similar around the world where JD Power is in more industries than just automotive.
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]...And as my Accent produced at a Hyundai production line of a Hyundai Factory, with the Hyundai’s standards, with the Hyundai’s chosen raw materials, like this and the previous (than mine) vehicle that produced would have been problematic...
See, there you go assuming stuff again. Your "bad" car does not mean that the car next to it was bad as well. EVERY company builds a bad car once in a while, even right next to perfectly good ones. But you still haven't shown why your car, that has survived for a decade, is so "problematic." And you obviously haven't shown why 10 years on, it's so defective that Hyundai should go back and fix ANYTHING wrong with it. Build quality problems show up rather quickly, like within the first year of ownership. If there was a problem, it should have been addressed in 1999, not 2008...if you waited this long to complain, that's YOUR problem.

And let's use your comparison on another example. Two children are born to the same parents and raised in the same household and attending the same schools. One child gets in trouble with the law...therefore the other child should be jailed as well since they both should be "problematic." Right?

Oh...and their parents should be at fault for giving birth to them 20 years earlier.

You cjgt2 and other 2-3 guys, you are the most regular “Hyundai Defenders” in “Yahoo! answers”, you almost answer only in questions about Hyundai (don’t you have other interests?)" - sofpan

If you really looked at my profile I'm all over the place in Y!A. I spend alot of time in Hyundai because......Well, I own a Hyundai and feel I can help other people with their car plus when they have a real problem I get sick of people coming out with something nonsensical like "Hyuhnda sux". The real question is why were you in there if all you can offer is a "cut and paste" rant for every question? Oh I almost forgot, you did say to "shout at Hyundai" for some of them along with the "cut and paste" rant. How ignorant was that? Did it ever occur to that maybe the person asking the question was offended by your "answer"?

"from time to time, Hyundai produces some relatively good cars, only for a small time period, to confuse consumers about Hyundai's quality" "If a company produces 60% of its products in a relatively good quality level and 40% in a low level of quality, is that OK with you?"- sofpan

Got ANY prove of this? No, of course not, but it's pretty obvious your trying to save some credibility. Picking up the pieces after your comments were blown to bits. Why start the topic if you’re not willing to finish it? The only evidence you can come up, after your said statements, is Top Gear giving a bad award to a car 4 yrs ago, after I cited a good award given out to the same car in the present time. To defend you statement and the bad award you post how great Top Gear is because.......they are part of the BBC and popular. But now you have some reservations about Top Gear because.......I cited some positive comments they made about Hyundai? So now it's not about how good Hyundai's have gotten (you've conceded to that in your roundabout way) ........but how good Top Gear is, no........Oh wait, now it's, in your own opinion, inconsistent quality? Well, I'm not the type to pour salt on an open wound but this is from Top Gear's reliability survey if it's still relevant to you............

1 Skoda (UP)
Once-humble Skoda pushes the Japanese from the top slot
2 Lexus (DOWN)
Masters of build quality forced to a still-good second place
3 Honda (-)
Top two places in the car list helped secure a third place overall
4 Mazda (-)
Fourth place for the second year running
5 Mini (UP)
Mini's strong following means it's up two places at five
6 Subaru (-)
Another non-mover - would have scored higher but for high ownership costs
7 Toyota (DOWN)
Down two places for Toyota against last year's survey
8 Porsche (-)
Consistent performer, but reliability score lower than you'd expect
9 Jaguar (-)
Strong performance from the XJ helped Jag hold on to ninth
10 Hyundai (UP)
Hyundai swaps places with BMW - thanks in part to good service
11 BMW (DOWN)
X3 is most reliable car in the survey, but BMW still slipped a place
12 Suzuki (UP)
Decent performance means Suzuki moves up three places
13 Seat (UP)
Seat's up too, but not so impressive next to Skoda's performance
14 Lotus (UP)
Build quality was the only thing holding Lotus back
15 Audi (DOWN)
We expected better than middle of the table from Audi
16 Volvo (DOWN)
Reasonable effort, but didn't score well for ownership costs
17 Kia (UP)
A promising improvement against last year
18 Smart (-)
Smart holds onto its place just past the half way mark
19 Volkswagen (UP)
Modest improvement held back by surprisingly average scores
20 Nissan (DOWN)
Nissan slips one place from last year

The list goes on http://www.topgear.com/content/carsurvey/2006/features/08/2.html (http://www.topgear.com/content/carsurvey/2006/features/08/2.html)

I wasn't sure if I should've posted this because I'm not sure what your point is anymore.

Your pride and ego is the only thing that's keeping you going. You were done in since Y!A's. You wanted to stir up a hornets nest and got stung but you hung in there until post # 35. Good for you, but your pride is misplaced. You know the diffence between an opinion, facts and all in between so now this is getting a little weird. Get your car fixed or get another one it's just that simple. You can't convince the whole world all Hyundai's are bad just as much as I can't convince them otherwise.

I'm not going to post anymore because I got what I came for. To keep posting facts to oppose opinions and vice versa is senseless and you know this. Even if you post in Y!A's I’ll let nature take it's course. I know what I said there irked you but I didn't report you. Seriously, did you really not expect a heated debate after what you said? Show some maturity and try to help. You may have gotten some help for your car if you didn't let you emotions get in the way. I'm done "playing" with you. But I wouldn't refuse you if you need help. Good Luck.

I can't say for sure that JD Power doesn't get money from the companies it ranks to alter their rankings, but I can say that I'd trust JD Power's rankings over a magazine, even your prized Top Gear. Additionally, JD Power's rankings wouldn't be the WORLD STANDARD that they are if they were influenced by corporate payoffs.
I’m glad that you finally didn’t refused that an organization like JDPower maybe, is paid off by some customers to alter their really ranks. We don’t know it, so we can not take its ranks for granted, something to trust absolutely. I disagree in the issue of the power in the specific TV program (Top Gear). I believe that Top Gear have no need to hunt advertisements. The companies have the need to advertise themselfs at a program like Top Gear. Top Gear has the upper hand.

EVERY company builds a bad car once in a while, even right next to perfectly good ones.
How is that possible? The raw materials are chosen by the factory and have passed quality control. The standards are the same, chosen by the factory. The production line is the same that the factory builded. So if all the parameters are the same, how only one car can be diseffective?

But you still haven't shown why your car, that has survived for a decade, is so "problematic."
Ten years time I believe is not so big, its not so small for a car. But my car is defective because I have done only 90.000 klms (that would be about 70.000 miles), a number of miles that trully is small for a decade. I also –and always- drive “gently”, that means that I don’t accelerating strong, not driving fast, I don’t push hard my engine. The miles I have done are done gradually in the decade (that is proven from my service book). I always do (since today but no more) the service only in the expensive (comparable to other more prestigious brands) authorised Hyundai points.
Considering all these, do you think that the last problem that my engine has inside (burns a lot of oils), is something usual, that happens often under those circumstances? You think that this particular problem under those circumstances, is something of a car with quality?
I don’t think so. For me its obvious that my poor quality car, has a defective engine. Hyundai ought to fix it for free.
I believe that your examble about the two kids was unsuccessful to comment it.

For cjgt2 (or anyone of the other “Hyundai Defenders”):
The "cut and paste" tactic is correct when you want to say the same things to different people. You -that accuse the “cut and paste” tactic- you cut and pasted the top ranks and positionings of Hyundai in the most of the relative questions on “Yahoo! Answers”. Did I accused you for cut and paste? NO.
Yes cjgt2, when a Hyundai car has an unacceptable problem, you must shout at your dealer. It’s the correct thing to do to whatever company, when you gave them your money and they sold you a piece of junk.
I don’t need stats to show the obvious. I can find many issues about new Hyundais serious problems in the internet. So we have a big number of new hyundais that have problems. I don’t know the exact number (and how can I know it? how anybody can know the number of problematic, low quality cars of any company?) but I can sure you, that there are a lot of Hyundai cars still problematic. So, those facts from cases in internet that everyone finds, show to us that Hyundai is not stable to a good quality level. Builds some goods, builds some awfull bad.
But now you have some reservations about Top Gear because.......I cited some positive comments they made about Hyundai?
I refered to Top Gear when you show me some “award” to Hyundai from JDPower. I never claimed that Top Gear is questionless. I just said that I believe that is more “heavy” than JDPower.

Cjgt2 thanks for the list of Top Gear in your last comment. The list that you show me from Top Gear, is something that I wanted to show. I believe:
1) That the brands with Quality (I didn’t write accidentaly the word quality with a capital Q) are barely till the 10th position. Hyundai is in the 10th position. So it’s not in the pure cream of Quality. Ofcourse someone can say that Hyundai is improving... Do you believe that Hyundai is improving its quality in a permanent basis or improving its quality for some period, just to confuse the consumers? Consider the low resale value... Hyundai is not anymore a new player in the market... If you believe that Hyundai has great cars, OK, buy them. It’s your money.
2) As someone can see in the list some cars brands independently from their top positionings, are rated “DOWN”, like Lexus, Toyota, BMW. What that is showing to us?

That auto makers as the years passing, reduce the quality!!!:rofl:

What I’m telling you almost in every comment on this Thread? That car makers by the pressure of low cost, to compete each other, reduce the quality. But all of you, the “Hyundai Defenders” you question this common sense and keep telling me “No, that’s not truth, all the auto makers increase quality”. Finally, who is wrong” who is right?

Conclusion till now: Hyundai cheat us because occasionaly sold us cars with low quality. They are not a few cars. They are lot of cars. A serious and important indication is that of the low resale value. Think about...

And see a nice short video and I would like to question it. Especially watch the period from 1min53sec. to 3min10sec. (it explains the quality matter of korean cars). :cwm27: Enjoy it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KzSfK0EdUY


Sofianopoulos Panayiotis (sofpan) sofpan@yahoo.com

I only retain the cease-fire with lowsonome1999 that didn’t provoke me.
I just gave up, that is all. Obviously, nothing is going to change your mind, no matter how many facts or awards we throw at your thick skull, so why even waste my time. I do come in to read the posts because I find them funny, how Top Gear is the best, BBC is the greatest, Hyundais are horrible, and how car makers reduce quality over the years to reduce costs. Your way of thinking is so far off, it is quite possible, you might be the only one on the planet that has your beliefs. Go to the last 10 seconds of your video you just posted. That 10 seconds almost made it sound like that whole episode was a joke. They talk about how there isn't a single car coming from Korea that's any good, yet, at the very end, they say the Tiburon, or Coupe, is a good car, for a reasonable price. You want my opinion on that video? It sounds to me like they are biased towards VW. They keep referring to VW throughout it, wishing some of the cars would be like a VW, how the car actually does have a really nice interior, just like VW. Here in the states, VW isn't the greatest of car. For the longest time, VW only came with a 2yr/24k mile warranty, and they were constantly on the bottom on JD Powers quality studies, but yet Top Gear seems to think they are the best out there.

I offered you an Olympic cease-fire but you didn't accepted.
I had told that we have between us but if someone except Hudson and you provoke me I would have the right to answer him and I offer you the same right.
I honored the Olympic cease-fire but cjgt2 came and provoke me. I answered to him. That is not a violation of the Olympic cease-fire from me.
Right after, Hudson came and answered me. That is a violation of cease-fire from Hudson to me. What do you expected dear lowsonome1999? Do nothing?
But as you see, I kept honor the cease-fire with you. I wasn't talking to you till now. But even now, I don't speak for the case we have.
I am polite and man of spirit.
I offer you lowsonome1999 and Hudson again Olympic cease-fire.
We'll talk again about our theme right after the Olympics. I hope this time to be a successful cease-fire. :biggrin:
Be carefull: the cease-fire is between me, you and Hudson.
Is somebody else refer to us, we have the right to answer him but no answers between us.
Hudson if he likes he can answer to my last comment and I will not anwer him back. But nothing more!
Is it OK?
Greetings!

I disagree in the issue of the power in the specific TV program (Top Gear). I believe that Top Gear have no need to hunt advertisements. The companies have the need to advertise themselfs at a program like Top Gear. Top Gear has the upper hand.
You believe whatever you want. I've worked in publishing for many years and advertisers wield plenty of power, no matter how big the magazine is...and Top Gear is no exception. Not only do they pay for the advertisements, they provide FREE CARS to test. You NEVER bite the hand that feeds you. Again, you can dream that Top Gear has this otherworldly power over the automotive industry, but it's just not the case.
How is that possible? The raw materials are chosen by the factory and have passed quality control. The standards are the same, chosen by the factory. The production line is the same that the factory builded. So if all the parameters are the same, how only one car can be diseffective?
There are PEOPLE who put these vehicles together. People are not infallible. For that matter, materials vary from batch to batch. And not everything can pass through quality control.
Ten years time I believe is not so big...
Ten years is greater than the expected life of a car. The average lifespan of a car is 7-8 years, so if your car is still running at 10 years, you're doing exceptionally well. Burning oil comes with older engines...parts wear and oil passes by the rings and burns. You can't expect a car not to wear at all after a decade.

If burning oil is the WORST thing you can come up with, you've done very well. There's nothing wrong with your car that wouldn't turn up in a 10-year old Toyota or Opel or Mercedes-Benz that was driven regularly.
For me its obvious that my poor quality car, has a defective engine. Hyundai ought to fix it for free.
I like your enthusiasm, but it's obviously misplaced. There's nothing wrong with your car's engine that doesn't come with age. Hyundai has NO OBLIGATION to fix your car for free. If it were 3-5 years old, I'd defend you...but it's not.

[FONT=Arial]I don’t need stats to show the obvious. I can find many issues about new Hyundais serious problems in the internet.
And you can do exactly the same thing with ANY BRAND, ANY MANUFACTURER, ANY YEAR, of ANY PRODUCT. Nothing's perfect. But, in case you've missed it the other five or six times it has been expressed...your car is OLD. You have yet to express anything defective about your car that any right-thinking person would attribute to Hyundai's build quality. Ten year old cars burn oil...it happens. Ten year old cars creak...it happens all the time.

Hyundai is in the 10th position. So it’s not in the pure cream of Quality.
Tenth is good. Tenth is well above average. Tenth is ahead of brands that you believe to be better than Hyundai. Let's see....where's Mercedes-Benz on that list? How about Audi? How about BMW? How about, your favorite, Opel?
As someone can see in the list [COLOR=red][SIZE=3]some cars brands independently from their top positionings, are rated “DOWN”, like Lexus, Toyota, BMW. What that is showing to us?
The bar is moving upwards. All of the brands are improving in quality. Some brands are moving faster than others. Hyundai, from this survey, is improving its quality at a faster rate than BMW since they swapped positions. Your insistance that quality is going down is just bunk. Today's cars are FAR superior than at any other time in history. The fact that your cheap Accent has survived ten years and remains reliable transportation is a testiment to that. If you had purchased an equivalent inexpensive car 20 or 30 or 40 years earlier, you would be lucky to have the same car on the road 5 years later.

You've stopped being rational in your arguments (assuming that you were at one point rational) and you've just decided to rant, using us as targets. Quality has improved on almost all brands of cars...fact. Hyundais are better today than they were in the past...fact. Your car has outlived the average life expectancy of a car...fact. Hyundais are ranked higher in quality than most brands sold today...fact. Resale value is based on reputation which takes quite a while to change...it is impossible to significantly raise a brand's residual value overnight, or even in 5-10 years....it takes time. Hyundai's resale value today is higher than it was 5 years ago and it's still moving up.

Read this post...read it again...please, read it a third time. If you can PROVE any of it wrong, respond. But PLEASE don't keep reciting the same bogus information over and over.

Hello buddies! :cool:

Did you miss me?

I missed you. You have been good boys. You honored the Olympic cease fire. Congratulations!

Now, as I am a good guy, I will give the opportunity to Hyundai to fix my last unacceptable problem for free (oils burned soon inside my Accent's engine). I am sure that some executives and officers of Hyundai read this forum. So I give them a last chance to solve the problem of my Accent's defective engine.
I give them a deadline.
The deadline is at Sunday 31st of Augoust. If they don't answer me positive to my fair demand, from next Monday, I will start destroying the "reputation" of Hyundai or whatever something like reputation it has. And that, will be very easy for me because Hyundai gives me the "weapons" to do it.
Also, if Hyundai will answer me positive to my fair demand after the deadline, I will rise my demand. I will ask for timeless free service for my Accent. So now, Hyundai has an opportunity to fix easily the problem that Hyundai caused by the dedective engine that my Accent has. After the deadline, it will be much more difficult for Hyundai.

Sofianopoulos Panayiotis (sofpan)
sofpan@yahoo.com

You are insane. There's nothing wrong with your car and any mechanic worth his salt will agree. A ten-year old car burning oil is NOT the problem of the maker. Cars that live to be a decade old are doing very well for themselves.

Hyundai will NOT agree to your little attempt at blackmail, nor should they. Some Accent owner who knows little or nothing about cars isn't going to hold much weight in this argument.

If and when you actually learn that your car is actually doing GOOD for surviving a decade, you'll realize how asinine your request is. But, from your earlier arguments, I'm guessing you'll never come to realize this little truth.

Dear Hudson,
May be I am insane. But if I were insane, nobody would pay attention to me. But you notice what I am saying and answering.

I would like to ask something, all of you, the “Hyundai Defenders” that you are sanes: Can you define cars’ quality? What is cars’ quality for you?

Please all of the “Hyundai Defenders” answer this question. Your opinion is important for me. I respect and study your opinion.

In the meanwhile, enjoy the following small video. Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear presents The Worst Cars of the Century… and yes… Hyundai is among them.
See minutes 32 to 36 at video, right after the Russian Lada. Admire the Hyundai.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_nBaHKswQc&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_nBaHKswQc&feature=related)

Of course it’s a funny video, but it’s a funny video of the worst cars of century, at least, as Top Gear thinks.

Sofianopoulos Panayiotis (sofpan)
sofpan@yahoo.com

Expiration of deadline to Hyundai Motors: Sunday 31st of August. Dear Hyundai Motors you ought to fix for free the defective engine of my Accent. After 31st of August it will be more difficult.

Dear Hudson,
May be I am insane. But if I were insane, nobody would pay attention to me. But you notice what I am saying and answering.
I have no proof of your sanity or insanity. I just have a feeling that you might be leaning away from the sane side of things.

I would like to ask something, all of you, the “Hyundai Defenders” that you are sanes: Can you define cars’ quality? What is cars’ quality for you?
You don't respect anyone's opinion if it differs from your own.

I cannot define "quality" to a point that will satisfy you. I can, however, state that you cannot define the build or design quality of an entry-level car simply by the fact that it burns oil after ten years. You bought a disposible car, one that wasn't not supposed to be on the road forever. Ten years is ANCIENT for such a car. You should be PRAISING Hyundai for building a car that rattles a little and burns some oil after a decade.

If you had complained about these things in 1999 or 2000, I would come to your side and defend you. In 2008, you're just annoying the manufacturer with your petty complaints.

Dear Hudson,
Dear lowsonoma1999,
And every other “Hyundai Defender”,
I believe that generally I don’t know as much as you know about cars, because my profession is not relative about cars. Thus, I want to know your opinion about cars’ quality.

What do you think for cars quality. Can you define it? With details please…

Of course I have the common sense to judge everybody’s opinion.

I had ask the same question to lowsonoma1999 in comment #20 (page 2nd), before the Olympics and have no answer yet. I believe that he forgot it.

So dear Hudson, lowsonoma1999 and every other “Hyundai Defender”, what do you consider a quality car (details please…)?

Otherwise, I would think that you avoid to answer this question. I ask for your opinion about cars’ quality, not mine. I know mine.

As for me, I have answered this question, about what I consider a quality car, in comment #20.
I copy – paste my answer: “I consider a car industry has quality, when its cars are durable, last with no important problems for 15-20 years (my friend’s Kadett is 30 years, so 20 years it’s not large time period – Ofcourse for you that have a different opinion about quality is large), have non expensive maintenance costs and have strong after sales service, showing respect to each customer- sofpan”.
------------- --------------- ---------------

Coming back to Hyundai’s good cars, lets see the off road performance of Hyundai’s Tucson 4x4 vehicle. See link:

Poor performance of Tucson at little mud


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMeOK4MTK0A


Tucson stuck in mud…


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqJXQLF0y48



Watch now what are the really good 4x4 vehicles are doing:

Land Rover “swimming” in mud


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2rh9rwfbE0&feature=related


Other 4x4 passing from large mud bog


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrN57O-sWPs


Oh! I forgot! ...Of course! Hyundai has also the Santa Fe 4x4...
Well, lets see the triumphs of Santa Fe...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yMBCk5SNLs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yMBCk5SNLs)


Congratulations Hyundai for your off road performance!


Ah! I also forgot… the Russian Lada Niva 4x4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sPCSUA6WrA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBZyxPS05zY


Even the Russian Lada Niva, that many people think it’s not worthing, as you can see, is very strong off road and better than Hyundai’s 4x4. Hyundai 4x4... :banghead:


Whoever has eyes, can see… Now you know… if you want a real, strong 4x4, Hyundai has no good solution.


Sofianopoulos Panayiotis (sofpan)
sofpan@yahoo.com


Expiration of deadline to Hyundai Motors: Sunday 31st of August. Dear Hyundai Motors you ought to fix for free the defective engine of my Accent. After 31st of August it will be more difficult.

Admire the Lada Niva...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gq2M62c0vw

From the videos that I have seen of 4x4 vehicles, I think that russian Lada is the best... and consider that the price of Lada Niva is about 60% (much cheaper) of Hyundai's 4x4.
Lada Niva is the cheaper 4x4 comparable with any brand and looks to me that its the best of all 4WD.

Jesus Christ!!! Lada submarine...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4kWYvH0_oY

Awesome!!!

Hyundai 4x4??? Why??? When you can have Lada?

As for me, I have answered this question, about what I consider a quality car, in comment #20.
I copy – paste my answer: “I consider a car industry has quality, when its cars are durable, last with no important problems for 15-20 years (my friend’s Kadett is 30 years, so 20 years it’s not large time period – Ofcourse for you that have a different opinion about quality is large), have non expensive maintenance costs and have strong after sales service, showing respect to each customer- sofpan”.
Quality should be defined by the attributes given to the vehicle at production. Having nice textures and superior fit-and-finish of its parts add to the vehicle's quality rating. Having the car last 15-20 years speaks to its DURABILITY, not necessarily the vehicle's quality of design. In the automotive world, praising a 20 year old car is like saying that everyone should live to be 110 because I can show you people who have done it. Your car is simply an elderly car and it has elderly car problems. I don't expect to live to be 80 or 90 without something failing on me...and I wouldn't expect a car to live to be 10 without something failing on it. The Opel in your example is the EXCEPTION, not the rule. Your Accent fits the rule and it is far from the exception, no matter what brand or manufacturer.

So dear Hudson what of these that you describe has Hyundai in its vehicles?
Does Hyundai has nice textures?
Does Hyundai has superior fit-and-finish of its cars parts?

From my experience, my Accent has average textures, lots of low quality plastic inside (that’s for, when I drive I hear rattles and creaks), lots of plastic parts outside instead of the -better- metal parts (plastic cracks in the long term) and wherever has metal sheets, these are very thin.

Dear Hudson, you avoid –with a clever way- to tell me what is durability for you. You passed this, just saying thinks about my car’s durability and how this in fine for its age. I am not interest in my Accent’s durability performance over the years. I know that.

Tell me dear Hudson and all the other “Hyundai Defenders”, what do you consider of a car’s durability and quality. What factors and parameters you would consider important for a car’s durability and quality over the years. With your answers, I could realize what the average high quality and durability is for every car. Be specific please…

Goodmorning to Americans! :)

So dear Hudson what of these that you describe has Hyundai in its vehicles?
The Accent is average (to above average) quality for cars of its price range. Definitely not the worst in its category. You can't compare the quality of an Accent to that of an Opel or a Mercedes-Benz or a Rolls-Royce...they are four different categories of vehicle.
From my experience, my Accent has average textures, lots of low quality plastic inside (that’s for, when I drive I hear rattles and creaks), lots of plastic parts outside instead of the -better- metal parts (plastic cracks in the long term) and wherever has metal sheets, these are very thin.
And these compare poorly to other inexpensive cars? I doubt it.
Dear Hudson, you avoid –with a clever way- to tell me what is durability for you. You passed this, just saying thinks about my car’s durability and how this in fine for its age. I am not interest in my Accent’s durability performance over the years. I know that.
You didn't ask about durability...you asked about quality.

You may know the condition of your car today, but you don't realize (even though I've tried to state it many different ways) that your inexpensive car has held up very well for its age. You spent roughly €9,000 (2,000,000 GRD?) in 1998 and you're complaining that the materials are cheap?

Dear Hudson, back in 1998 my Accent cost 3,300,000 Greek Drachmas (GRD), that is €9,680.00. Do you know what was my monthly net salary then? About €557. My whole annual income from a year’s salary was about €7,800. That is € 557 x 14 (12 months + 2 months bonus) = €7,800.
That is 1.25x or 125% of my whole annual net salary. So I worked 1 year and a quarter to buy the Accent, without spending nothing from my income. Does it seems cheap to you? For me, it’s not seems cheap at all.

But it seems to me that a car that cost me the whole salary of a year and a quarter and in a decade I have done gradually about 69,000 miles, that is 6,900 miles per year in average – and of course is a very low annual mileage, driving always “gently”, and appears all the problems that I described to my first comment (look in the beginning of the Tread), is not finally a good, quality and durable car and as for my opinion its not worthing. :cya:

One of my co-workers, has a Nissan Micra for two years. She has done 58,460 miles (or 29,230 miles per year in average – much more than I have done in average), with no important issues. She had only one important issue that the hydraulic steering wheel became for some reason very “hard” to use it, like it lost its liquid. And because the car is 2 years old is covered by the warranty (= no cost to fix it). Do you compare the Nissan Micra to my Hyundai Accent, that are comparable cars in size, engine and price? :disappoin
It seems to me that just, some auto manufactures has quality and some others have not.

You said that “Accent is to above average quality for cars of its price range”. You use the term “of its price range”. That is an artful dodge from you Hudson. :smokin:

I know that in every sector that we are taking action in our life, if we like to be good and leading in our business and jobs, we must aim high. And if we aiming high, phrases like “above average of its price range” can not belong to our vocabulary.
I don’t like these phrases. In Greece we have a traditional saying: “Between the blinds, the monocular rules”. What are you saying dear Hudson? You are saying that Accent and Hyundai generally, has above average quality for the money we spend to buy its cars. In other words you are saying Hyundai that has above average quality in its price range = monocular that rules among the blinds (other auto makers that have the same bad or even worse quality). I don’t like this logic, I don’t accept it.
:runaround: Dear readers of our Thread, do you like this logic (that seems that Hyundai Motors has adopted)? or do you prefer your money to have real value, buing products with real good quality and durability?
Dear Hudson I prefer the logic to aim high, not average. For me, First is the Best, Faq the Rest.

So my friend Hudson, can you define what is exactly (with details) quality and durability in a car?
--------------------------------------………………--------------------------------------
Ehhh… the rest of “Hyundai Defenders”, don’t you have an opinion? Can you define what is exactly (with details) quality and durability in a car?
I start to believe that you avoid to answer. :comprage1
--------------------------------------………………--------------------------------------
Expiration of deadline to Hyundai Motors: Sunday 31st of August. Dear Hyundai Motors you ought to fix for free the defective engine of my Accent. After 31st of August it will be more difficult (see comment #49).

Dear Hudson, back in 1998 my Accent cost 3,300,000 Greek Drachmas (GRD), that is €9,680.00. Do you know what was my monthly net salary then? About €557. My whole annual income from a year’s salary was about €7,800. That is € 557 x 14 (12 months + 2 months bonus) = €7,800.
That is 1.25x or 125% of my whole annual net salary. So I worked 1 year and a quarter to buy the Accent, without spending nothing from my income. Does it seems cheap to you? For me, it’s not seems cheap at all.
There's your problem. You are expecting a car that was less than €10,000 to be of similar quality of vehicles twice or more the price, just because it was expensive TO YOU! I feel for you and your relatively expensive purchase, but it has served you well over the past ten years. That €10,000 purchase cost you only €83 a month, plus any repairs. That sounds like a great deal to me. But now you want to punish Hyundai for the fact that YOU could not afford an Opel. How does that make any sense?

One of my co-workers, has a Nissan Micra for two years. She has done 58,460 miles (or 29,230 miles per year in average – much more than I have done in average), with no important issues.
The Accent is a size LARGER than the Micra. When you compare the Micra to the Hyundai Atoz, you'll see that the Micra is about 20% more expensive.

[FONT=Arial]You said that “Accent is to above average quality for cars of its price range”. You use the term “of its price range”. That is an artful dodge from you Hudson. :smokin:
It's only because I have a brain and I realize that you can't compare two different classes of products. I wish you could see that.

I know that in every sector that we are taking action in our life, if we like to be good and leading in our business and jobs, we must aim high. And if we aiming high, phrases like “above average of its price range” can not belong to our vocabulary.
Here's a nice little saying for you: don't compare apples and oranges. You can't compare two products that are not meant to be rivals. A vehicle that sells in one price class with another in a higher price class. There's a reason why the less expensive car costs less...the materials may not be as high quality, but when you compare to OTHER VEHICLES of the same ilk, you'll see that some bubble to the top. Your Hyundai is NOT one of the bottom dwellers. And you keep assuming that a 1998 entry-level Hyundai is a good measure of what Hyundai makes in 2008. Wake up...that's THREE GENERATIONS of Accent later.

There's a reason why the less expensive car costs less...the materials may not be as high quality, but when you compare to OTHER VEHICLES of the same ilk, you'll see that some bubble to the top. Your Hyundai is NOT one of the bottom dwellers.
Thanks Hudson that you admitted that my Hyundai is not above average… This is a kindly confession by you…that my Accent is a bad car. Be careful, not the worst that I could buy but certainly, a bad car. I agree with you. And of course as I have mentioned at a past comment, that couldn’t happen a negative miracle and only my Accent produced badly, in the factory of Hyundai, in the production line of Hyundai, with the raw materials that Hyundai had chose, with the production standards that Hyundai had adopted, with the quality controls that Hyundai used. Lots of others cars that produced in the same production line with the same procedures, produced badly.

The Accent is a size LARGER than the Micra. When you compare the Micra to the Hyundai Atoz, you'll see that the Micra is about 20% more expensive…. Here's a nice little saying for you: don't compare apples and oranges. You can't compare two products that are not meant to be rivals.
Dear Hudson, the saying is correct but it’s not apply to the example that I gave. Micra is little smaller in dimensions (length) than Accent, but the Engine Is the Same (1300 cc or 1.3L). To be more specific, Micra is producing from 1.0L (1000 cc) to 1.3L (1300 cc) engine. The Micra that I mentioned was a 1.3L. So Accent and 1.3L Micra are comparable. And the comparison is this: this particular Micra that I spoke for, has done in 2 years 58,460 miles (or 29,230 miles per year in average – much more than I have done in average), with only one important issue, covered by the warranty. The owner of that Micra, probably in the next year (3rd), will reach the miles that I have done in 10-11 years. I repeat and emphasize, Micra till now has only one important issue, covered by the warranty.
Do you believe dear Hudson that in the next year that Micra will reach –and probably pass- the miles that I have done gradually in 11 years, Micra will have more problems than my Accent in the 11 years?
Do you believe that Micra will start burning lots of oils inside its engine in the next -3rd- year?
Do you believe that Micra will start burning lots of oils inside its engine in the 4th year, with much more miles than my Accent?
I don’t think so. From this comparison, seems that the two cars are comparable to price and engine but they are not comparable to quality, reliability and durability. Micra is by far better than Accent. :bananadie Read again my first comment of the Thread to remind yourself the total problems that I had in my Accent –not only the last important: oils burn inside the engine- and answer me.
Do you compare the Nissan Micra to my Hyundai Accent, that are comparable cars in size, engine and price?

And you keep assuming that a 1998 entry-level Hyundai is a good measure of what Hyundai makes in 2008. Wake up...that's THREE GENERATIONS of Accent later.
The Accent model didn’t appeared in 1998 that I bought it. If I remember well, Accent appeared in 1995. So Hyundai Motors back in 1998, had already 3 years of feedback and experience in the quality and driving behavior of Accent and the Company has the opportunity to improve it. If Hyundai Motors wanted to improve it. But as you can see, it came year 1998, after 3 years of Accent’s production and Accent still produced without quality. And of course if someone have bought the same “first generation” Accent in years 1999 and 2000, would have the same cars with no quality.
Furthermore, maybe the Accents of the period 1995-2000 were the model’s “first generation”, but in the reality, Accent was the development – evolution of a previous 1.3L model, the Hyundai Excel (I think that in US named Pony). Hyundai Excel was in the markets about 10 years. So if I count the timelife of Excel plus Accent, in this category of cars (1.3L/1300 cc and same dimensions), Hyundai Motors in 1998 had almost 15 years of experience.
Did Hyundai Motors used this experience? No! Probably Hyundai Motors hadn’t the intention to use the experience, because wanted to produce cheap cars (with no quality).
So dear Hudson I don’t think that the 1998 Accent was an entry-level model and I don’t think that the model’s “generations” cause improvements in the cars. The improvements caused by the intention of the manufactures to use their experience and feed back and build improved cars. I believe that Hyundai Motors never had this intention. Hyundai Motors is producing from time to time some good cars, to make impressions and take some good ratings from some cars’ organizations (like JD Power) and finally, to confuse the consumers. The proof of that is the very low resale value, after all these years of production activity (must be 30 years that Hyundai is active in world’s cars market).

You are expecting a car that was less than €10,000 to be of similar quality of vehicles twice or more the price, just because it was expensive TO YOU! I feel for you and your relatively expensive purchase, but it has served you well over the past ten years. That €10,000 purchase cost you only €83 a month, plus any repairs. That sounds like a great deal to me.
It didn’t serve me well in the decade. It served me well the first 6-7 years. The most of the important problems that I describe to you in my first comment in this Thread, appeared from the 7th year.
So if someone asked me if I am pleased with my Accent in years 1 to 6, I would have answered him that it’s not a car for fast drivers, has not strong horsepower, but it’s a decent car, because it cost me relatively cheap, has no important issues but I pay for that, in the expensive authorized Service and finally, it’s a value for the money car. But my opinion change dramatically from year 7+. I realized that although it has an expensive service, it didn’t make it to show durability in the long term (with little mileage and gradually, “gently” use).
Does this sounds like a great deal to you? Not to me!

Dear Hudson you gave my an idea with the per month cost that you mentioned.
Let’s compare my Accent with an X brand of the same engine’s size.





Accent 1.3L

X brand 1.3L




Initial Cost to Buy

9.600 €

14.000 €





Total Cost of Annual Service
(3 services per year x 250Euro each)

750 €

750 €





Cost of Repairs per Year

100 €

60 €





Expected lifetime of car

15 years

22 years





Total Cost of Service in whole Lifetime

11.250 €

16.500 €





Total Cost of Repairs in whole Lifetime

1.500 €

1.320 €





Total Cost (Initial+Service+Repairs)

22.350 €

31.820 €





Cost me per Year

1.490,0 €

1.446,4 €





Cost me per Month

124,2 €

120,5 €







In the Table above (it doesn't appear well), we can see the Initial Cost to Buy the two cars (9600 euros for Accent, 14000 for the X brand) , the Total Cost of Annual Service (that is 3 services per year x €250 in average), the Cost of Repairs per Year (yes in Accent is bigger than the X brand), the Expected Lifetime of each car (also the X brand is expected to live at least 7 years more than Accent), the Total Cost of Service in the whole Lifetime, the Total Repairs’ Cost in Lifetime, the Total Cost (has all the previous costs), the Cost me per year and Cost me per month.


From this comparison we can see that Accent is worse, so is not worthing.


The imaginary X brand is realistic. I just don’t want to mention a specific brand.
And consider that I have favored Accent in this comparison, just because is my recent car. I favour Accent at:

the Total Cost of Annual Service because I have confirmed from my friends that other Japs and European Cars Brands -more glamorous than Hyundai- have smaller cost service in my Country.
the Fuel’s consumption. If you notice I haven’t consider it. And be sure that the X brand is much more fuel efficient than Accent. I just wanted a more simple example.Ehhh… where are all others “Hyundai Defenders” gone? :attention
All of you –Hudson included- avoid to tell me what is a cars quality and durability. Why is that?
Because Hyundai has not such things.

Cheers,
Panayiotis Sofianopoulos (sofpan)
sofpan@yahoo.com (sofpan@yahoo.com)

Expiration of deadline to Hyundai Motors: Sunday 31st of August. Dear Hyundai Motors you ought to fix for free the defective engine of my Accent. After 31st of August it will be more difficult (see comment #49).