Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG

Thanks man. I appreciate all that. I agree with everything you said about the shop and them not really caring if my battery goes or not, cause usually they are too busy to care or to remember.

Despite that though, I disconnected the battery as soon as I got the van back from the other shop it sat at for 6 months, with nothing done to it. I charged it up to just over 13 volts and its been sitting the past month in the trunk. I checked it earlier today and its at 12.74 volts still, so I imagine the battery is still in good shape despite its 6 month sit at the other shop.

Starter - I didn't know they generated all that heat during startup, but I am now sure of why the starter went out. OIL. One of the tech's at the 6-month-sit-shop poured oil all over the place... it was so thick it was puddled at the top of the power steering pump and ran all the way down to the starter. The starter actually looks "blackened" on the outer end (passenger side) of it around the edges and plating. So, not only did that shop waste my time for 6 months, lose one of my spare computers, leave the sliding door cracked open and drain my battery.... they also burnt out my starter via carelessness. Only thing I'm lucky about there is they didn't charge me anything. They were supposed to call me back if they'd found my computer and discuss a bill, but it never happened so I never called them back either.

Tomorrow (really today now) at some point I'm going over to install the new starter and hookup the battery, but before I crank it I'm going to clean off that bolt/ground point on the rear head that I think isn't making a good connection due to "paint" coating the head. I'll do the voltage tests you said a few posts back and also I'm gonna put it on my OBD scan computer and see if the short term fuel trims look more normal or "NORMAL" after that tiny fix. If that head ground point solves all this, I just don't know how I'll react..... joy combined with absolute blowout comes to mind.

COULD IT BE THIS SIMPLE?

If they left a door open, there is a timer that shuts off the interior lights after about 45 minutes.
Sitting for 6 months is just plain not good for a vehicle.
I went out to replace the valve cover gaskets on my windstar, which had been sitting for about 2 weeks....and the motor was soaking wet and dripping from condensation.

If there is oil all over the place, it is going to smoke like crazy when you run it and the motor gets warm.....if bad enough....could catch fire.
You want a little oil as possible on the exhaust manifolds and exhaust pipes/catalytic converters.....you know how a couple drops can smoke.
I would use brake clean to clean it off, but cover electrical items like the alternator.
Also try to avoid run off down onto the exhaust components.
If oil got onto the serpentine belt......remove it.....clean up the pulleys.....and install a NEW belt (I know this from experience).

:dogpile::dogpile::dogpile::dogpile::dogpile:

Well, yesterday (thought I haven't slept yet) I went to the shop thats been holding my van hostage since I towed it back over a month ago. I went on their day off to install the new starter, put the battery back in and fiddle with that ground bolt on the rear bank head.

I actually got the starter in there pretty darn fast. I was impressed with myself. My 3000GT is doubling as a tool shed at the moment to fix the van. :) lol

I next moved onto the ground bolt at the rear bank head.

See the attached photo, and I do have to apologize for its crudeness, but I had a shakey cell phone and to hold the light when I took the pic too.
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/GroundWireNeedleInHaystack.JPG

That thing in the center that looks like a yellow starburst from the flashlight is the bolt head.

I brought sand paper with me to sand off any paint or corrosion from each surface on the ground strap end, head and the black bracket. Upon inspection of this setup I realized something...... a HUGE ..... "DUHHHHHHHHHH!!!"..... yet its been hiding in this spot all along because its hard to see. The huge DUHHHHH is that the ground strap was on top of the black bracket, which is on top of the head and all bolted down together via the same bolt. That black paint coating does not transmit current AT ALL. I know this from having to sand off the black bar at the alternator before.

As I was sanding/scrapping everything to raw metal, I realized... why on Earth is the ground strap bolted on top of the black bracket to begin with. Didn't make sense, so after I sanded everything and cleaned it up a bit, I put it back together like so: head to ground strap to black bracket to bolt..... so NOW the ground strap is touching the head surface directly.

As I did this I felt very good about doing it....because ... this is the last known ground point on the van that I could verify by SIGHT that looked like it would not be well grounded "AT ALL" and more importantly this ground feeds right into the PCM wiring harness to the computer.

Battery - As if to just mess with my head the battery went in nicely all except for the positive battery clamp... its been used on/off so much that it no longer grips the battery terminal well.... so I had to get creative and take it all apart and rebend it in different ways to get it to grip again.

NOW...... wa-la..... after 7 months of SITTING through FREEZES and lots of COLD/HOT temperature changes (I did let the crankcase air out while I was doing all the work; popped off the oil cap) the van is now in a condition where it can "START".

Upon starting it I now notice a very loud groan from the power steering pump. Having not been told anything was done to the pump, I began to think. I checked the fluid and it was extremely low. Apparently they'd removed the pump when it sat for 6 months at that out of town shop and didn't tell me... and then didn't refill it properly.

I also notice upon starting it up that the Check Engine light is on. I got my computer out (had it with me) and got the code: P0135. O2 Sensor Bank 1 Sensor 1 heater circuit malfunction etc...
Thanks Wiswind: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=677408&highlight=P0135
Thats right where I went as soon as I came home and saw it.

Well, as I'm off to Oreilly's I recall that the 6-month-wait shop had told me they'd disconnected the O2 sensors for testing. One would figure they'd reconnect them right? WRONG. On my trip home I grabbed my ramps to put the van up on and by this time its night time and I'm still over at the shop's parking lot working on the van. The only O2 sensor that got plugged back in was the one in the very front of the van. All 3 other sensors were unplugged.

Plug'em in. Clear the codes with my computer, pour some power steering fluids and Lucas power steering stop leak in the power steering pump for good measure, and I let the van run a while.

With help, I went to get gas and decided to drive the van home.

EXCITEMENT RINGING IN !!!!!! It isn't acting quite right, but it's also been sitting with no battery power (no learned strategy in the computer) and probably has a little water in the gas tank and crankcase. Still, it seems to be running fairly well.

I tested the voltages from battery neg to chassis and batt neg to engine block and forgive me, but I don't have the sheet of paper with me at the moment to post what it was, but the variations as it ran seemed to be in the millivolts "mV". What I did notice though was that unlike before, the alternator seemed to be holding more steady with constant voltage at around 14.25" with head lights and a/c on !!!.... as well as when they were off too.

Now I'm just getting too excited. I decide (on the eve of a Beach vacation to Navarre Beach (near Pensacola, FL)) to drive the van around last night a round trip of about 60 miles to see if my 1 little ground strap spiffing up by some miracle of a chance fixes my gas mileage problem. Not sure how to feel or if I should "HOPE" because the idle was still doing that "near stall" thing, though not nearly as bad as usual.

I noticed a few misfires on the road, but I've attributed that to it sitting up and "assuming" there was some water to blow out of the gas tank. I put in a can of B12 Chemtool last night too to try to help counteract any stagnant fuel problems.

As I drove it more and set it on cruise control, it felt more and more like a normal vehicle. I could not believe it..... I was driving my Windstar for what seemed to be in "NORMAL OPERATION" for the first time in over 2 years and 3 months.

By the time I had gotten home last night, I'd gone just a mile shy of 60 miles and the gas gauge had moved "ALMOST" 1/8 a tank down. If I were to calculate that for a full tank that could mean I might be getting 480 miles per tank, which would be 80 miles better than the original engine setup. If this is true I think I just may cry in the next couple of days, because all the improvements I made to get better gas mileage may finally be paying off.

I AM ELATED..... I AM ECSTATIC... I AM IN DISBELIEF..... DID I REALLY GO DRIVING MY WINDSTAR AROUND LAST NIGHT FOR 60 MILES AND ONLY SEE THE GAS TANK DROP 1/8 ????????? IS THIS POSSIBLE???? IS THE DAMN THING FINALLY FIXED??????:lol2:

AT THIS POINT I MUST SAY THAT I AM %75% SURE I HAVE SOLVED THE GAS MILEAGE PROBLEM. TO REFRESH, I WAS GETTING 6 - 9 MPG REGARDLESS OF IN TOWN OR HWY DRIVING.

I AM GOING TO FLORIDA ON MONDAY - SATURDAY AND I WILL KNOW FULL WELL THEN WHAT TYPE OF GAS MILEAGE I'M GETTING. I'M TAKING THE PLUNGE WITH IT. IT IS REALLY RUNNING THAT GOOD FOR ME TO MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO "REALLY USE IT" !!!!!!! HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!! OMG YOU GUYS ARE PROBABLY THE ONLY ONES THAT KNOW AND FEEL JUST HOW INSANELY HAPPY I AM.

I can't thank you all enough..... I really cannot. I am a little reserved though. I'm leaving myself open to a possible 25% disappointment given the history of this beast of a problem. If I make it back from Florida with no bad events, I will most certain rule it 100% fixed!!!!!! :) LOLLLL

omg..... I can't believe this dreadful saga is coming to an end.... and all because of 1 single ground wire and a lack of attention to detail in putting it back the right way when reassembling the engine.

Someone get me a beer.... I can't get up..... I'm just ..... just... I just can't believe it..... wait I don't need a beer... I need sleep. LOL - GOOD DAY... GOOD NIGHT !

Don't forget to tell the shop that you got your vehicle......so they don't report it stolen.
Also.....drive that thing around town a good bit before taking off on any long distance trip.
I would also change the oil and filter as it has been sitting around a lot.
Check your air filter and tire pressure, etc also.

One other thing......don't run the gasoline tank down to empty this time......I would fill up, say at 1/2 tank (or sooner, if fuel economy seems too good to be true) just in case the gauge/sender is inaccurate....sticking from sitting too long.
Just to avoid running out of fuel.....which is very hard on your fuel pump.

I had a look at a map to see where New Orleans is and I was surprised to find it down on the coast - I always thought it was much further north, and inland. Anyway, that looks like a round trip of over 400 miles so it should allow you to get a good feel for how the van is performing. Have a safe trip, and I hope the van runs well.

Anybody know if he made it back? :) No posts since this last one three weeks ago.

HELLO ALL !!!!!!! I'm sorry its taken me so long to get back with you all, but I've been very busy since the trip. YES I DID MAKE IT BACK HOME!!! HA HA HAAA!!

The van performed ok on the roads/interstates, though unfortunately after all this I've realized I have a transmission fluid leak. It is very slow and I will just watch it and refill as necessary. The transmission complains even being 1/4 low.

Something about the van's pickup on the interstate makes me feel like I'm not getting all the power I could be. I can still pass people ok, but it seems to me like it takes longer than it did on the original engine.

I had thought it was only the transmission low fluid giving me shifting blips on the road, but that isn't the case.

ANYWAY, THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT THE GAS MILEAGE IS BACK!!! I FINALLY CAN DRIVE IT WITHIN REASONABLY COST SAVING GAS MILEAGE!!! I AM SOMEWHERE NEAR 20MPG, BUT NOT QUITE. IT MAY BE 18 - 19 AND THATS FULLY LOADED WITH 4 PEOPLE AND A FULL LOAD OF LUGGAGE ETC..

When I'm alone driving I can get more mileage out of it. I was expecting more than I'm getting due to all the things I've done, and modded a couple things, but while it may see finally this is over I don't think it is.

Don't mistake.... I'm extremely happy right now!!! ... BUT... The original title of this thread was/is: "Attempts stall" at the prefix of the title. I have fixed the latter half of the problem (the gas mileage), but the damn idle issues are still present.

The cabin lights (and headlights) though still show "dimming" during idle. They do not dim much, but it can be noticed by the eye. I wonder if that ground wire being off the head for so long may have ruined my new alternator or the battery? I still never did Selectron's recommended tests, because I got excited about my finding & fixing. I still think I should do those tests since I still have dimming, but I don't know when I will get around to it as I have a lot going on right now.

I had always believed that if I found the cause of the gas mpg problem that the idle problem would've gone away immediately, but this has not been the case. I believe I am having "hot start" problems still. There are no codes and with gas mileage back to near normal it is hard to swallow this, but its there.

One day coming back from home depot (wasn't in there more than 5-10 minutes) I could not start the van. Of all the times I'd tried to start it since I put the new starter in, this was the only time it didn't start. It was trying very hard, turning very fast (starter), and seemed to have strong current pushing it, but the engine just would not turn over. All I did was wait a couple minutes after removing the key, and it started right up after that and has done so since then every time.

All other times I have hot started it, (to me) it seems to "shake" the van more than when you'd start it from cold.... and it drags ever so slightly more so before finally turning over when "hot" vs "cold". Cold starts, start right up immediately.

Big helpful news here (ya'll will dig this; especially electro-man Selectron) - I just bought a Ford Rotunda Breakout Box. Ebay is wonderful! I'd been watching Ebay for one in the right price range for years and finally I saw one for $250. Its nearly new too and tested. For now and in the future, I can now follow the manual's directions and "easily like the pros" test the various circuitry using the TRUE Breakout Box.

I'm not giving up on electrical at this point, but I am more leaning now to the idea that this is a vacuum leak that only reveals itself once the engine is hot. The shop that had my van for 6 months, and never fixed it, claimed they did a smoke test on it, but I do not recall (maybe its in this thread?) if they did a cold and a hot smoke test. Even still the leak may be structurally situated in that it only will inhale air/smoke vs let it out pushing from the inside out. Just my own theory here since I have nothing else to go on.

The guy who I bought the Breakout Box from has many years Ford engine experience and from my description he says that the behavior I've described sounds just like a vacuum leak only revealing when hot too. He thinks it is the intake manifold. Now, that got me thinking. The intake manifold (do we have a lower as well as an upper?) is the same as it was on the original engine. I think I read somewhere that our Windstars leak on the lower intake manifold and get worse (damaging the actual manifold) over time? Is this true? Likely?

This brings me back to thinking about the day I did the spray water testing a long time ago. I was spraying near the intake manifold and spark plug wires, which eventually lead to a CEL misfire #5 code which I now believe was due to the bad ground at the engine head that fixed my gas mileage. I think that spraying grounded/ungrounded/shorted circuitry since the ground at the head was not grounded 90% or at all and in turn blew my #5 wire.

Anyway, when I was spraying the water that time, there were moments when the engine would smooth out completely as it should run even after the radiator fans would turn off. That was the only time I can recall the engine not trying to stall after the radiator fans cut off, since the new engine. I seem to recall someone telling me that the water may have momentarily sealed a hairline leak/crack in the manifold vacuum and thus regulating the idle for a moment until the water was gone.

Or, there may still be a poor ground to the engine and the water may have been temporarily grounding things properly???

This type of hairline intake manifold leak would make sense if it is true, because when cold its contracted and not leaking cause the idle is fine when cold. (Note to self: I should start the van when cold and immediately cut on/off the A/C to see if when the fans go off when the engine is cold if it still tries to stall. I think I've done that before in this thread, but I can't recall the result.) When its heated up, the hairline crack expands and leaks air into the manifold. Hmmmm..... I wonder if monitoring the O2 numbers would tell me where the leak is...because whichever bank is running a lean-mixture (sensed by the computer) should be running richer as a result right; due to adjustments by the computer? Or would it just be "LEAN" on the bank that's got the leak?

If its not a vac leak in the manifold (please anybody speak to if our Winnies have intake manifold leak history) then I would then be lost and just wait till this problem gets worse enough someday to cause a vac leak code.... which I may never see..... cause I think it'd need to see enough pressure leak such as pulling the fuel pressure regulator line off and leaving it off to throw a code.

In any case, it is finally driveable and now can be used for its purpose and all the money invested will finally prove its worth.

I will continue to pursue the idle problem (the last stand) until it is fixed. I will continue to use this thread to bounce off you all and share my findings in hopes this helps others not have to go through what I have to get decent MPG out of their old Winnie or any other vehicle.

BTW - The Florida panhandle trip was nice, but too cold.... too soon to go to the beach. Its the soonest I've ever gone and I guess now I know why I've never gone that soon. I was hoping for a luck out of semi-hot weather, but we were only really able to get on the beach 2 days out of like 5. The rest of the time we went exploring... in the WINDSTAR!

WAITING TO HEAR FROM YA GUYS !!!!!!!! :) WHAT YA THINK?:tongue:

Well....remember that the 1995 3.8L windstar has a completely different upper and lower intake manifold.......does not have the IMRC.......the extra port for each cylinder.
I seem to remember that the 1995 upper intake manifold is alluminum......the only year that was the case.

I have read about this......but not done it.
Tracking down a vaccum leak on a running engine........use a propane torch.....NOT LIT.
With the engine running, at idle...........
You open the valve and have some propane coming out (not a lot) and you move the end of the torch around places that you think the leak might be.
When you get the raw propane near the vaccum leak.....it will be drawn into the engine and cause the RPM to increase momentarily.

Now, when you do this.....you want to be SURE that the A/C is not activated.....as there is normally a increase in RPM when the compressor kicks in.
Also.....when the radiator fans cycle on/off there could be a momentary change in RPM.

If I am completely off base.......someone please correct me........or add helpful hints if you have them.

If i wanted to put a 96-98 intake manifold on my 95 for "more air" and could somehow seal off the areas for the IMRC - would that yield me more HP like the other Winnies?

or

Could I have my intake drilled appropriately to make more airways/ports for what I have now?

Just a thought on more HP. Would be nice to have it in this year Windstar since its the lightest year in weight.

EDIT: Apparently this would cost a lot of money, because it would have to be done to the heads as well and that means big bucks. So, scratch those questions.

I think your propane idea is one I've heard of before. I will look around and see if thats how you do it "for safety reasons only", but I think thats how you do it. I'd need to have some kind of probe/tube attached to it first of all, cause I need to be able to get it in certain areas that are tight.

What about Windstar intakes leaking or "going bad" over time? Anyone heard of this?

Selectron (& Anyone else of course) - Could my "no ground" or "partial ground" that I found at the rear head have caused some of the high voltage cabling to have charred and become less able to carry current? It wasn't driven around like that much at all, but I would say it was at least 1000 - 3000 miles like that.

Guess I need to do those voltage drop tests that you told me to do to be sure right?

The only things that I have read about intakes going bad.......is the lower intake manifold gaskets.
I do NOT know if that would apply to the 1995, but I would expect that it could.

The only other things that I have read about are for 1999 and newer......vaccum leak developing where the IMRC shafts pass through the lower intake manifold........a non-issue on the '95......and I have not read anything about it for the '96-98.
Of course there is the "isolator bolt" issue with the upper intake manifold for 1999 and newer.....also a non-issue for your '95.

With all the vaccum lines running all over the place.......add to that your 2 engine changes.......there are way more opportunities for vaccum leaks than I can begin to list.
Unless you have a "smoking gun" symptom.....like the air going only to the defrost.....or your charcoal canistor giving you issues.........or some other vaccum driven device.


I don't think the propane test is all that dangerous (using common sense).....do it OUTSIDE (not in a garage).
The gas will disipate very quickly......and if it does ignite......you would lift the torch up and away from the motor right away.......so there would not be enough fumes to even heat anything up.
I would NOT have anyone else standing near you.....so....should the torch light up (you will hear the change in sound) you won't end up sticking in to someone else's face or hair.

That's a dramatic improvement in the fuel economy eh - pleased to hear it, and I hope you'll soon make similar progress on the idling problem.

Could my "no ground" or "partial ground" that I found at the rear head have caused some of the high voltage cabling to have charred and become less able to carry current? It wasn't driven around like that much at all, but I would say it was at least 1000 - 3000 miles like that.

Guess I need to do those voltage drop tests that you told me to do to be sure right?

I'm not sure that I really understand the question. The only high voltage cabling that you have is the spark plug wires, and the bad ground connection would have been completely irrelevant to them because when the spark jumps the plug gap it is grounded immediately by the engine.

Maybe you meant something else though. If that ground connection was making poor contact - i.e. high resistance, then that extra resistance would cause less current to flow in any circuits which relied on it to complete the path to ground, hence there would actually be less likelihood of the wires being damaged.

If the ground connection was very high resistance or open-circuit then the current from those circuits would follow any alternative path to ground instead, perhaps via paths which were never intended to carry ground current, causing unintended effects along the way.

The voltage drop tests which I suggested were to verify the health or otherwise of four cables (and associated connections) specifically, but they wouldn't tell you anything about the condition of any wiring elsewhere on the van. They were the main ground from battery negative to transmission housing, the ground from engine to chassis at the alternator, and the cable between alternator output terminal and battery positive, which is in two sections, being split at the fusebox. I would still recommend doing them because they may turn up something unexpected, but if not then it gives you peace of mind knowing that you've eliminated them.

I experienced a similar problem recently with the wife's 99. I finally found a vacuum leak @ the plenum (intake manifold). A New gasket set and proper torque sequence/ value and "Everything's coming up roses". Until that is... the next FAILURE!!! I HATE this vehicle!!!

Hope this helps.

First and foremost, recently I have replaced my VSS due to it failing. After installing the new BWD brand VSS (using the same old gear) I am now experiencing the best ride and performance (shifting mainly) that I've ever experienced while driving the van. It used to shift herky jerky coming down past 2nd gear, and now all gears are as smooth as butter.

However, since the new VSS, a new MPG downside has arisen. Prior to this I was getting 400 miles per 25 gallon tank of gas, which is what the original engine always used to get. Since the new VSS was installed I am now seeing 360 miles per tank reliably. The battery was never disconnected to reset the computer, but I reset the computer myself via my laptop and OBD program to get rid of the codes. I'm still thinking I have an electrical anomaly somewhere.

That's a dramatic improvement in the fuel economy eh - pleased to hear it, and I hope you'll soon make similar progress on the idling problem.


Yes, it is, but unfortunately the issue has taken another crappy turn.


I'm not sure that I really understand the question. The only high voltage cabling that you have is the spark plug wires, and the bad ground connection would have been completely irrelevant to them because when the spark jumps the plug gap it is grounded immediately by the engine.

Maybe you meant something else though. If that ground connection was making poor contact - i.e. high resistance, then that extra resistance would cause less current to flow in any circuits which relied on it to complete the path to ground, hence there would actually be less likelihood of the wires being damaged.


Well, it definitely was making poor contact. That ground point was the "main" culprit, but its not over yet. When I said "high voltage cables" I was referring to the heavier gauge battery/alternator cabling, but you answered my question there.


If the ground connection was very high resistance or open-circuit then the current from those circuits would follow any alternative path to ground instead, perhaps via paths which were never intended to carry ground current, causing unintended effects along the way.


That last part - paths which were never intended to carry ground current, etc.. - Yeap... this is why I think I lost my VSS recently. It could've been a bad VSS from the start, but more on that in a moment.


The voltage drop tests which I suggested were to verify the health or otherwise of four cables (and associated connections) specifically, but they wouldn't tell you anything about the condition of any wiring elsewhere on the van. They were the main ground from battery negative to transmission housing, the ground from engine to chassis at the alternator, and the cable between alternator output terminal and battery positive, which is in two sections, being split at the fusebox. I would still recommend doing them because they may turn up something unexpected, but if not then it gives you peace of mind knowing that you've eliminated them.

I realize these tests are short to do and I should just go do them, but I've been very busy and in bad financial condition lately so I've been pushing things like this back as long as the van is drivable within a decent range of reliability and use of fuel, until recently.

As some of you might've seen recently in another thread, my VSS went out and funny enough it went out the same time Wiswind's did (in hilly or moutainous areas) on a big trip. This isn't the first component thats just "popped" or gone out on its own, like a few of the other components have though I am guessing those were electrically related like when the MAF element literallly popped itself in half.

After about 500 miles of traveling the van started shifting erratically. Luckilly i had my laptop and obdii cable with me and was able to see it was the VSS. Long story short, I heard what sounded like a high pitch air sound from the engine bay after all those miles and I thought it was the long thought intake manifold leak I suspect, but now I wonder if it was the "whine" of the VSS gone bad. The only way to know for sure would be to drive 300 to 500 miles again after sustained use/heat and see if I hear it again.

Recently I came back from a 160 mile drive and I decided to plug in my laptop and obdii connector while driving on the interstate on the way back home and monitored the results as best as I can. I don't know what you all know about some of these figures and noticed behaviors, but here goes:


All hot starts seem to drag a bit and the engine shakes excessively, IE: It does not feel like a smooth cold start as all cold starts feel. The amount it shakes during hot starts isn't horrible, but it is noticeable to the trained person.
On MOST HOT STARTS - Engine holds at 1350 RPMs (the hash mark on dash between 1000 and 1500) and sometimes waivers between 1250 - 1350 RPMs like its "thinking" or something. The wavering it does is similar or the same degree of wavering it does when it nearly stalls at regular idle RPMs. Now, I know that most cars have built-in fast idle for cold starts, but I can't recall any car I've driven that idles higher than normal idle speed when it is already HOT (like HOT from a few seconds or minutes ago).
At any moment, as soon as I just feather the gas pedal it immediately levels off and goes down to around 700-750 RPMs (normal idle). If I do nothing at all, eventually the idle drops to normal idle speed on its own after about 30 seconds to a minute.
This makes me think TPS or ECT, which are both original. Thoughts?
Several times during my datalogging session or scanning of the computers outputs while on the road at 60 - 75 mph the program errored out and said: Vehicle Data Corrupted or Checksum Error - I learned while driving that I could reproduce this by doing the following things and I'm sure that it wasn't due to the data cable moving around:

The moment I engage cruise control
1 time it did it when I pushed the accelerator after having let off it for a while
1 time it did it when I turned on the headlights
Now, what this makes me think is TPS. Thoughts?


At cruise 75 mph - MAF airflow was 35 to 45 g/s and mostly steady at 33 - 34 g/s
At cruise 75 mph - Long Term Fuel Trim Bank 1 O2 - 2.34% to 4.69% - +Rich
At cruise 75 mph - Long Term Fuel Trim Bank 2 O2 - 2.34% unchanging - +Rich
At cruise 75 mph - Short Term Fuel Trim Bank 1 O2 - 0% to 4.69% - More Rich than Lean - 4 Rich'es to every 1 Lean reported
At cruise 75 mph - Short Term Fuel Trim Bank 2 O2 - 2.34% to 3.91% mostly; less often other times its 0.00% to 1.78%- More Rich than Lean - 4 Rich'es to every 1 Lean reported
LTFT at idle after trip - Bank 1 5.47% +Rich
LTFT at idle after trip - Bank 2 1.56% +Rich
Count 4 Leans to every 1 Rich at Idle on both Banks
Wide Open Throttle at idle = 78.9% on the datalogger - Shouldn't this show 100% or near it? Or because of a rev limiter it doesn't? I didn't do a WOT test on highway.

Besides all the numbers, to me there seems to be either STILL an electrical problem in the wiring somewhere, or the TPS may be going bad or the ECT may be going bad too and the only reason I say that about the ECT is because I don't understand why else the idle would be high on a hot start unless it wasn't able to figure out how hot the engine was at that moment.

Everything I read says LTF's +/-5% are sign of healthy engine. On other engines I have heard people talk about whine of the camshaft position sensor, the shaft or gearing or such, could your whine be that? TPS is pretty cheap to change, why not. I assume you scan tool can read air, cooant temp and all sensors, so if they are all good, I think the question is, is PCM commanding high idle hot, or is it the IAC not responsing to command to lower idle?

I keep forgetting about some states upping the speed limits to 70 and above.
Once you go over 60mph, the fuel economy really goes down.
Even though my '96 road very nicely at those higher speeds, I tried to keep it below 70.....for fuel economy.

:frown: P0305 - Cylinder 5 Misfire again

This comes after 2 new sets of wires and plugs and after the VSS just recently went out (previous few posts). I've yet to determine if its the plug, wire, or ignition coils, but last time this code happened was when I was doing the water spraying testing while it was running and the spark wire had seemingly gone bad..... or I think that was it .... have to check back in this thread.

This happened as soon as I started the engine after it had sat for about a full 7 day week in very high humidity 85 - 99% and raining sometimes.

The A/C clutch seemed to not know when to engage and thus did so extremely loudly.

To me (would like ya'lls opinion too) this says I still have an electrical problem.

I think like Selectron said, that there is still instability electrically and thus electricity is searching for a way out through various components.

I am thinking about replacing the entire engine bay PCM harness. :( I will probably start though (now that I'm forced to again) with the voltage drop tests Selectron mentioned, that I've been putting off, and go from there.

I also am going to take this opportunity to put the Breakout Box I bought to the test. I'm going to log every voltage and data value I can and compare it to the values I have on my service manual CD-ROM. The problem is, I don't know if I should perform this test before or after fixing the P0305 issue, as would it skew the test results with the engine not running smoothly?

If I determine a voltage drop issue I'm going to upgrade the grounding system in the engine bay with something I came up with on paper a while back and see if that resolves it... a ground cable network to ensure block, trans, chassis and battery are connected together well.

If it doesn't resolve it I will replace the main heavy gauge cable from the alternator to the battery and any other heavy gauge cable that hasn't been replaced or made up better, especially if my test shows a voltage drop.

I'm not gonna tell people to speed, but I don't do the speed limit and I never will. I drive at the comfortable limits of my and the vehicle's ability usually. The speed limits are set too low in my belief, and 80 - 90% of traffic on most interstates do not follow the speed limit. I can drive safely at 75 and even 80. I believe speed limits are set by the person's limitations and/or awareness and reflexes and because of that the law lowers it for those who aren't as quick as others.

On several occasions traveling always above 60 mph on the original engine, I used to average 400 miles a tank easily whether I was going 60, 70 or 80 mph on the interstate. I know ya'll have said a lot of times that mph goes down after 60, but on my year Windstar I just haven't observed this. MPG was always very stable/reliable before all this bs started after the 2 new engines.

Oddly enough, after I posted that previous post 3 posts back, I looked at my fuel gauge a week or so ago and I was at 300 miles right at 1/4 a tank hash mark.... which is in line for normal gas mileage on my van; 400 a tank..... after I had notably seen it lower at the other 1/4 tank hash marks..... weird.

I imagine when I pull my #5 plug that I will see it has been running rich. We'll see.

Very very frustrated. I did not need this right now. Thought I had finally fixed this damn problem, but components don't keep going bad for no reason.... something is still amiss electrically.

Also, forgot to mention too.... that when it started running rough ... the a/c had cooled normally.... then when it start running rough when I went to go down the road with it the a/c felt like warm air was coming out so I turned it off. If there's a bad ground maybe the a/c compressor is getting confused as to when it should be on or off.

If you find that the #5 plug is extra dry & clean as compared to the others, it might be a dirty fuel injector......even though your have not been in for very long.
Also note, as I was told by my mechanic, that misfire codes can be misleading.....particularly with something like a dirty fuel injector as the PCM is wildly trying to ballance things out, so misfire codes can show up on cylinders where nothing is wrong.

Anybody got any thoughts beyond all that i said?

and this too.... lol

I was thinking today..... what if i have returned the van back to its normal state (previously by replacing the VSS) of operation and didn't realize it??? ... and this cylinder 5 misfire is the result of the previous bad VSS shooting too much gas out?

In addition to that..... the new Magnaflow Ypipe I put on a long time ago has been sticking in my head for a long time now. I do not believe the tapered ends of the exhaust manifolds that go down into the ypipe are "flush". One reason I could say this is true is, a long time ago now, I had gas shooting out of the front bank where exhaust manifold meets the ypipe. The Magnaflow Ypipe setup to me has always seemed just a "tad" too wide or too long-a-tapered female end such that I can tighten the flange bolts all the way and still not feel like there is a true 100% exhaust seal.

Looking at my fuel trims from 5 posts ago, there are 4 Rich'es to every 1 Lean reported.... so is that because I was going 75mph (but I was at CRUISE control set speed) or is that because I have extra air being vacuumed into the Ypipe (exhaust leak) where the Ypipe/Ex.Manifolds meet. I realize at this point I am beyond the point of "suction" and I'm in the outgoing exhaust air flow, but it would seem logical to me that if there was an exhaust leak ahead of the O2 sensors that a partial vacuum and entrance of Air/Oxygen would be created thus throwing the O2 sensors OFF.

Even if I'm right about "having returned the van to normal operation" and there being an exhaust leak present ahead of the O2's, would that yet explain why I seem to still be having visible electrical issues (like lights flickering slightly)?

It would also make sense to me, though I haven't measured it in a very long time, that if the engine has always been compensating for a lean condition by going rich that it explains why my plugs go out so fast and why I could never get a fuel pressure reading within spec ranges.... because if the engine is always pushing "RICH" then pressure will never have time to build to operating spec range.

What ya'll think?

If you find that the #5 plug is extra dry & clean as compared to the others, it might be a dirty fuel injector......even though your have not been in for very long.
Also note, as I was told by my mechanic, that misfire codes can be misleading.....particularly with something like a dirty fuel injector as the PCM is wildly trying to ballance things out, so misfire codes can show up on cylinders where nothing is wrong.

Could be, but my tank has been cleaned out and fuel filter replaced several times.... though I did drive a couple hundred miles on a new fuel filter before the fuel tank was thoroughly cleaned out and I've always wondered if that new fuel filter got immediately clogged cause the shop said the tank was full of redish looking gunky fluid .... rust I guess.

Have been avoiding even looking at the van due to shear frustration.

I did however buy some 650 degree sensor safe RTV and some muffler repair puddy the other day. I'm not sure yet which one I will use, but I'd rather the RTV to keep "some" sort of flexibility under all that heat. Only thing is, I don't know if 650 degrees is as high as the temps get where the exhaust manifold's outlet's meet the Ypipe inlets.

So, I'm gonna try to resolve the misfire issue first, use infrared temperature laser gun to see the temps at the spot I want to apply the RTV or puddy, let it cool off, apply the RTV or puddy and pray I've solved a pre-02 exhaust leak on both sides.

After I do all that I'm gonna start the electrical testing, especially if I notice the lights still flickering.

Selectron or anyone else - Should I resolve the misfire before doing the recommended voltage testing? Will a misfire skew the voltage tests?

What could it mean (from cold start) if the engine ran smoothly for about 20 - 30 seconds and then started misfiring thereafter?

I took out the spark plug in #5 yesterday. Looked fine to me. Am going to buy 1 spark plug and swap it out and see if that resolves the issue.

#5 Spark wire ohms out fine, but could it still be bad?

Ohmed coil pack too, 5 & 1 coils ohming fine as well as the secondary (pin connector).

Got dark and I had other things to do so I stopped there. Hoping this doesn't mean the computer got fried. Would seem weird if it did seeing as I have a P0305 cylinder 5 misfire code.

What else could this be? New injector went bad?

EDIT: Didn't pour in the injector cleaner stuff yet, but I should do that and see what happens.

Well, I may be grasping at straws here, but I think I have figured a couple of things out. I haven't slept yet today/tonight... so I didn't do as much testing as I wanted to get into.

Cylinder 5 injector connector - I should've taken Wiswind's advice long ago (replace injector harness). I thought I could rig it, but you just can't cause the injector connectors are like "compression fits". The clip is broken on that injector and looked to me like it'd eased off a lil bit, so I pushed it down with a screwdriver... and it of course pushes back up a lil bit... but it looked to me like I'd gotten it to go down more "some" than where it was. I started the van and let it run for a bit and .. too good to be true?... wa la... seemed to be running right...

spark plug #5 looked nearly clean btw - looked hardly used - with one small burn mark on the white area... but nothing major

.... turned it off .... poured some chemtool in the gas... only half a can cause my gas tank is down to around 1/4 left.... turned it back on... plugged up the computer... cleared the misfire code and let it run 15 - 20 minutes and revved it here and there... seemed to hold proper idle and ran normal... I shifted gears here and there and turned steering wheel... kept running normal. I didn't take it for a drive, cause I'm too tired.

Going to order the injector wiring harness. Might order 2 to be safe since by the next time I'd need to replace it, I will be a few years down the road.

OR.... did the van run right because it dried out from recent rains...

WATER

3 times in the history of this I've had a misfire right after starting the van up after its sat for a few days.... usually through humidity or rains.

Apparently the only thing preventing water from dripping into the engine bay (besides the big long weather strips under the cowl -one i redid that touches the window - and atop the front of cowl) along the front edge of the cowl where there are those plastic screw clips.... is well the plastic screw clips.

I have one missing dead center and it drips all over the throttle body, down onto the heads, block, and ends up at the starter... believe it or not. I have to silicone around those plastic clips and make sure the upper front cowl "long" weather strip isn't leaking as well.

Then there is another BIG water source.... by the pivoting point of the driver side wiper arm.... I don't know if something is supposed to go there or not (cause it looks mighty "bare"), but that area just is a big huge hole that lets water just pour on in all over the driver side strut tower and some falls into the engine back on components etc..

Still, I could not see water leakage on any ignition components .... except the starter... or on any ground points... although I wonder if puddles of water atop the engine block and atop the tranny housing cause weird grounding results.

As memory serves, even before the new engine, I always had problems with the van even starting or lighting up the interior lights at all when it rained. At the time I had narrowed it down to the ground cable from the alternator to the frame. I think I really do need to do a ground wire kit upgrade for this thing. I don't want to, but it would get rid of a lot of "thoughts".

Voltage testing - I could not accomplish the recommended voltage testing Selectron instructed me to do in post 432 and prior. When I would put the meter in DC mode I put one of the probes to the neg terminal while van was running and the other probe to a ground strap end that was bolted to the chassis. I got negative numbers. Now that I think about it, maybe I should have reversed the probes and as well made sure I was touching chassis and not a ground strap that is touching the chassis... in case the ground strap isn't making good contact.

I did however check from NEG batt terminal to POS alternator output terminal while running (NO LOADS ON) and got a DC voltage varying from 13.3 to 14.5. This variation to 13.3 only happened every now and then, while most of the time it varied from 14.2 to 14.5... but when it'd dip to 13.3 it was only every few 15 to 30 second intervals and it would then range from 13.3 to numbers up to 14.5.. then it would go back to being between 14.2 and 14.5 again for a while before restarting the cycle of ranging from 13.3 again. Again folks, this is a new alternator and I ensured it was 100% operational before I put it in.

If the injector connectors are not making good enough contact with the injector pins because of broken connector clips, maybe this sporadic voltage variation is being caused by the shaking of those connectors as the engine shakes.

Later today I will do these VOLTAGE tests and I'm not sure which probe has to go where so I'll try both ways:

1. Voltage of Battery negative terminal to chassis with a/c and headlights on. Will try probes in both positions.

2. Voltage of battery negative terminal to engine block with a/c and headlights on. - I may try to test the following locations on the block: A. Rear head, B. Front head, C. Short Block itself - all from battery negative terminal. Will try probes in both positions.

3. Voltage - Alternator positive terminal (red probe) to battery positive terminal (black probe).

4. Start engine without alternator in loop by removing fuse "T" before starting engine. If it runs, turn it off and replace fuse "T". - I don't like this idea much cause I'm afraid it'll break my electrical components to not have an electrical generator serving them power, although it would probably be ok to do this test I think.

Well, I'm dumping 60% extra gas down the exhaust pipe. Something's very wrong and I fear another PCM is lost. Every system fix seems to make this problem worse. Maybe because I'm putting better/newer electronics in the van that whatever electrical culprit is still there is rearing its ugly head more.

Very odd to me that I could reset the scan (datalogger) computer by turning the head lights on and off. When I do this the scan software says the checksum error and data corrupted. I can get the same thing to happen when I engage the cruise control.

I also noticed that the voltage the PCM is seeing (via my scan software OBD connection) is 1 to 2 volts less than what I get with the multimeter or when I have the alternator tested at a local parts store. Showing like 12.2 - 12.5 volts via scan tool/computer and 13.4 - 13.7 via multimeter or alternator scan tool.

I guess I have yet to find the grounding problem. Whatever it is, it is making the injectors think they need to shoot full throttle almost constantly. Yesterday when I ran the scan/computer the catalyst monitoring test failed to complete. I assume that's cause it was so thick with fuel and I'm hoping I haven't ruined another cat converter.

If the OBDII system has been reset......the catalyst monitor is the LAST test that completes before the system indicates "ready".
It takes some time for this test to complete.......mine would take up to 1 month to complete!
It might have had something to do with having a aftermarket catalytic converter unit (the extra long time to complete).

Good point about resetting the computer. I hadn't thought of that and I have not driven it much at all, so I guess it will take a while for that test to complete.

Using out of the ordinary detective skills, I may have found another part of this problem.

Cruise control activation causes scan computer to error out, headlamps on/off activation causes scan computer to error out, late or erratic a/c clutch engagement, engine near stalling after rad fans kick OFF, anti-lock brake control module went bad a long time ago, hood light sometimes would not come on when hood was up, during rain a couple times in the past the windshield wipers would no longer function..... all of these things are grounded to G101, the ground underneath the battery which I have inspected before a few times, but never cut up the sheathing in the harness/splice junction point to get a good look.

Regarding the headlamps screwing up the scan computer, specifically the left head & parking/turn signal lamps go to G101 and the respective right side lights go to G102 on the other side of the engine bay. I bet if I unplugged the right side head lamp and turn signal and then turned on the head lights that I'd see the scan computer reset still and if I did the opposite and left the right side lights plugged in and unplugged the left side lights that when I turn the headlamp switch the scan computer wouldn't reset.

I hope it could be this easy, but if it isn't then I still think its related to this ground path and how it routes into the PCM since activating these components cause the scan computer to reset itself in error.

I think you could be very well on the right (and hopefully simple) path with your ground under the battery theory. It sounds like there is an unwanted resistance somewhere in your ground path. As you may know, by Ohm's Law, you will get a voltage drop across a resistance equal to the resistance multiplied by the current, so, if you turn on the headlights, etc. and increase the current running through the ground, and there is an unwanted resistance in your ground, (or transient increase in resistance, which sometimes shows up under odd conditions, or not until a certain current/heat level is reached), then you would increase the voltage drop across it, basically making the ground the PCM sees potentially not equal to the true battery/alternator ground, which could cause the PCM to "brown out," possibly corrupting memory, etc.

I would think the most likely cause would be between the G101 and the battery or alternator ground cable.

I have run across this phenomenon in printed circuit boards, in which it's called "ground bounce." (although in that case caused by an inductive reactance in the ground path)

Glad to see a new electro-person has chimed in. :) Thanks Dr Zoidberg!

I have yet to fool with this issue as I have other things going on at the moment, but I will soon have to deal with it. I really need the van right now too because I have things to haul from Home Depot, but now I'm looking at borrowing a friend's truck or renting a home depot vehicle.

I am not completely sure, but I think the smallest ground wire coming off the battery (1 of 3 wires/cables there) may also be in question as it connects at connector C135M to C135F which feeds directly to the datalink connector, the PCM and all things fuel injection related.

I have wanted to cut the wires at the C135 connector and wire screw them together thinking the connector may be causing a loose connection cause its in a spot that gets a lot of bumping into, but in the past I have tested that out to be zero ohms resistance so I left it alone.

So, if the ground under the battery doesn't solve things, then I will checkout the C135 connector ground.

After that if neither work I will probably dismantle a lot of stuff and make a ground wire "network" from new ground cables at the parts store and ensure I can "visually see" a ground path going to the battery neg post and chassis spanning across all the parts you'd want it to be on: engine block, heads, tranny, chassis, neg batt post etc..

I will probably replace the ground cable at the alternator too when I go to replace the fuel injector wiring harness underneath the intake plenum since a couple of the harness clips there are broken. This ground cable at the alt is an old one from my other car, but I thought it was in better shape than the simple exposed metal "ground strap" that Ford had put there to begin with. It ohm's out well, but if I'm going to take all that apart it makes sense to me to rule out another spot with something new and relatively cheap to buy.

I still have yet to understand how those voltage tests Selectron wanted me to do would work. I must be doing something wrong there. If I try to obtain voltage readings from a point on the chassis to the negative battery post, I get nothing. Only time I can get a voltage reading is when I'm going from + to - or vice versa. Maybe its my meter? Maybe I need a different type of meter? I'm using a digital meter at the moment. Maybe I should be using an analog one?

You may want to use the ground cable that came with your van, if it's substantially different. Those flat, woven cables can handle a lot more transient current than a copper wire sometimes.

Sometimes your ohmmeter can lie to you on low resistances. You really need an ohmmeter designed to measure milliohms accurately for that kinda thing. If you're drawing 50A (I think the winnie alternators are around 130A rated), even a 0.1Ohm resistance can cause a voltage drop of 5V. Your best bet to find the problem is turn on the car (to not run down the battery) and something that will draw some serious amps (brights, fog lights, AC blower?), and then measure voltage between various ground points. If you can find any kind of significant voltage difference between ground points, you will probably have narrowed it down significantly. Selectron probably wanted you to measure voltage between the battery post and chassis, because if there was a difference, then you would know that there was some unwanted resistance in the ground path from chassis-battery, so it's good that you're reading zero volts. Make sure you have some current flowing when you make your measurements.

You may want to use the ground cable that came with your van, if it's substantially different. Those flat, woven cables can handle a lot more transient current than a copper wire sometimes.

Well, the ground cable I put in is like a regular stranded copper ground cable you'd find in other cars. Why would that be a problem? I replaced the flat strap kind that was there because I was having problems with complete lack of power to the van at all in wet conditions and when I'd dry, blow on or wiggle the old flat ground strap it would remedy it (or so I thought back then). Ever since I replaced it I haven't had that problem, though I still seem to have more problems in humidity or rain with misfiring randomly.

I do believe my multimeter does milliOhms. Its a digital meter from radio shack.

I was getting zero ohms doing those "ground to ground" voltage measurements, but I never measured from the metal of the chassis where the ground point is under the battery. I think thats something to check out. I'll try that too, all the other stuff I said and you said and Selectron said whenever I get to work on this next (hopefully soon).

Selectron or whoever - Should the battery + voltage observed at the data link connector via a scan computer or device match that of the voltage observed while voltage metering the voltage at the battery or alternator?

I ask because I just realized that with the scan tool hooked up to my computer, the voltage I observed on the computer was in the lower 12's (with no load on) and the voltage I observed at the battery/alternator was 13 to 14...mostly in the low to mid 14's, but with a few blips to 13 every great once and a while.

G101 - I don't think I mentioned this when I was talking about Ground 101 a few posts back, but if I am right about this being the culprit circuit it is listed as the "CASE GROUND" for the PCM. It would seem to me this would be a very important ground for the PCM and that if it wasn't right it'd screw up everything. All of those components I mentioned regarding G101 are on that same ground circuit.

According to the OBDII spec, pin 16 on the OBD connector is supposed to be battery voltage. I would measure that with respect to pin 4 (4=chassis ground, 5=signal ground, not necessarily the same) on the OBD connector with the same meter (i.e. not the scan tool). The scan tool may not be accurate when measuring battery voltage.

Have not done any further said testing yet.

Just went outside to start the van and let it run for 5-10 minutes to keep the battery good.

What are the chances I spat out 1/8 a tank of gas in only 1 mile of 25 mph travel from the gas station to the house?

I noticed that the fuel gauge is down 1/8 of a tank from full. The last thing I did with the van, before letting it just sit in the driveway, was fill the tank beyond full, reset the odometer and drove it home. The fuel pump and fuel sender are brand new OEM.

Thinking of tackling this insane problem, that started this thread to begin with, from an easier perspective I went looking at the troubleshooting steps to follow for the fuel gauge showing the wrong level.

As it turns out the last Pinpoint Test listed says to check circuit 57 (BK/W). Circuit 57 is what I've been referring to in the last few posts as G101 ground under the battery, although I would think that all chassis grounds tie into each other..... but I do have several components that have gone out that documentation claims are grounded to G101 - Circuit 57.

Just saying that seeing this Pinpoint test mention to check that circuit supports my narrowing down of G101/Circuit 57 being the final culprit.

I ignored the rest of the Pinpoint tests listed for the fuel gauge, cause I know so much of my van is new. I guess the wrong fuel reading could be an additional localized issue with the fuel gauge/instrument panel connections, but at this point with all those other components having failed out of no where I think I'll see what the status of Circuit 57 is before doing anything else. I doubt the fuel gauge or sender is broken. I think whatever "ground problem" has been in the system all along has finally gotten to its worst.

I am going on a trip in my 3000GT tomorrow and will be gone for a few days. I won't be troubleshooting the van till I get back in a week or so. To all my followers out there..... lol.... I am still persisting to a fix. After having done so, I'll be damn near an automotive expert !!!! lol

What about a bad/dirty chassis?

When I had them do the engine, now back in late 2007 - early 2008, I had them replace this too:
Lower/Upper (8 qty) crossmember (subframe to body) bushings (known trouble spot in 95-96 years)

Could those bushing replacements have broken continuity throughout the chassis causing a bad ground situation?

How otherwise would a bad/dirty chassis happen?

Status: I have been working on a big at-home project and have not had the time to do the tests I have been saying I wanted to do. So far the van has been sitting over at the engine installer's shop for 2 weeks while I've been busy with other things. I talked to a tech just a couple days ago over there and he says he's good with electrical, so we'll see just how good he is.

The thing that sucks about this is I was going to use the van to "move" because I'm about to move 330 miles away. I didn't expect the van to be fixed before I had to move, so I'm leaving it here and will return for it and my cargo trailer, that I planned on taking up with the van, sometime later.

So far though, it's saved me a lot of time to just let the shop work on it. I was gonna take it back from them if they didn't complete anything after a certain point, but now I think I'm gonna just have to leave it with them.... and hope they admit its their fault.

I don't think that the subframe to body bushings would cause a isolation problem.
Reason, that is why they have multiple ground wires that connect to various parts of the body, motor block, and such.
I remember that you did a through check of the various ground wires for continuity a while back.

Sadly, just sitting in a humid climate is really hard on a vehicle, at least where there are big temperature swings.
I remember this spring, when it warmed up and was humid.....my motor was soaking wet with condensation.
I started seeing rust develop in just a couple weeks of it sitting without being used at all.

It would be really nice to get that thing going again, after all the time, and money, and stress that you have invested in it.

Hello all. :) Where's he been? Is the van running? What's he doing?

First to respond to Wiswind. From my past experience with this van, even before the original engine, removing any 1 single ground made a difference for the worse. I remember one time the ground from the alternator to the body was "questionable" as I thought moisture from humidity or rain was getting between it and the body and all electric was not available, dome lights, any lights, ignition, nothing... I played with that ground for a little while, trying to dry it off, and finally I wasn't stuck at Wal-Mart anymore.

TODAY - On 9/20/2010 I dropped the van off again, and on 11/12/2010, I picked up the van from the -engine installer- shop yet again, for the last time. Its the last time because I've had enough and the last time because I've moved 330 miles away. I thought about suing them, but I know it would be a sad case to follow through with. I know they tried to fix it, but I very much question just how hard they tried. For me to spot obvious electrical problems (IE: Such as the gas gauge not reporting right after a full fillup and then a few engine on/off's later it reports correctly) and them to say, "Seems to run fine for an old van. Nothing wrong that I can see."

Yet again, they had the van for several weeks and this bs what I'm told. I have enough documentation to sue them, but being 330 miles away and just due to overall exhaustion of dealing with the installer shop I just don't want to fool with them anymore. The owner even drove the van around for 2 weeks as is own primary vehicle and claims that it drove fine and only did something to him once where it seemed like it was a 'misfire'.

I have come to the self drawn conclusion that these "near-stall" attempts I'm seeing are misfire's caused by faults/shorts in the electrical system and more than likely in the ground circuit. During the time the van was at the shop this LAST TIME, the Owner said the only thing they did was move a ground. Well, that wasn't entirely accurate. I will explain later.

When I drove the van over there to drop it off, it drove fine. Owner of the shop claims it drove fine for 2 weeks of his own personal use and during testing all other weeks at the shop. When I picked up the van, it was very clear to see that the near-stall problem was still there at idle. Highway driving was the next test and it seemed to do well on the road I have to admit, but having dropped it off with a fuel gauge reporting wrong I was curious to see what type of interstate mileage I was gonna get. Well, enter a 330 mile journey towing about 1500 lbs.

Back in 2007 when my original engine blew, I was towing 3000lbs (almost) and I'd towed it 1 other time over several hundred miles. In this condition I was getting about 200 miles per tank of gas. Towing this time on the move 330 miles 11/12/2010, it seemed like I wasn't getting but about 150 miles per tank.... but I did not know if I could trust the gas gauge either. It seemed to indicate I was lower than I actually was.

Once I got to my new home, I have been driving the van around a lot more than my car to test it out as much as possible. Funny enough the mileage seems like it is back to its old self (original engine mileage) at around 400 interstate miles per tank. I know others claim better mileage than that, but on the original engine I have never seen better than about 410 miles per tank. I think that is roughly 18 - 19 mpg. I had hopes with a better exhaust, better ignition coils and all the new stuff that I'd eek out a better mpg percentage, but I haven't.... but also here's the rub. THE ELECTRICAL GREMLINS ARE STILL THERE.

When I finally got enough patience to pop the hood and look at what "ground had been moved" by the shop, I see no ground moved anywhere. What I did see was the ground wire that mounts to the rear head was tampered with and what I had done to fix it a long while back (in that shop's own parking lot mind you) had been reversed. In other words they put the ground wire mount back on the head, with the black painted mounting bracket underneath the ground wire mount... thus effectively putting me back into a "bad ground" situation there at the head again... because this black bracket that seems to hold up stuff in that area of the engine bay doesn't conduct well and just gets in the way of the ground wire mounting on with the lil loop thingy for the bolt to slide through.

So, since I have been back, odd electrical things have been happening, BUT for whatever strange reason the GAS MPG has been tolerable. Near-stall still exists though at idle. Some of the electrical things that have been randomly occurring are: DOOR CHIME comes on slow and then fast until I've passed 20 mph and then it turns off, Interior cabin lighting stays on and turns itself on and off at random intervals along with the door chime, dashboard "door open" light stays on during all that, interior cabin lighting remains ON after shutting the doors and engine is OFF (have checked the doors numerous times, they are fine), then after a while the lights go off, then again (engine still off) the lights come back on and off - strobing over long periods of time if you will, I have noticed too .... or maybe its just slow to respond... that the changing of the air vents when using the a/c switches to redirect air to defrost or floor or body level seems to change late or really slowly sometimes. Oh and there is the occasional electric door locks and electric windows will not function too and there's nothing wrong with the buttons. They just decide when to work or not.

I was playing with the ignition area (for the key) when the door chime stuff was happening and I couldn't figure out if I was doing anything or not, but I thought it seemed like when I moved the key in the ignition in certain ways that it would either change the door chime from fast to slow or vice versa and/or briefly it would stop it, though this could've also been due to driving RPMs or Speed at the time too.... in any case the ignition is definitely LOOSE, but still functional.... though I can pull the key out of the ignition when the van is in ON ENGINE RUNNING MODE and then turn the ignition OFF without the KEY in it, but I cannot start it without the key (at least today), but I think I have been able to do that in the past. Does this link to an ungrounded electrical issue too? Does the KEY itself ground something in the ignition in the steering column? or are there other things in there that ground together when its started?

When the door chime and interior lighting stuff was happening, I decided to look into the fuses so I could pull the right one and kill the interior lighting for overnight purposes so I could mess with all that crap later. I pulled the big 60amp fuse #29 in the engine bay and left it overnight or maybe 2 days. Then I went and put it back in again and I'll be damned... none of that electrical lighting and chiming mayhem happened at all since. Strangely enough to me, when I was idling and driving (daylight only since #29 disables the blinkers outside too) without #29 plugged into the fuse box in the engine bay, the van seemed to run smoother and the "near-stall" condition was barely noticeable. After putting it back in again, the "near-stall" issue returned back to its very noticeable self.... as I said I think above, what I'm calling a misfire due to electrical disturbances.

To close this long post, I still remain that I will still do the electrical testing I was advised of by Selectron and drzoidberg and Wiswind in the last few pages of this thread. I just don't know when I will get to them. My idea as of now is to isolate the obvious wiring problem, and likely replace the wire that grounds to the head because I think that wire is toast from having roasted so long on the EGR pipe. I think this erratic electrical behavior I'm seeing could be due to that wire "jiggling" with the engine here and there. I also want to create a ground wire "network" like the performance cars do and make sure the van chassis itself is carrying the ground circuit continuously all the way around the vehicle. I may even replace the entire engine wiring harness if I can find one in a junk yard somewhere, and then ohm it out when it gets to me before putting it in such to hopefully make sure I'm not installing more problems than I have.

Well, I don't know when I will do all this, cause right now aside from the near-stall at idle, the MPG is ok and the electrical gremlins have subsided. I've decided till I get to really work on this again that I will just keep pulling fuse #29 overnight or whenever if I have problems and then just put it back in when I wanna drive it. :) lol ...... what a wacky ass van.

OK.....the chime under 20mph and interior lights staying on is a very common Windstar issue.
I am not at all suprised to hear of it after the vehicle has been sitting.
The almost certain cause of it is one of the door closed sensor switches.
Which one is the $$$ question.
For the front doors, the sensor switch is inside the door at the latch......not the old pin switch at the hinge area they used to do.
I have a picture posted that shows the switch.
Any one of the switches.......front doors, sliding side door(s), or one of the 2 sensors for the rear hatch can cause this problem.
In short, the van "thinks" one of the doors is not closed......dirty switch contacts.
There is no switch to turn off the interior lights........that was something I looked for and asked the sales person about when I first looked at the van.
HOWEVER, there is a timer that shuts the interior lights OFF after about 45 minutes......although that timer starts again if you open a door.

Door locks.......check the springy sliding door contacts and the smooth contact plates on the sliding door(s).

Ignition switch.....my '96 was worn and I had to wiggle the key spot (key did not need to be in the ignition) to make the chime stop (this is different from the door open chime).
I bought a new ignition switch, but never got around to installing it.
But then.....all those cylces over the years.......
I had replaced the multifunction switch because the right turn signal was starting to buzz and the headlight switch because it was getting warm....and even intermittent.
Just normal stuff for keeping an older vehicle.

It IS good to hear that you are getting acceptable fuel economy.
I would go around 300 miles on a tank of fuel......with the 20 gallon tank.
There was a optional 25 gallon tank, which I think was standard on the LX version.
The best I would get out of mine was 22mpg on the freeway, taking it very easy.
I would not worry at all about 18mpg and above.
My 2003 Sienna gets me about 24mpg as a best on freeway, taking it easy fuel economy.
Certainly not a gain worth replacing a vehicle for that reason only.....2mpg is nice but not huge.

Of course, I would want to solve the anoying door open switch issue, but otherwise, it sounds like all is well.

Mine is a 95 GL with the 25 gallon tank. So actually, with that math I'm getting about 16 mpg. Ooopsy there. I still think I should be able to get an easy 20mpg if I can ever fix the ground problems.

I figured you or someone else would say its the door lock (or door shut) sensors cause I'd read that before I think somewhere on this forum, but my intuition tells me its still an electrical ground fault due to the other intermittent electrical issues I'm having and since they reversed what I'd done to "make the head ground" better. IE: Door locks not functioning sometimes, windows not functioning sometimes, improper fuel gauge reporting + the idle issues and irregular voltage observed at battery.

The crappy thing about this is that I simply cannot, no matter how much I'd love to, throw out the ideas you are telling me either.... because in reality the parts of the van I haven't touched are "aged" and as you say will do what old vehicles do. I still hinge on the idea of the bad ground and if I ever manage to fix it and erase the bad idle, I would bet money at the same time the other electrical issues would just vanish until some later date when the components themselves, that I haven't touched, start to really show their age.

Anyway, for now its running about the same mpg as the original engine. I still can't believe everyone else really gets over 20mpg on their Winnies. I guess even despite the 300 - 400 lbs of added weight on later year models past 1998 that 50 more HP engine must really help out with the mpg savings over the 95 year?

I'm sorry to be unable to provide any advice but if you need any electrical diagram don't hesitate to ask, that's all I can do on this type of problem.

Best regards,

Oscar.

I know the Massive Air Flow (MAF) sensor was cleaned, but did you ever replace it?

I know the Massive Air Flow (MAF) sensor was cleaned, but did you ever replace it?

The original was replaced with a used OEM one off Ebay. I cleaned it before I replaced it. The original one's element, where I see the air pass through, had actually "popped" in half at the metal wire that holds it in place. This is why I still feel like there is some electrical short etc... It has not ever had a "reman" or "new" MAF put back in. I think, from what I've seen on computer scans, that its running right. It seems to move up and down with the g/s (measurement) as it should.

What is very clear to me though is that while I have the computer scanner plugged in, if I activate various switches in the cabin (headlights, cruise control, actuating the accelerator pedal, etc.. anything a/c etc..) that the computer software resets in error. I'm no engineer, and probably should've been, but wouldn't this indicate an electrical issue? (Note: I trust my computer and interface hardware is all working fine when I'm connected to the van's OBD connector)

Hi everyone. Just wanted to say that she's still running strong, still "attempting" to stall, but still going. I just keep the a/c on most of the time when I run it, because it hiccups (shutters and attempts to stall) less when the a/c is on.

I did mean to post something interesting a while back and never got around to it. I am still going with the problem being that the reference voltage is being disturbed by two separate ground points. I believe the break in continuity is happening somewhere in the engine block itself or possibly due to some rust corrosion on the subframe on the back passenger rear side.

Funny thing is, I properly burped the coolant a few months ago. I found that I was 3/4 of a gallon LOW on coolant and that this was likely this way from a couple years ago when all this started. The result of the burping was a drop in temp from the "M" to the "A" on the temp gauge... a full letter width downward and the van seemed (for a while) to run much better without the "attempting" to stall thing happening 95% of the time. Later on this "near stall" came back again more prominent.

I was wondering, since I filled the coolant full, could this have provided an electrical ground path that was/is more solid? Could've been mere coincidence, but I found it odd this issue went away for a little bit after I filled it up as much as I could with the coolant.

Hello to all my fans! lol - Hope you are all doing well.