Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG

I have got the van in the garage tonight with the a/c. I hadn't been using it before cause my father doesn't like me working on things in there due to duration (lol). Kinda embarrassing to have to deal with stuff like this, but I haven't quite got myself straight since Katrina. Living with the folks again for this long after 10 years living on my own is a real shell shocker, but its allowed me to get to know my parents as adults too whereas before I only knew them from an 18-20 year old perspective when I didn't know myself and morals/values were a bit different than now. BUT THATS A WHOLE OTHER STORY....

In any case tonight is the night. Tonight I will know what tha hell with the van. Gonna put the other new new wires in there and compression test #5 (if not all) and report back. After this I'm gonna take it to an out of town shop that I trust and never let me down once to see where I go from there with the engine installer shop and possible Jasper for warranty. I hope I don't have to go there though. We'll see.

Well, I don't know how, but I spent 9pm - 5am in the garage last night doing everything but and everything with the van. I swear my personality is wonderful for catching things others miss, but sometimes I wish the ADD and procrastination parts would just walk away from me for good.

I checked the connectors to the alternator thoroughly. Just decided on a whim to do it again. I don't know what the 1 clip single wire is that goes to the alternator, but I took it apart and made it more snug. I didn't like how loose it seemed. I did the same with the main alternator connector to the regulator. I don't know if it will help at all.

I took extremely great care in handling, labeling, and routing the 2nd box of Autolite spark plug wires. This time ALL the clips are clipped down well and every one is nearly even 90 degrees and flush with the primary connections on the coils.

Every wire is labeled in multiple places for which cylinder. The routing this time I did different than before. I had really never worried about the plug wires touching hot things cause they are supposed to be able to take it, but I noticed how close (touching) the water hose to the water pump was to #5 wire and I rearranged how things were laid out.

I bought some wire spacers too (even says Ford on them) so I could route better. I went under the water pump hose and behind (to right of from front facing in) the intake plenum support that is just across from the alternator. I figured this would keep it away from the alternator and hopefully from sliding back/up to touching the water hose. I also put a spacer right off the coils to kinda pull #5 wire back from that hose too. Somehow I also managed to get a spacer in behind the alternator with a wrench and long flat head screwdriver (using them as artificial fingers).

I am happy with how it is all laid out now except the part where it rounds the front valve cover by the oil cap, though the cover is durable plastic and the hose lines the wires touch are for the power steering pump so I don't imagine either of these will ever get hot enough to damage the plug wires.

START UP ???? No. I am at the point now where I'm scared to. Seriously. I figured once I realized it was 5am that I'd quit there because if I started it up and waited for "full hot" and it didn't work right I might have a heart attack. I was going to do compression testing, but I realize now that the exhaust manifolds are so close to the plugs that I don't know how I'd get the wires off and plugs out without scorching myself. I think I am going to start it and if it does not cooperate I'm gonna just bring it over to my out of town trusted shop.

So.... START UP .... to come in a few moments. I went took a bath and eating breakfast (no sleep yet; 8:20 AM) and I'm getting ready to go let it run and then will determine if I need to bring it to the out of towner shop.

Nothing changed. It blows me away. I haven't a clue how to proceed. Everything that I can think of has been tried. New wires where the old ones seemed to be bad.... and it still runs like it wants to kill at idle and eats gas on the road. Doesn't make any damn sense.

I compression tested #5 and #6 and both came out to be able 158 psi. I got fed up after that, quit & then prepared it for delivery to my out of town trusted shop.

So, its at the 3rd shop in this grand debacle. These guys have never let me down, but I fear this one will break them. I'm expecting them to say they can't find anything wrong with it.

I gave them a 2 page synopsis on the history, whats been replaced, what hasn't been tried (of the oddest stuff too... even oscilloscope suggestions), etc.. and hopefully with that something will come out of all this.

At this point I have started to consider odd/strange things like EVAP clogging, fuel return line clogged, and whatever else bizarre.

I have however made a decision of the executive kind. This is the last shop visit and last attempt to fix this issue barring Jasper warranty service. After these steps I'll be throwing in the towel and looking for another vehicle to swap to or just parting out. It is a real shame that I'd have to give up a brand new engine and transmission and an array of other improvements which have made this vehicle like "NEW" again, but none of it is worth it with less than HALF the MPG I should be getting.

There is also the other option.... to drive it till it dies despite the horrible MPG. I guess I could do that and accept it for its flaws till it would croak.

What ya'll think? Don't feel like you can't share your opinion. I really want to know what ya'll would do after all this. Assuming that further investigation for repairs is no longer an option, how would you proceed at this point?

Why would the engine run right after wetting & moving the spark wires to 4,5,& 6 around? ..then shortly afterwards (assuming when the water had dried up) .... cylinder 5 misfire code.... made me think to replace spark wires... so I did..... still not running right.

What does that mean? Just that..... nothing else..... what does that mean? Anybody?

Out of town trusted shop doesn't want to fool with it. They want me to come pick it up. Is there ANYONE that does technical work anymore when it comes down to getting into the nitty gritty? I might've talked him into keeping it, but he says he has to discuss it with his "WIFE" (they both run the business). Ugggh.... this just keeps getting uglier.

"Cash for Clunkers"!

Sometimes the fight just gets to be OLD! Get yourself a nice new Mazda5 (for example) ... everything on it will work super for a few years and several thousand miles with great MPH ... after that you can have a new hobby (working on the Mazda!). You will never lose what you have already learned.

I can't afford to get on a note right now. Cash for Clunker-ville isn't an option, but believe me I have thought about it.

Check these out:

http://extreme-check-engine-light-codes.com/blog/obd2/engine-misfiring-code/

http://www.scooterfocus.com/scooter_troubleshooting_2.html

If you read those links they are very informative and while the 2nd link is about scooters the principles are the same. Word search that 2nd link for the phrase "spray water" & read that whole paragraph.

The only things I did (as I tried to do as little as possible to limit possible changes/fixes) to make the engine run right just for a few blessed minutes was spray water, move #5 wire & listen/watch.

Coincidence of moving #5 wire and then seeing a misfire code on cylinder 5 may have got the best of me because replacing the wires didn't work.

That left me with this water thing. The WATER was the only other thing I did during the test and had to have something to do with the engine running right for a few minutes (5 - 10) and then running like crap with a misfire code present.

This "random misfire" or Misfire on all cylinders only sometimes as explained in the 1st link makes sense.

All the other times I have had theories they have lead me, a lot of the time, to correcting some mistake the shop did, yet correcting that mistake still didn't fix my overall big problem with the bad MPG...... BUT all the times I had theories I did not ever witness the engine running right except THE ONE TIME recently when I sprayed the water.

In other words: I bet I have a vacuum leak somewhere strange in the throttle body, its gasket, intake manifold, intake manifold gasket or the lower intake manifold gasket.... or the manifold(s) themselves cracked. The behavior is spot on with what I've read online.... and once again THIS IS THE ONLY TIME ONE OF MY THEORIES HAS HAD AN INSTANCE WHERE THE ENGINE RAN RIGHT FOR EVEN A FEW MINUTES!!!!! The leak must be so small its gotta be ridiculous.My other trusted shop basically didn't want to start a wild goose chase going behind my and the other shop's work chasing electrical gremlins while taking my wallet for a big ride. They are considerate like that.

So my theory is that everything is off: fuel pressure, o2's, mas, etc.. due to the vacuum leak and that the reason I don't have power at high speeds is too much air and not enough fuel. I also believe that this could actually influence the electrical system because after all, all of the measurements resort to voltages and if they are out of balance I'd think you'd get a mess...... especially if you go WOT.

So I talked to the shop today and they are going to do a smoke test. I assume this means they will pump the crankcase full of smoke and watch for leaks. I had tried something similar a while back, but it was pressurizing the crankcase with compressed air (only a lil of it) while watching smoke rise around the engine to see if it would move from rushing air. I wish I would've thought about funneling that smoke machine into the intake now, but honestly I'd rather experienced shop people do it. I'm just wondering now if smoke would even be able to seep out of a miniscule crack/leak wherever it is.

If the crack is in the intake manifold would JB Weld or Steel puddy suffice?

I'm kinda pissed. No official word on the smoke test other than the service manager/phone person saying that the techs didn't tell her anything. The part I'm pissed about is they said it wouldn't start now. I haven't been having any trouble starting it since the replacement of the computer or really at all except for hot starting when the computer was bad holding the injectors open. They say they haven't taken it apart or anything and just did the smoke test. I find it odd though that now it'd be giving starting problems with nothing but the smoke test done to it.

So its still over there now and I'm waiting to hear whats what. They are now thinking electrical. I don't get that though since my spraying water test fixed it for a lil while before.

Maybe we got lucky and whatever was slightly bad.....is now a solid failure....which would be much easier to troubleshoot than something marginal or intermittent.

I hope so.

I've been calling them with no calls back. No progress. Bout to call in a couple minutes again.

Selectron - (or anyone else too) Is it possible that spraying of water around (theoretically) shorted, open or bad grounded circuits could cause the circuits/wires to ground properly momentarily to make the vehicle run right?

I ask this cause the only thing the shop has said is that its an electrical problem (a guess), but I'm still leaning towards a vacuum leak because of how the spray water got rid of the idle issue.

Call'em back - Basically (lol sarcastically/hysterically) it just sounds like they don't want to fool with it at all. I persisted about the "smoke test" and my intuition tells me they haven't even done that yet. Talked to the owner/tech/husband this time instead of the secretary/wife and he said the first smoke test didn't reveal anything, but that he wanted to try it in a different way again.... but my intuition tells me from the way he said it, that he hasn't even tested it at all in that way.

I don't really have any other options but to leave it there till they feel like they can get to it. I could bring it back home and start testing circuits or do the spray water test again and pull apart the intake once more.... but all of those ideas make me feel worn down like i'll just be doing them for nothing as usual.

See I don't know if its like this in other states, but this is typical Southern Louisiana bs... the wait at the shop etc... You either have something new and they do it quick or something old and they turn you away or make you wait eons.

Well, this is a very sad story isn't it?

I told them I had family coming into town next week (true) and that we needed to know if I could use the van or if we had to make other arrangements. That was Monday. The lady said Wednesday they should know something (thats today). I just called today and nothing. NO time spent on it at all.

Its like a nightmare that refuses to end. I got tired of it and gave it to someone fresh to it and they don't want it either. I guess they just see something 14 years old and a waste of time. I just don't get it though cause they know I put a new engine and tranny in it. Anyway, they say they'll call me today to let me know to take it back or not, but I haven't received a call from them once anyway so I don't expect one.

Its just seems like they've wanted to wait me out from the beginning. I just can't believe it sitting for 2.5 weeks and not even gazed at.

If I go get it today or tomorrow I'll fiddle with it again myself at some point, but right now I don't have a lot of time to keep absorbing myself with this project. What I really need is a knowledgeable tech at my house for a few days to help me isolate this issue. I'm starting to think about putting an ad out in craigslist to see if I can get some hands on help from someone.

Called shop and shot straight with them "If you are waiting me out I can just come get it since thats just a waste of time." - They swear they aren't wasting my time and the owner says he's busy from 7am - 8pm everyday with business and that they have just been balls to the wall busy. I guess I screwed up when I dropped it off by saying I could wait a month. I thought that'd make'em happy to do it somewhat soon within 2 weeks, but apparently you can't offer up something like that without it being taken literally. They claim they'll get to it next week and sounded sincere.

Talked to the owner this time. He seemed to be sincere (as I'd thought about this place before) and had it in mind what he wanted to do. He says he did a smoke test when the engine was hot before and wants to do a test with it cold. Cold makes more sense to me as the metals won't be expanded yet. He also said electrical testing will take a while so he wanted to be able to look at it when he had time to give to it. I told my Father today that I'm gonna give it a deadline of next Wednesday the 2nd. I think thats more than ample even for a "balls to the wall" busy shop.

Just read the last four pages again to refresh my memory, and if there's anything in there by way of a clue then I'd say it's likely to be the spraying of the water improving the idle. I doubt if that was an electrical effect that you saw though; more likely the water has temporarily sealed a vacuum leak.

Plain old water is actually a pretty poor conductor, unless you add something to it - salts, I believe - to improve the conductivity. As such, even if you sprayed water onto a bad ground, it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference on a 12V circuit. Spraying plain water in the vicinity of the spark plug leads is a different matter though because they carry such a high voltage, and if they have poor or damaged insulation then dampness will easily encourage them to 'leak', electrically speaking, but dampness would only make matters worse - it wouldn't account for the improvement that you saw on that one occasion.

So that's why I'm thinking maybe you've inadvertently discovered a vacuum leak. It's not something which I know much about, but if you want to spray test again then I believe you should add a few drops of liquid soap - washing up liquid - which acts as a surfactant and reduces the surface tension of the water, so if droplets land on a leak then instead of sitting as individual droplets, they will instead spread out, merge, and conform to the shape of the leak and temporarily seal it. That's about the limit of my knowledge though. You might want to take a look at the Ford CD and see if they recommend a procedure for tracing a leak by using a vacuum gauge. If the leak (if there is even a leak) is on the rear bank then I assume you'd be much hampered by limited access.

I think that would be worth putting some time into, but if that proved fruitless then I really wouldn't know what to suggest you might try next.

Shop has run a hot and cold smoke vac test and found nothing.

Been there now 5 weeks. :|:cwm27:

He thinks its electrical and is waiting for the right block of time to be available to test it.

Selectron/Anyone - Do you think I ruined the O2 sensors by soaking them overnight in electrical parts cleaner? Did this a while back. Also, what do you think are the chances of the O2 sensors still being good past an engine overheating and known glowing red cat on the rear bank?

I don't understand why the smoke test didn't show anything though. I'm wondering if its possible water could get through and not smoke or if the whole crankcase wasn't pressurized with the smoke maybe the smoke didn't reach the right area or enough pressure to force out.

Is it possible the heads aren't grounded to the block and maybe the water momentarily grounded the head(s) to the block causing it to run better and then run misfiring?

I can't really help with the O2 sensors, Searcherrr - I just don't know that much about about them. How they would react to be being soaked in electrical parts cleaner, or being overheated, are issues which perhaps only the manufacturer would know about, so maybe it might be worth finding a contact e-mail address and asking them? Does your scan tool allow you to save data, and if so do you have old O2 readings which you can refer back to for comparison purposes and see how the then-and-now results compare.

Can't really comment on the smoke test because it's something I've never done.

I shouldn't worry about the heads not being grounded to the block - aside from any other ground paths which exist, the cylinder head bolts will ensure that they're sitting at the same electrical potential. Thereafter, it's the job of the grounding strap which runs from the block to the battery to complete the ground path.

At low voltages, plain old water from the kitchen tap really is a very poor electrical conductor, and if you had a bad ground connection somewhere then no matter how much water you poured over it, it would remain a bad ground. I'll wire up a little circuit later and take a couple of photos to prove the point. If it still bothers you though, there's no reason why you shouldn't add a separate ground strap of your own between head and block - just get some fairly heavy gauge wire, find a suitable bolt on head and block (without disturbing the cylinder head bolts though) and bolt it on there. Probably won't do any good, but it won't do any harm either and it would set your mind at rest on that point at least.

One test, that I have not done, but have had described to me, is a cylinder ballance test.
I would prefer to disable a cylinder by unplugging the fuel injector, as then you are not squirting fuel into the cylinder......vs unplugging a spark plug wire.

I don't know if this has been discussed in this thread before or not......sorry if this is a repeat.

Process.....first, you need a tachometer.....not the one in the dashboard (not accurate enough).....a digital tachometer would be best......

You will be making a chart of Idle speed with all cylinders....and a entry for each cylinder number and RPM speed.

Start motor......at idle.....warm motor.... disconnect the Idle Air Control (IAC) electrical connection so that it will NOT be able to adjust idle speed.

Record idle speed RPM as indicated by the tachometer.

Disconnect 1 cylinder's fuel injector electrical connection.....disabling that 1 cylinder.
Record the idle speed RPM as indicated by the tachometer.....and the cylinder number that you disabled.
Reconnect the fuel injector electrical connection.

Move to another cylinder.....disconnect the fuel injector electrical connection for that cylinder.....
Record the Idle speed RPM and cylinder number.

Repeat this process until you have a Idle speed for each cylinder being disconnected.

A properly operating motor should give you about the same idle speed for each cylinder being disconnected.....with the motor running on the other 5 cylinders.
A significan difference for 1 cylinder is not good......say very little difference as compared to the other cylinders would indicate that this particular cylinder is not contributing as much as the other cylinders.

What the specification is for varience between cylinders.....I don't know.

Don't forget to reconnect the IAC and verify that all the electrical connections to the fuel injectors are reconnected.....

I am thinking that it may be easier to get to the electrical connections for the fuel injectors on your '95 than on a '96 and newer 3.8L due to the split port intake manifold on '96 and newer 3.8L motor.

You only want to have a cylinder disabled for a short time....just long enough to take a reading.

This test will likely light the CEL and have failure codes stored.......so ignore codes that you create during this test.

Oxygen sensors.
The NEW Scangauge II lets you look at more information, including oxygen sensor data..... www.scangauge.com

My old original Scangauge does not have this function.

I have read about soaking oxygen sensors in various fluids......not big on it.
In your situation.....you don't know if your oxygen sensor is bad or not.....so how would you know if you bring it back to life or not (you know that it is NOT a solid bad, or you would have a CEL with code(s))
So.....my thinking is that you have more to loose by doing this than you have to gain.

The oxygen sensor operates by a CHEMICAL reaction of the material in the sensor with oxygen in the exhaust pipe that it is mounted into, and the air in the external environment.

Dipping the sensor into another chemical is risking that it will be one that will damage it.....we know that some chemicals will ruin a oxygen sensor.....

So.....in your case.....if unable to determine if the oxperating charactoristics of the oxygen sensors are within ideal range.......the best test would be replacement of both upstream oxygen sensors.
I am big on using Genuine Motorcraft parts for this application......as they have been manufactured to Motorcraft specifications......regardless of who made them.
In other words......if they are made by Bosch......a Motorcraft branded Bosch has been made to Motorcraft specifications......whereas the Bosch branded sensor may not have been.

HOWEVER, this is another $120 or more test.....that might or might not make any difference....so I am not really pushing this as a test.
Your 1995 windstar is OBDII compliant.....and I am sure that by now you have read the codes that show how many ways that the PCM is monitoring those sensors.

Once my very slight intake manifold gasket leak was solved.....I replaced mine........as I knew that at least 1 of them had been exposed to some coolant (green stain on body that was inside exhaust pipe)....and I was way over 150K miles on the original ones.
It made NO difference in my particular case.....motor was running fine before and after the replacement.

Any updates to this ??

Is it possible the heads aren't grounded to the block and maybe the water momentarily grounded the head(s) to the block causing it to run better and then run misfiring?

At low voltages, plain old water from the kitchen tap really is a very poor electrical conductor, and if you had a bad ground connection somewhere then no matter how much water you poured over it, it would remain a bad ground. I'll wire up a little circuit later and take a couple of photos to prove the point.

Oops, when I said, "later", I meant a few hours later; not a few weeks. Before I start splashing water around in an electrical circuit, I'll just point out that the purpose of this post is simply to demonstrate that in the event of a bad ground in a vehicle's 12V electrical system, a film of water over the ground point will have no useful effect - a bad ground will remain just that - a bad ground.

What I'm doing here is safe because of the low supply voltage, but at higher voltages, mixing water and electricity can have fatal consequences, so they should always be kept a healthy distance apart.

So here's the circuit - a 12V/12Ah lead-acid battery, to a fuse (1.6A), then through the bulb, and then back to the battery negative terminal via the green wires. Notice that the arch-shaped wire link at the bottom of the board is unplugged, so the bulb is switched off - when the link is plugged in, the bulb will light, and later I'll be diverting the current through a glass of tap water instead of via the link.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x64/Selectron/Misc/cct-01_th.jpg (http://selectron.webs.com/images-over-1024x768/cct-01.jpg)......http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x64/Selectron/Misc/cct-02_th.jpg (http://selectron.webs.com/images-over-1024x768/cct-02.jpg)

It's a 12V/10W bulb, so it should draw a current of around 0.8 amps. So let's plug the link in, put a plastic cap over the bulb to reduce glare, and take a photo. The bulb lights brightly and the meter, as expected, shows a current flow of 0.86 amps.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x64/Selectron/Misc/cct-03_th.jpg (http://selectron.webs.com/images-over-1024x768/cct-03.jpg)

Now let's unplug the arch-shaped link, plug in two wires instead at that point in the circuit, strip a half-inch of insulation from the other end of each and then tape them together so that the bare ends are not quite touching, like so:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x64/Selectron/Misc/cct-04_th.jpg (http://selectron.webs.com/images-over-1024x768/cct-04.jpg)

... and now let's drop those bare ends into a glass of tap water. The bulb is unlit and the meter now indicates a current of only 0.01 amps, or 10mA (the apparent white glow on the bulb's glass is the reflection from the room's fluorescent striplight).

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x64/Selectron/Misc/cct-05_th.jpg (http://selectron.webs.com/images-over-1024x768/cct-05.jpg)

To get a more accurate reading, I'll change scale on the meter - the range selector switch stays where it is, but I move the plug from the meter's '10A' socket, to the 'mA' socket, and obtain a more accurate reading of 2.74mA.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x64/Selectron/Misc/cct-06_th.jpg (http://selectron.webs.com/images-over-1024x768/cct-06.jpg)

Here's a close-up of the bulb and you can see there isn't even a glow from the filament. So the current which was 0.86A or 860mA when the circuit was completed via wire, with bulb glowing brightly, has fallen to a mere 2.74mA when the circuit is completed via water, with the bulb remaining unlit, thereby demonstrating that plain tap water in a 12V circuit really is a poor conductor, so if you have a bad ground and spray or pour tap water over it, it will remain a bad ground.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x64/Selectron/Misc/cct-07_th.jpg (http://selectron.webs.com/images-over-1024x768/cct-07.jpg)

And finally, just to remove any doubt that the bulb might be limiting the current, I'll take the bulb out of circuit, and drop the two wires from the battery's positive and negative terminals straight into the glass of water, via just the fuse and the ammeter, so the water is effectively placing a 'short' directly across the battery - but there are no sparks, no explosions, no drama - just a mere 2.59mA of current flow, which on the scale of things in a car's electrical system is hardly any current at all.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x64/Selectron/Misc/cct-08_th.jpg (http://selectron.webs.com/images-over-1024x768/cct-08.jpg)

So I remain convinced that spraying the water had no effect whatsoever on any of your 12V circuits, but at the high voltages (tens of kilovolts) of your ignition secondary circuits - the ignition coil secondary outputs and the spark plug wires and connectors - it could indeed have a significant effect because as you know, just damp air alone can affect them without there even being any visible water. When you got the check engine light that one time, and the misfire code, I reckon that was simply due to the presence of the water, causing the spark to arc to ground instead of following its intended route via the spark plug wire and spark plug.

The mystery which remains is why you observed the fans switching off that one time without the accompanying blip in the idle, which unfortunately I can't offer any insight into. :( I'm hoping the shop will have found something, but I suspect that if they had we'd have heard about it by now. So, any news?

First off, you guys are great. :)

I had thought that my thread would've died, so I never looked at it till recently & because its only been recently in the past week that I have a new answer or symptom to add to the mix.

The van has been sitting there since the beginning of August. They have me on their "Delayed Schedule Plan". Apparently everyone brings this place their problem children vehicles and mine was 1 of 5 they had to deal with. I wonder if all those are still sitting there too?

Anyway, first off - The owner has been doing this himself and says that he disconnected the O2 Sensor's from the mix and the van is still doing what its doing (poor fuel economy and what I'm about to write below).

The owner called me about a week ago and said that he'd done a few tests to it and explained to me that he'd never seen this in the history of working on any Ford engine. He goes on to say that he looked at the STFT's (short term fuel trims) in the computer while it was sitting there at idle and that he saw the STFT at 199%!

Apparently, to say this is not an appropriate value to be seeing is a HUGE understatement. He said that STFT's usually vary between -2 to +2% at idle. I did some research online tonight briefly and of course he is correct and while sometimes it may be more or less its usually never over 10 in either direction.

To him this means a faulty computer. That is his first guess, though I have had the computer replaced and reflashed explicitly for my current part number and engine calibration code. Still, the computer is a Carquest reman too. At the same time I had a Carquest reman in there before the engine went out and it ran fine with proper gas mileage. It wasn't until the engine was swapped that things started going haywire which of course I'm guessing is about some wiring is bad somewhere OR I guess it could be that the Carquest computer build's of my year van are defunct. I don't know.

Anyway, I missed my "window" to keep the shop owner in the "motions" to keep working on my van by not calling him back for 3 days. Now the van sits in the street next to the place. You can see that I've put this on low priority now as I'm using my other car until the shop gets this damn thing licked. I eventually called him back and dropped off 2 FORD OEM computers that match up (positive of that) for him to test with. That was over a week ago and nothing has been attempted over there since.

And so I continue to wait not being able to use the van for a Thanksgiving trip to the mountains or who knows... maybe I won't even get it back for Christmas. In any case driving my 3000GT is more fun anyway, but certainly not as roomy or comfy. :)

Selectron !!!!!! I can't believe you went to all that trouble !! :) YOU MUST REALLY DIG ELECTRICITY!! I really enjoyed your write up and photos. That is very useful. I'm in agreement that the spark current was affected during my water test and not the 12v vehicle power. Perhaps I eliminated a misfire issue with the plug wires which had caused damage elsewhere (the NEW PCM?), hence why there is still a problem?

Wiswind - Thanks for the test advice. Good to know for future problems, but I have decided to leave the van at the shop even if it takes several more months. I cannot afford to spend more of my own personal time on it unless its something black/white and easy to fix once DETERMINED that it needs to be fixed by the shop. - HEY, does your ScanGauge show STFT's Wiswind? If so, what is yours normally around?

For now, I'm interested in ya'lls thoughts from what the shop has told me.

What would or could cause STFT's to boost so high? In other words, what is telling the computer to inject so much fuel just sitting there at idle even !?!?!?!

I wonder if the injectors are again at 12v full throttle spray conditions and if this would cause STFT in the computer reading to show 199%? To me this number is so far off though it would seem like the computer is faulty even though its brand new and reflashed.

What ya'll think?

First, I have the old, original version of the Scanguage.
It does not show fuel trim %.
If you go to the Scangauge website, the unit that they now sell costs more...but has a LOT more features.
My unit is great for reading codes and giving me SOME information....but really like what I read about the new version.....just not enough to spend more money.

As to the injector spray......if they are spraying THAT much more fuel than what the PCM is expecting......you for SURE should have a CEL lit with codes indicating a too rich condition.
It is VERY critical that the spray volume of the injectors be matched to the PCM programing......which is what you ran into trying to buy new injectors......as they tried to sell you ones that sprayed too much....and you had to return them for the correct ones for the '95.

I would advise you to stay the course with what the shop is telling you.....199% instead of +/-2% is beyond marginal.....Something is certainly amiss for this with no CEL / rich codes.
I am guessing that they verified that the system is in CLOSED loop.
My scangauge shows my vehicle to go from OPEN loop to CLOSED loop within about 30 seconds of starting the engine......even in COLD weather.
CLOSED loop is when the PCM is using the feedback from the oxygen sensors to determine fuel trim.
It goes into closed loop so fast because each oxygen sensor has a internal heater that heats it up to the correct temperature very quickly.......so everything else may be bone chilling cold....but you will be in closed loop really fast.


Those breadboards in Selectron's pictures just above your last message bring back memories of LONG hours doing my engineering labs for school.
I think I will have that strange feeling every time I see one of those the rest of my life.
The labs were fun....but the memory of doing all those lab reports still wakes me up at night.

I hesitate to post here. The fuel trim % represent how long injector needs to be kept open (when the fuel system is in closed loop), compared with how long the PCM expects that it needs to be kept open (based on other inputs such as the air flow reading, RPM, LOAD...) If you have a scan tool connected while operating the vehicle, you will notice a constant FT reading when the fuel system goes open loop, because the PCM isn't using the O2 sensor reading to adjust the mixture during open loop operation. During open loop operation, the PCM uses the long term fuel trim(s) stored in memory to set the injector timing.

A positive reading indicates that the injectors are being kept open LONGER than expected in order keep the O2 sensor in the right range. A reading of +200% describes that the PCM needs to keep the injectors open 2x longer than expected. The total time open is 3x the expected time. A number like 199% could easily be the full scale reading, so the true reading might actually be higher.

There is a document (PDF) on one of the Ford/Motorcraft websites that will explain OBDII operation on the Windstar. I have previously posted a link to this document.

I was also thinking that 199 sounds like it might be the full-scale reading. I don't know what to make of it though. If the fuel trim is sitting at that level for no good reason then that would explain your high fuel consumption and might point towards a faulty PCM, but I wonder why there's no code for a rich mixture.

If on the other hand the trim is set that high in response to a legitimate input to the PCM, or an unseen fault condition, i.e. something for which the PCM cannot set a code, then that would suggest that the underlying problem is actually a lean mixture, for which the PCM is trying to compensate. I think Wiswind has mentioned more than once that the fuel pressure isn't monitored on the Windstar, so I wonder if the PCM is trying to compensate for low fuel pressure. I'd probably take a closer look at the fuel pressure, and verify that the replacement injectors are, for sure, the correct ones for that engine.

Your mechanic finally has something tangible to work with though, so hopefully it will soon lead him to the source of the problem; I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Thanks for hangin in there guys.

A lil story. Recently, a friend of mine with a 2002 Ford F150 got a CEL and blinking OD light. It came up with 12 faults at first then 17 later. The faults were all over the board from O2, cam sensor, shift solenoid etc.. manufacturer specifics, etc... One of the manufacturer specific ones was that there was a definitive short somewhere. Somehow the tech my friend brought it to isolated it to an O2 sensor. 1 FRIGGIN SENSOR CAUSED 17 FAULTS AND MADE ME THINK HIS COMPUTER WAS FRIED. Sure enough the computer was tolerating the shorts. To me he's lucky nothing else got fried. Truck ran like crap though. It was way more "runability" noticeable than my van's situation.

Point is: Maybe its 1, just 1 of the old sensors that I never replaced (not many of those left at all) causing my electrical problem. Numerous other components have popped and gone bad before (AFS (MAS or MAF), Alternator, bad cell in a new battery, DPFE, previous computer blown) etc.. The previous computer was this 3rd party setup from Carquest, same kind that is in there now with the latest flash. Originally though, the FORD OEM computer had blown out from prior to the new engine.

Whatever is causing the electrical gremlins has been in the engine bay of my van since prior to the new engine and I bet the component isn't TOTALLY bad, but maybe PARTIALLY or MOSTLY gone bad hence why we get no CEL and can't put our finger on anything in particular.

INJECTORS - I've more than double confirmed I have the right ones unless the piece of the part (the injector itself) was put on the wrong part number. I assume these guys who rebuild injectors take apart every single piece of the injector, including the part with the part number on it. Perhaps the part with the part number on it was put back on the wrong flow rate injector and I ended up buying that? Still, I don't think so. I think that would be very odd to find have happened because I had to send the injectors I'd bought originally back to get the right ones, as Wiswind remembered.

FUEL PRESSURE - Has never been to spec since the new engine has been installed. This makes me wonder about the fuel return line being clogged, because its the only thing left that could make pressure low..... unless the fact that the injectors are SURGING no..... JETTING FUEL out constantly is the reason I can't ever build pressure while its running. I bet that is more like it.

IDEA: LETS LOOK AT THIS ANOTHER WAY SO THAT IT MAY LEAD ME TO THE RIGHT WIRING.

WHAT ARE ALL OF THE COMPONENTS THAT TELL THE INJECTORS HOW MUCH TO SQUIRT?
I can then pluck what I've replaced from this list of answers and maybe it'll lead us to the wiring or component I haven't replaced that could still be causing me this problem.

Selectron or whoever:

What would cause the injectors to see a constant 12 volts ? Where could this happen? PCM only? Crossed wires somewhere else? What sensor could break or get confused and give a reading to the PCM to push such constant voltage to the injectors? What type of electrical anomaly would have to occur to make this happen?

The injectors have a constant +12V supplied to them when the ignition is ON, so you will see this 12 volts anytime you check from an injector to ground.
The PCM supplies a MOMENTARY ground to each injector when it wants to spray fuel into the given cylinder.
You will not see this ground with a meter.....you would need to use a ocilloscope to see the waveform applied to the injectors.
The PCM expects a certain amount of fuel for a given time that it tells the injector to be ON. There is a certain amount of tolerance, but not much.
There are variables, such as fuel pressure, which the fuel pressure regulator helps out with.

Fuel pressure regulator, With NO vaccum to the fuel pressure regulator, fuel pressure will be at the maximum value.
As vaccum increases, fuel pressure decreases.
This makes sense when you consider that when the vaccum is low.....that is when the motor is working harder.....you are calling for more power.....full accelleration.
When the motor is at idle...minimum work.....the vaccum is at the maximum value.

In the story about the defective oxygen sensor causing many faults,,, if the oxygen sensor is defective, but not outside the range of values that would be valid input, the PCM will use this as valid data, and try to compensate to get a ideal value.
This would cause other sensors to see things that are not correct.
The PCM is trying to adjust for 1 bad input, causing a bunch of other values to be bad.
If the oxygen sensor (or other sensor for that matter) is solid defective, Such as a open or a short...then the PCM will flag this as a problem with the sensor and not use the input to make adjustments to air/fuel ratio, ignition timing, etc.

I thought that the shop had verified the fuel pump as good or replaced it and verified it as good?
Marginal low fuel pressure should not cause these problems.......as in just slightly outside of specification.

One problem that can happen that I would check out......make SURE that the leads for the oxygen sensors did not somehow get switched.......as in front and rear banks being switched. It is possible to switch a couple of those leads......and you can well imagine how the PCM would have difficulty with getting a ideal performance out of things that way.
YES....it is possible to physically connect any of the oxygen sensors into any of the wire harness plugs for the oxygen sensors.

All of fuel system is brand new, including fuel pump. Only thing not checked in fuel system to date is fuel return line. All fuel pressure tests are within normal ranges except during idle or when pressing the gas.

The O2's wiring isn't switched. I'm sure of this.

Something is telling the PCM to shoot gas as if its a rocket going into orbit. My guess is the injectors are seeing a constant 12v OR 1 or more of them is seeing a constant 12v.

The problem with that is....if even 1 injector is completely spraying away, you should have a code and CEL lit.
Now, if 1 injector is spraying "somewhat" too much, maybe the PCM is leaning out the others to compensate for it.
However, I find it hard to believe that you would have the exact same problem with new fuel injectors and several new PCM units.....given that the stated problem is so rare.

This certainly is a strange problem.....I have no idea of what to suggest.

All fuel pressure tests are within normal ranges except during idle or when pressing the gas.
Hmmm. Not meaning to be flippant, but isn't that a bit like saying, "the headlamps work fine, except at nighttime when I actually need them".

If one or more of your injectors was being constantly grounded then wouldn't you expect to see raw fuel leaking from the exhaust manifold, as it did when injector #6 circuit went faulty? Your mechanic would be able to check that very quickly by probing each injector with just a so-called 'noid light, which is sure to be amongst his toolkit - if it blinks then the injector is being switched, if it remains unlit then it is not being switched, or if it lights and remains lit (unblinking) then the injector is being constantly grounded. If access to the injector connectors is reasonable then all six injectors can be tested in a couple of minutes.

1st - VOLTAGE IRREGULARITY DISCOVERED BY OWNER AT SHOP

2nd - LOL - Selectron - That is true I guess, but I meant the fuel pressure tests while relieving the FPR and pressure tests after engine turns off are normal. Still, yes, .... when I need it..... the fuel pressure isn't normal. lol

Inspector injector connector vectors aren't good. :biggrin::grinyes::grinno: Meaning - I find access to the connectors to be very difficult. They all connect underneath the intake plenum buried under that and other assorted stuff (wiring) etc... One could see getting under there with a special flexi-hose grip tool, but even then it would take some very patient efforts to get the noid light testing stuff connected right.

Back to 1st issue - I call upon that Electron Selectron brain!!!.... to discuss.... VOLTAGE SPIKES! They put in the 2 PCM's I brought them to test with and said that the PCM is not seeing proper voltage. Its erractic and spiking. This would explain several of my component (sensor & computer) failures/blowouts in the past. The question I have though is, what on Earth would cause this to happen?

Could simply a bad wire (or going bad wire; most of the strands no good, but 1 or 2 still sending current) cause voltage spikes?

Are we back to the back emf thing? Though this (near stall) happens without the A/C on at Idle and I'm still grouping the "near stall" event with the main problem. If its the radiator fan circuit (since "near stall" always begins with the fans cutting OFF) then how could this be sending a voltage spike to the PCM if the fans are new?

If not the radiator fans & associated circuitry, what else has the potential and enough WHOOP to send voltage spikes back to the PCM?

If you do have electrical noise, or spikes, then a regular multimeter isn't going to be much help in locating the source. It's designed to measure sinusoidal, repetitive, AC voltages, and doesn't accurately indicate other waveforms - such as noise and spikes. Ideally then, you would want to hook up either a bench oscilloscope, handheld 'scope, or a graphical multimeter should also do the job, although I've never actually used the latter. With a 'scope in AC-coupled mode, and utilising the full range of timebase settings, the time-period of the noise/spikes (assuming they're regular and repetitive) should give a clue to the source. That's all well and good if the shop has such equipment, but not much use if they don't.

The first thing I'd want to eliminate would be the alternator. Some low level of AC ripple from an alternator is normal, and your Ford service manual might specify a maximum permissible ripple voltage, which would likely be in the tenths-of-a-volt range, maybe 0.1V to 0.3V AC, something like that, so that would be an easy first check if you can find it in the specifications.

Testing for noise or spikes with a regular meter though is likely to be a fruitless exercise. You might try switching the meter to its lowest AC voltage range, measure at the PCM, then move back to the battery, and if the amplitude increases there then move back to the alternator's B+ output terminal and see if it increases again - if it does then that might suggest that the alternator is the source, but if it decreases then the source is likely elsewhere.

I wouldn't even waste time on that though - I'd just temporarily disable the alternator and, for test purposes only, run the van on the battery alone - that guarantees a smooth, clean, spike-and-ripple-free power source, so if the idle, near-stalling, and unstable voltage problems persist then the alternator will have been eliminated, but if the problems vanish then the alternator would very likely be faulty.

My wiring diagrams are showing fuse T (15amp, engine compartment fuse box) as feeding the alternator field coil, so with engine and ignition switched off, removing that fuse should disable the alternator. After the test, switch engine and ignition off again before replacing the fuse.

To answer your other questions, a bad wire with some broken strands would not produce back-emf provided at least some of the strands were still intact. It could however cause unstable voltage, because if current varies in the load which it feeds, then voltage dropped across the wire would also vary, hence giving a fluctuating, unstable voltage at the load.

Back-emf is generated when the current to an inductive load is switched off, and the greater the value of the inductance, the greater the value of the current, and the more rapidly it is switched off, then the greater the amplitude of the spike will be. An inductor is just a coil of wire, so anything which contains a coil will generate back-emf. So that would include motors, relays, fuel injectors (which are really just solenoid valves), other solenoids, A/C clutch coil, etc., etc. So without the help of an oscilloscope to get a look at the noise/spikes, and establish the frequency, it could be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

I'd disable the alternator though, and see if that shines any light on the situation.

Oh and by the way, I went back to your first post on page one to see if the alternator had ever been replaced, and while I was reading it I noticed you said that disconnecting the alternator ground lead disabled the rest of the van's electrics. That just doesn't sound right at all, because in addition to a grounding strap from battery negative terminal to engine, there would also normally be another from negative terminal to chassis at the firewall or fender, so detaching the alternator ground lead wouldn't normally disable anything else. Did you ever check out the grounding arrangements in the service manual, to ensure that a grounding strap hasn't been omitted at some point - specifically, one from negative terminal to chassis?

Here's a way to test if you have an injector stuck open. Get a mechanics stethoscope. Cost around $10 at the autoparts store. Place the probe against an injector body. You'll hear it clicking very fast. Do this with each injector and listen for any differences. If they all sound about the same then they all are pulsing about the same. You should be able to hear a difference if one injector is staying open much longer than the others. It takes about 5 minutes for me to listen to the injectors on my wife's Windstar or my daughter's Escort.

Selectron - Thanks for sticking with me. I wish you didn't live all the way in the UK. I hope you have some time for some more questions. :) See below. I welcome everyone's help of course.

I very rigorously have reviewed the graphics/diagrams in the Ford documentation for all grounds. Unless there are undocumented grounding points, I have physically visited them all except the 1 in the rear of the vehicle for the signal lights. I removed all of them and cleaned (sanded) their ends and mount points very well. Negative battery cables were inspected and grounds tested via multimeter for continuity.

I thought on modern vehicles that depend on electronic fuel injection if you pulled the alternator out of the loop the engine would not fire the spark plugs? So how could I run it without the battery?

You bring up a good point about pulling the alternator grounding strap. According to my documentation there are no ground straps that run to the vehicle firewall. The only grounding straps I know are grounding the engine to the chassis are the alternator strap and the main largest gauge negative battery cable which mounts to a large bolt down below at the transmission bell housing. I'm pretty sure I've continuity tested this cable before, but maybe its possible there is no continuity between the transmission and engine case? Maybe this old cable is fried?

The alternator has been replaced technically only 1 time and it was unnecessary to do so, and while I ended up with a good one in the end I had to go through 3 bad ones from the shelf before finding a good one.


WINDINGS & Back-EMF - Apparently man you were right all along. You said months ago it was Back-EMF. What I'm thinking now is to approach this as a "detective" would a case.

Since we now know there is a SPIKE or Back-EMF problem and these are caused by something with a coil winding I've got my Detective cap on now. We have to make a list of possible culprits based on this generic list you gave me:

Motors, relays, fuel injectors (which are really just solenoid valves), other solenoids, A/C clutch coil

Please help me populate the list if I am missing anything.

Possible Coil-Winding Items that could cause back EMF in the engine bay:
1. Radiator fan motors (though they are new)
2. A/C Clutch coil (new)
3. Fuel injectors (new)
4. Fuel pump motor (new)
5. Ignition coils (new, but performance coils, though this problem existed with the OEM coils in as well)
6. IAC motor (new)
7. ECT (not new, but does this have a coil winding in it???)
8. Alternator (new)
9. All relays in engine fuse box and cabin fuse box (originals; though I did swap the PCM relay once and it did nothing)
10. IAT (not new, but does this have a coil winding in it???)
11. MAF (not new, but does this have a coil winding in it???)
12. CAS (original)
13. CPS (new)
14. Camshaft synchronizer (new) (may not need to be on the list)
15. A/C blower motor (original)
16. O2 (not new, but does this have a coil winding in it???)
17. TPS (not new, but does this have a coil winding in it???)
18. Rad cooling fan dropping resistor (this valid for the list?)
19. Accessory relays. In addition to #9, I wonder if an accessory relay not associated with engine operation could be causing the problem.
20. VSS (new; though the spike has been observed at idle)
21. ......???

I thought on modern vehicles that depend on electronic fuel injection if you pulled the alternator out of the loop the engine would not fire the spark plugs?
Not that I'm aware of. There will be some minimum voltage threshold below which the various electronic control modules will not operate reliably, but I'd guess that would be down around the 10.5V mark. Running on the battery alone, after starting the engine, the voltage would likely be around 12.4V, falling gradually and steadily - it should remain above 12V and run the engine reliably for a reasonable period of time. I don't know in which year it started, but later Windstars have the alternator's voltage regulator under the control of the PCM, but your '95's regulator is a fairly basic, traditional, standalone circuit.

So how could I run it without the battery?
I assume you've just made a typo there, because what I was suggesting was to run it without the alternator, and I don't see that there would be any problem in doing that.

The heavy duty ground cable at the transmission will be the main engine ground - it grounds the engine and its accessories - injectors, sensors, etc., but its primary purpose (and the reason why it's such a large diameter) is to carry the relatively massive current (a couple of hundred amps maybe) which is drawn briefly by the starter motor when cranking the engine. If there's no separate ground lead from battery negative terminal to chassis, then it would appear that the alternator ground lead is indeed the main chassis ground - chassis connects to engine via that lead, and the engine then connects to battery negative terminal via the main engine ground lead at the transmission, which effectively places the two ground leads in series.

If that's the way it was designed, and provided that both of the leads and their connections are in good condition then that's fine, but it wouldn't harm to do a couple of voltage measurements just to verify that everything is in order. I'd scrape a small patch on the engine so that you can get a good contact onto bare metal, and also choose a point on the chassis - maybe the head of the bolt which secures the alternator ground lead to the body - and scrape it so that you can contact bare metal there too. Then start the engine and switch some accessories on so that you increase the current flow through those ground leads - maybe the headlamps, A/C and blower motor, and then take a voltage measurement from battery negative post (black probe) to engine (red probe), and then from battery negative post (black probe) to chassis (red probe). Ideally, there should be no voltage dropped across those points, but in practice you will see some small voltage - I'd be happy with 0.1V or less. If you see anything higher, then that probably indicates that there is excessive resistance somewhere in the two ground leads or their connections.

If some voltage was being dropped across the engine ground lead but the chassis ground lead was still good, then that wouldn't necessarily be a problem because both engine and chassis would be at the same voltage. If however the engine ground lead was good but voltage was being dropped across the chassis ground lead, then the vehicle would effectively be running on two different supply voltages, with the engine and its components - injectors, sensors etc. - running at one voltage, and everything which grounds via the chassis running at some other, lower voltage. That could cause all sorts of problems, especially if the PCM grounds to the chassis, so the chassis ground lead from alternator to body is the one which I would be most concerned about.

I'm not convinced that you have a problem with back-emf, so I don't know if it's a good idea to start heading down that path, but I'll think some more about that and get back to you later.

Yeah, typo. I wrote that whole post while falling asleep. :)

The ground lead from alternator to body/chassis is an old ground cable that I pulled off my other car when I upgraded its grounding cables with a kit. I "think" its in ok condition and is certainly an upgrade from what Ford had put there before (one of those flat exposed metal ground straps; looks like a metal flat belt), still it is also a very old cable as my car is a 95 as well.

Besides that, the main ground lead from tranny to battery is the original that came with the Windstar. I redid the end that meets up with the battery because it didn't have much contact metal touching the battery anymore (corrosion), but I always figured the cable itself was still good and the end that grounds to the tranny I figured was still good too. Maybe its not.

The shop is who has told me that the PCM is seeing voltage spikes. Though, I do not know how (what equipment) they verified that spikes are present, but the guy says he's 100% sure its receiving voltage spikes.

They have all manner of equipment there, unlike most other smaller outfits around here, because they also have to work on commercial vehicles for other companies. IE: I was going to buy them a breakout box to test component voltages with, but they already have one. - Which to me says a lot about them vs most other places... just the fact that they have a FORD breakout box tells me something.

WHOA!!! on running 2 different voltages. Thats pretty fascinating Spock (:lol:)! :iceslolan - I sure as hell would've never thought of that and that fact alone makes me want to (even though its just a van) put some type of grounding kit on it.

Besides that, I haven't had the van in my possession now for a solid 4 months, but as I do recall testing voltage at the battery vs at the alternator did variate more than just 0.1V. I'm almost 100% sure of this and I might've even put it somewhere in this thread since I have been trying to document everything no matter how small.

Basically that means that both or 1 of the grounding cables from the alt or engine is on its way out. If I had to guess I bet its the one by the battery. Its 4x the length longer than the one by the alternator and has been paid attention to less cause I thought it was ok. I'm pretty sure I resistance tested the alternator cable before putting it on too.

In any case I would feel better if there was a 2nd ground cable going to the battery from the engine and also a 2nd ground cable going to the chassis from the alt/engine.

If you "DO" feel like this may be back-emf (which you were pretty sure of a while back hehe lol), then which of the items on that list I made could I remove. The ones with RED next to them I am unsure if they have coil windings in them. I know they don't have motors though, but I figured something like the ECT might have a certain number of windings in it to detect temperature.

2k3windstar - Thank you for that information on listening to the injectors. I'm beyond that point though. Injectors are new and we definitely have a voltage problem.

All this talk of back EMF (which I am familiar with in my work.....fortunately not on my vehilce).....brings be back many pages ago.....that you noticed the issue with the radiator fans turning OFF.....which would be in line with the back EMF.
Thing is......those fan motors are not all that big.......AND....one major function of the Battery is to serve a a BIG capacitor.....and absorb voltage spikes that happen in the system.

NOW, the digram for the CCRM for my '96 shows a diode across the COIL for the radiator LOW speed relay, which seems to connect 1 end to B+ and the other end to a "power inverter".
There is NO diode on the radiator fan power....but when the relays open, there should be NO connection of the radiator fan motor to B+.....it is just hanging there open.....not connected.
The other end of the radiator fan motors connect to ground.

There are diodes for the A/C condensor clutch coil relay power contact and the fuel pump relay....these are on the condensor clutch and fuel pump side of the circuits.
power contact.....both on the A/C.
These 3 diodes are for back EMF induced voltages.

All 3 radiator fan relay contacts are in parallel........low speed provides power through the dropping resistor.......and the 2 high speed relays provide power directly from B+.

I see diodes that protect systems from spikes......but none directly on the B+ for the radiator fans.

The diode in the engine compartment power distribution box "D1" is listed as protecting the "hood switch".

Did this problem take place with BOTH the old and the new radiator fans?

I remember that you replaced the CCRM a while back....because I was thinking that it was causing this......and it did not change the problem.
Relay contacts opening......removing the 1 fans from the circuit.....should not put any kind of surge into the system.....because the fan motors are not connected.....except to ground.

Fans are new. Didn't change anything, though it is religious... every time the fans cut OFF it tries its near stall thing.

Wiswind - Maybe you have it.

Battery as a big capacitor - What if it is like Selectron theorizes and I'm running 2 different voltages because of the ground cables from the engine/chassis/battery?

My point: If the battery weren't grounded good enough would this condition cause voltage spikes & more importantly if the battery isn't grounded good enough perhaps this removes the Battery as a "big capacitor" for absorbing spikes, thus why the PCM is seeing the spikes?

Other problem though - I don't think the spike or irregular voltage is just happening after radiator fans turning off. I think its happening constantly while the KOER. I say this because the shop that found the spike condition they claim exists said that they can watch the van idle and peg out 199% on short term fuel trim whereas that number isn't supposed to be more than like -/+ 2 to 5% or so.

So with the spikes or irregular voltage running constantly the bad ground from the engine to chassis/battery may be the simplest culprit of them all. IF it turned out to be that, I don't know how I'd be able to forgive myself after all this.

I will not be able to visit the van till after Jan 1st, so until then I won't be able to go inspect/test the battery to engine cable.

It's been a while since we were discussing the fans so it's easy to lose track, but there is in fact a path from the high end of the fans straight into the PCM on the '95, via fuse W. On the '96 model that path no longer exists. I assume the PCM monitors the voltage at pin 4 to verify that the fans have been successfully activated. That doesn't require a 10 amp fuse though, so why it's rated so high is a bit of a puzzle. If the fans were generating back-emf which wasn't being suppressed at source then it was that path directly into the PCM that I was concerned about. That's all pretty much history now though because the replacement fans made no difference, eh. Oh and here's the diagram:

'95 3.8L Windstar cooling fan wiring diagram (http://selectron.webs.com/1995-windstar-cooling-fans.pdf)

I'm still reluctant to start chasing a back-emf problem which may not even exist. I was suspicious of the fans initially because the symptoms were so typical of an unsuppressed spike - the switching off of an inductive load being immediately followed by odd behaviour elsewhere in the circuit, but aside from that I have no reason to suspect back-emf problems.

I wouldn't really want to delve much further without first verifying that the chassis ground is good. You can assume that the engine ground is ok, because if it wasn't then it wouldn't be able to carry the cranking current, but the chassis ground is an unknown factor until you can get a measurement of the voltage drop between battery negative terminal and chassis, with some heavy loads - e.g. A/C, headlamps, blower motor - switched on.

Earlier, I said to maybe measure the voltage on the bolt which secures the alternator ground lead to the body, but on second thoughts that isn't a great place to test, because the lead might be making good contact with the bolt, but not with the body. Therefore find another point on the body some distance away from the chassis ground lead and test there instead.

Just looked at the diagram.......learn something new every day.
With all the work you have already done to verify your ground connections.....I find it unlikely that you would still have a ground issue relative to the negative terminal of the battery to the chassis, motor or PCM.
HOWEVER....maybe another check to verify that the radiator fans (BOTH OF THEM) have a good continuity to ground......
Maybe also verify the connections to the B+ supply connections to the CCRM......
New fans and new CCRM.......and several PCM units.......and much circuit connection verifications.......the fan motor ground connections don't come up in my short memory of things that have been verified......unless I forgot or missed it.

One thing......how old is the battery?
Did this problem exist with 2 different batteries.........if not.....maybe you can come up with a good battery to try.....without having to shell out money for a new one........just to try a theory?.....

If one decided to add a diode to the radiator fan circuit.......it would be from the B+ to the fan to ground........with the band......NEGATIVE end......CATHODE end of the diode to B+......so that it will NOT conduct when the fans are ON.....but will conduct a negative polarity voltage to ground.........which is what the back EMF would generate.
1 diode would be sufficient for both fan motors.
My personal opinion is that adding a diode across the fan motors will not help.
I would try the battery experiment first.

I had a wonderful high cca new battery in there from up North in IL a while back and whatever this problem is ruined that battery. It killed a cell in it. The 45 minute battery testing machine at wal-mart said it had a bad cell and they prorated me a new battery. The battery in there now is less than a year old and I'm sure I probably put that somewhere in this long storybook thread of mine.... lol.... but again I'm just sayin..... cause I don't mind repeating anything at this point.

Does that tell us anything? That a battery was ruined by this condition? That other electrically related parts are blown out by this condition?

Is it possible for fuse "W" to be faulty in some way it could allow this stuff to happen?

Could a bad a/c high pressure cutout & fan switch cause this problem even if a/c is switched OFF? what about when switched on?

Does the evaporative emissions purge valve operate at set intervals, ie: after radiator fans cut off? Could this periodic valve opening/shutting be causing the voltage spikes?

Magic Question: What could go bad in the engine bay, after a complete physical disassembly of all parts involved with the engine, that would constantly cause a voltage irregularity or surges to the PCM?

Selectron said a few posts ago:
"If that's the way it was designed, and provided that both of the leads and their connections are in good condition then that's fine, but it wouldn't harm to do a couple of voltage measurements just to verify that everything is in order. I'd scrape a small patch on the engine so that you can get a good contact onto bare metal, and also choose a point on the chassis - maybe the head of the bolt which secures the alternator ground lead to the body - and scrape it so that you can contact bare metal there too. Then start the engine and switch some accessories on so that you increase the current flow through those ground leads - maybe the headlamps, A/C and blower motor, and then take a voltage measurement from battery negative post (black probe) to engine (red probe), and then from battery negative post (black probe) to chassis (red probe). Ideally, there should be no voltage dropped across those points, but in practice you will see some small voltage - I'd be happy with 0.1V or less. If you see anything higher, then that probably indicates that there is excessive resistance somewhere in the two ground leads or their connections."

I am not accustomed to taking VOLTAGE measurements in this manner. I have always taken voltage measurements from a NEGATIVE to POSITIVE source, but are you saying I can obtain a voltage reading by placing one probe on the negative battery terminal to the engine casted metal block? and then from neg bat terminal again to bare chassis metal too? Each of these will provide me a voltage reading? I'm not supposed to use the POSITIVE+ terminal of the battery for these tests?

Van is still sitting at the shop with zero word from them. As soon as I get there I will check into the main negative battery cable resistance and possibly replace it and verify the alternator ground cable connection as well.

This is finally becoming life affecting now as I need the van to move in a couple months. I have a new engine on the damn thing and a hitch..... the whole setup for travel and I can't use the damn thing. I am away from home at the moment (where I will move to) and when I get home I am going over to the shop to start directing and driving progress myself. I will ask the shop owner to tell me what to do and then do it at his shop or in the street in front of the shop.... I have to get this over with and selling the van is still just not an option.

Also, i almost forgot to say if i haven't already, that I am almost positive that in voltage tested, in the distant past, at the alternator positive terminal to the chassis and the positive battery post to the chassis show a variance of more than .1v. I did not do these tests with loads on though and I might've done them wrong if I should've been using negative post to engine block and negative post to chassis.

So, if this .1v variance does exist, I have found a big problem?

I would give the shop a call and let them know that you need to use the van at a given time.
This might get them to at least look at it for you.
This should be a solvable problem....with the proper equipment and know-how.

Just to clarify on the voltage checks - yes, I'm saying to measure from battery negative terminal to the engine block, and then again from battery negative terminal to chassis. That might seem a bit pointless since all of those points are 'ground', but in fact when current is flowing they will all be sitting at different potentials - i.e. different voltages. On a vehicle in which the electrical system is in good working order, the voltage differences would be so low as to be negligible - maybe 0.1 or 0.2 volts, but in a case such as yours where the symptoms might be caused by a fault in the electrical system, it's important to check that you're not dropping excessive voltage across those ground connections. As I already said, the engine ground from battery negative to the transmission is almost certainly good, because if it wasn't then it wouldn't be able to carry the starter motor's relatively massive cranking current. The lead running from alternator to the body is the one which you really need to confirm is in good shape, and the way to do that is to pass some current through it and measuring the resulting voltage, so that means engine running, with at least the headlamps and blower motor switched on. Ideally you want to see not much more than 0.1V being dropped at that point.

I don't recall checking the voltage drop between alternator output terminal and battery, and if that hasn't been done then that has been a big omission so be sure to check it. Engine running again, with at least the headlamps and blower motor switched on. Red probe to alternator output terminal, black probe to battery positive post, and measure onto the post itself if possible rather than the connector. Voltage drop there should probably be around 0.2 volts - your Ford CD might indicate the maximum permitted drop. When taking a reading such as that with a running engine, it's a lot easier and safer to use test leads having insulated alligator clips instead of probes, which you can clip into position before starting the engine, making it a hands-free task.

I am still on sabbatical (hehe) away from home and the van. I'm visiting my gf and she and I had a brainstorming session night to come up with some creative ideas to hopefully lead me to a repaired vehicle. Before I get to that I wanna cite this:

Selectron: "As I already said, the engine ground from battery negative to the transmission is almost certainly good, because if it wasn't then it wouldn't be able to carry the starter motor's relatively massive cranking current"

Is it possible this connects to a clue here? Just a couple days ago I finally heard from the shop working on the thing again and he told me there is definitely something electrical with a wire or something going on. He had to replace the negative battery terminal because he said there was a voltage drop happening there. I assume he meant the terminal end that connects the ground cables to the battery post and not the battery post itself. I've always thought of the post as a terminal, but I guess thats not correct terminology.

Anyway, he now tells me that the starter motor is now gone. This is the first thing I replaced THE VERY DAY I bought the van somewhere in 2004 - 2005 I guess. Its where everything started (ironically).

Is it possible that the shop has identified the cable going from the battery to the tranny ground point is bad without knowing it..... since he replaced the terminal end for the neg cables at the battery post?

I called them back and told'em that it'd happened to me one time that the starter signal cable (what I call the smallest wire on the starter; attached to a spade wire connector) had come loose and I had to recrimp it. If it wasn't seated right, I'd get ZERO noise/response from under the hood like he is getting now. I didn't have time to ask him more, but if it is turning over I bet that fuse "S" is a possible culprit.

Known testing that produced an error behavior:
1. Long time ago, while testing voltage's at the fuel injector wiring harness while injector's were unplugged and Key On Engine Off fuse S blew. Also during this testing I was manipulating/moving the wiring that had scorched in the past.... though not enough to remove and melt off the plastic sheath's of the wires.

2. While spraying water on and around the old set of spark plug wires, near the plugs and near the coils and on the engine metal around all that the van began to run differently and at times it actually ran like it was supposed to run, but then would start running as if it were misfiring and then through a code. Perhaps my water test caused one of the spark plug wires to blow? - If this were the case would this mean something regarding engine block grounding being bad since I only sprayed on the engine block areas?

3. High humidity day and when attempted to start the engine it misfired a lot. This was prior to my spray water test.

4. Blown electrical components of the past: IAC, MAF, PCM, Battery and now possibly the Starter blown from this unknown electrical issue too? I think it was an Autozone starter though. Pushing 4 - 5 years of use, but light use as in that time period the van has only gone maybe 20 - 25k miles.

5. On Original engine, sometimes I would get zero dome lights and zero crank... zero electricity period from the battery when it would rain. I would have to try to jiggle the ground strap from the alternator to the chassis and/or blow on it to get rid of moisture. I always felt this was a weak ground spot, but was never sure if it was there or the battery too.

6. Jiggling the short POSITIVE battery cable that leads to the engine bay fuse box would turn the hood light ON and OFF. I replaced the cable and since have not had that trouble, but if that cable was bad (looked charred inside the sheath) what about the other positive cable from the alt to the battery? This is a reason to do the voltage drop test from POS alt terminal to the POS post on battery..... I see this now.

Brainstorming session with my GF:

First off, yes I have a woman cool enough to do this stuff with. :) She's got "know-how" and practical thinking.

Ideas of the Cause:
1. She thinks the Overheating engine, way back, may have damaged something else in the engine bay that is causing this problem because it wasn't till the new engine was installed that I had this trouble. Only problem with that is while its a good way to think and very possible, its also almost equally likely someone put a wire somewhere they shouldn't have when reassembling the engine bay.

2. Humidity - bad ground or short circuit

Possible Options to lead to a fix:
1. Redo the PCM wiring that was scorched repeatedly by laying on the DPFE/EGR pipe long time ago..... as in cut sections of it out and replace with new wire and recrimp/tape.

It was after manipulation of this wiring area that Fuse "S" blew, though without the plastic having melted OFF (though it did melt them together and they had to be peeled apart again) I am skeptical on whether the wires are damaged. I wonder though if repeated HEAT exposure may have changed the conductivity of these lil wires (what are they 12 & 14 gauge?) causing bad voltage or lack of stable voltage from possible charring inside the wire sheaths?

2. CAS is original. Long shot cause of no codes, but if electrical is shot then PCM is unreliable right?????? Should we assume the PCM isn't reliable till this is fixed, therefore assume codes are a bunch of bs?

3. EVAP valve - This has bothered me for a while because it is intermittment and I have always wondered if the EVAP valve purges when the radiator fans turn OFF and if they do so also a few seconds afterwards. It is also the original part.

4. Alternator positive cable - Check voltage and continuity to fuse box.

5. A/C Blower Motor - Could this affect system voltage even though it isn't on? What about if it is ON? Could it back feed the system? Does this motor come out when the engine comes out? I don't know where it is and I am without my CD-ROM.

6. Could wiring harness above the radiator have melted when engine overheated? ABove the radiator security tied in a plastic encasing to the chassis metal along the front of the engine bay is wiring that runs from the alternator and PCM wiring. Could this be melted and I not have ever seen it? I ask because the radiator got hot enough to crack during the overheat episode.

7. TIME IT - The blips in idle. I want to time them and see if they are a reliable pattern of seconds/intervals. My hope is that this would lead to some item in the engine bay that performs some duty at the same time intervals and perhaps we could figure it out from there. IE: #3 Evap valve, etc..

8. Thermal imaging reader/display or infrared laser thermometer - By chance I know someone with these and I wonder if I used them both to point at cables in the engine bay, while the engine is running, if this would show me metal or cables that are hotter than they should be. From what I've read a shorted circuit or feedback electricity would get very hot.

9. Water test - Produced/caused a faulty spark plug wire. If so, wouldn't this mean something is grounded to the engine block that shouldn't be.... or the opposite? Are we sure that RED Wire that is all alone by itself that stems off the PCM wiring harness is supposed to be mounted to the engine block? I cannot recall for sure, but I think someone told me this is the temperature sending unit for my gauge cluster. Still, it bothers me that it would be a RED wire and seems to bolt to the block itself..... unless I didn't see clearly enough that it was the sending unit bolt end and is in fact a stud for grounding to the engine BLOCK? That would be something else right there.

10. ECT - The engine overheated. I never replaced this because I ohmed it and it seemed fine, however what if its not? Could it OHM fine and not work right when the voltage is going through it? I Ohm'ed it with no voltage connected at the time. I Ohm'ed it just after shutting off a hot engine.

I found out an ECT is a thermistor. Referencing that I looked up more info and:
A bad ECT can give you:
-trouble starting at hot temps
-using more fuel than usual

.... and I have both of those symptoms.

http://www.temperatures.com/thermistors.html
http://www.capgo.com/Resources/Temperature/Thermistor/Thermistor.html

I cite the following section of this wikipedia article because it gave me the idea again of a bad ground and has all the same symptoms I'm having now, including injectors shooting full time again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digifant_Engine_Management_system#Maintenance_of_o lder_Digifant_vehicles

250 degrees Celsius = 482 degrees Fahrenheit - This was a temperature limit for a thermistor in one of the links I cited. Just as a basis for what is too high a temp for a thermistor, I wonder if my engine overheating ruined the ECT in such a way that it wouldn't throw a code and could be causing irregular voltage to run through the system?

My temperature gauge got up way above the H during original engine overheating and I would estimate this to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 - 500 degrees since between the "A" and "M" on the gauge is roughly already 200 degrees. That sound right to ya'll?

11. A wire that could've been put where it doesn't belong? How many places in the engine bay is this possible? From the use of connectors it doesn't seem very likely, but during reinstallation of the new engine, where could this have happened the wrong way?

.....and......... deep breath....... ahhhh thats my long long long a__ post for the day.

While I think that the overheating could be a factor......I think a more likely cause is the 2 engine changes.
There is a LOT off opportunity to damage a wire(s) while doing a engine swap.....taking the motor out.....AND putting the motor in.

I agree with you.

Bad news. Shop is throwing in the white flag. They are done. They want me to come get it.

I called the original shop that installed the 2 engines and he's gonna take it over. I told him I'm out of money and that I'm appealing to his personal nature since this has never worked right since the engine installation. He wants to see it again and look it over. Sounds like he'll work with me. At least now we are sure there is some electrical anomaly going on and can work from there.

The hard part though is, that I'm going to have a huge bill and no fix at the other shop I'll be picking it up from.

I think this experience underscores just how complex a machine this is. Mechanical, chemical, and electronic systems, all need to be working properly.

What started out as a simple issue with a water pump (at least the first post I recall) seems to have escalated to a tangled mess of computer circuits, cooling fans, wiring harnesses, and fuel systems. It looks like divine inspiration (or a factor engineer) is the only avenue to bring it back to health, but I hope your engine installer can do the trick.

I've had a similar experience with my transmission, where I just can't get rid of the TCC chatter. The rebuilder has tried at least a dozen times to take care of it, even rebuilding it again in the process. Still, 2 yrs and 65k miles later the chatter persists. I think I'll take one last shot at the dealer, but that's it.

Does anyone know if this thread is a record breaker on this entire web site? Record breaker (# of posts) for just this Windstar Category? :|

I have some potentially serious bad news. It seems that waiting too long for a repair shop to handle a vehicle problem can be detrimental to one's mental health and especially one's wallet.

When they threw in the towel this means me paying a huge bill for absolutely nothing. No fix. 6 months of wasted time and lost use of the van for nothing. I have thought of going to pick it up and not paying, but apparently that could land me arrested or the vehicle seized.

The details are here if anyone wants to look:
http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94113

At this point in time, besides all that writing in that legal forum, I've decided to call the shop and ask what the bill is because they have never once discussed it, gave estimate, gave labor hours, nothing.... not a single word. All I know for sure is the bill was at least at $500 a couple months ago and I only got that much info because she was guessing and not really looking at my bill.

I refuse to pay over $300 for their time as now they've broken my starter and for all I know my battery is dead too. It will be a battle negotiation and if they refuse to my terms I will take them to Small Claims court for any amount over the $300.

Does anyone know if this thread is a record breaker on this entire web site? Record breaker (# of posts) for just this Windstar Category? :|

I have some potentially serious bad news. It seems that waiting too long for a repair shop to handle a vehicle problem can be detrimental to one's mental health and especially one's wallet.

When they threw in the towel this means me paying a huge bill for absolutely nothing. No fix. 6 months of wasted time and lost use of the van for nothing. I have thought of going to pick it up and not paying, but apparently that could land me arrested or the vehicle seized.

The details are here if anyone wants to look:
http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94113

At this point in time, besides all that writing in that legal forum, I've decided to call the shop and ask what the bill is because they have never once discussed it, gave estimate, gave labor hours, nothing.... not a single word. All I know for sure is the bill was at least at $500 a couple months ago and I only got that much info because she was guessing and not really looking at my bill.

I refuse to pay over $300 for their time as now they've broken my starter and for all I know my battery is dead too. It will be a battle negotiation and if they refuse to my terms I will take them to Small Claims court for any amount over the $300.
I'll tell you what, I am seriously considering getting rid of mine and buying a Honda Odyssey. And I haven't near as much trouble with it as you have had with yours. The only reason I haven't as of yet is because of the fairly new jasper engine in it and only about 10K on the tranny rebuild. I thought after the tranny rebuild, what else could go wrong? Wish I hadn't said that, I am still considering a large pit and a RPG, instant gratification.

uzzo2 - where's your thread again? I think I replied to it the other day.

If I hadn't put so much into this van I would have gotten rid of it a while back and gotten an Odyssey or a Quest. The compounded problem is that I'm also currently unemployed and in the middle of a "move" to another address. Anyways...... GOOD NEWS:

FINALE'

Just a couple hours ago I called the shop and said, "Hey its me with the van. Is this Joe The Repair-man (false name)?" He replied: "Yes." Me: "Well, I'm calling to find out the bill so I can come pickup my van." Him:"Hold on a second." ....waiting.... for about a minute..... Him:"You know, I don't know how many hours I spent working on the thing, but it was a lot. Why don't you pay me whatever you think is fair and we'll call it even?"

So what did I do? What did I say? Weighing my personal finance situation (as I am unemployed at the moment; didn't mention that before) and weighing the time I know they've had to spend on it from things they've told me in the past and finally weighing the most important part that Joe The Repair-man did the right thing (since the van isn't fixed) I did the right thing in return and had I been working I probably would've paid him more.

..... Resume Joe The Repair-man and I's conversation..... My response to his offer: "How does $300 sound?" - Him:~~A brief pause~~"Ok, that sounds fine. When are you coming to pick it up?" Me: "Either tomorrow afternoon or sometime Friday."

In comparison to all that worrying/discussion time the past week, that conversation took place in less than a minute and solved all the worries. Sometimes it is just better to talk to people than to think & write.

I am glad it was resolved this way and this is actually the kind of response I would expect them to deliver as their knowledge and care for the customer's vehicle is why I always went to them in the past & first place.

So anyway, back to the drawing board. I begin again next week at the engine installer's shop for the millionth time.

The laws regarding mechanic's leans and estimates differ from state to state.....
It is funny seeing UZZO2's post in this thread.....because I just came from reading his posts today.....and as I was reading them.....I was thinking to myself "I hope this does not turn out to be another thread like Searcherr's multipage post.
You both seem to be having a strange electrical problem.

I broke down and bought a 2003 Toyota Sienna.
I bought it from my parents, who replaced it with a 2010 Sienna.
They sold it to me for "trade in value".
I was planning to get another vehicle next year, but this opportunity to get a low mileage (86K) that I know has been well cared for came up now.
My father starts pestering me about replacing my vehicles when I get close to 100K miles.......my windstar has over 220K miles....so I have been hearing from him for a while.
I bought my windstar 11 years ago and it has been my only vehicle.....so I feel like I have gotten my money's worth.
My 2003 is just after the "sludge issue" that went into 2002 for that motor.
2003 is the last year for the "1st generation" Sienna, they made them bigger starting in 2004.

I still have my windstar, and even when I let it go.....I will continue to stay with this room.
My pictures get over 1600 views each week.......over 447K views total, so hopefully they are helping some folks save money and keep their old girls going.

It is a shame that you have spent so much money, and don't have a working vehicle to show for it.
The shop should have been keeping you posted on what your bill was........it is only ethical.
Just read your update.....we seem to have been both typing at the same time......

I think the biggest question now is does this mean your name will now be: Wisienna ? LOL

Too bad I missed ya that night we both were typing at the same time. :)

Today, the van got towed from the "6 month wait Shop" to the "Engine Installer Shop". Waiting for me when I got there was a sliding side door that was cracked open, a dead battery, a broken starter and a missing extra PCM. I gave them 2 extras to play test with. They cannot find the other one and supposedly will call me Monday to figure things out.

I brought my Dad with me (meaning I brought anger with me) and sometimes thats good to have cause he's great using his old salesman skills on people when he needs to. We waited for them to look for the computer and nothing. Finally when the tow truck was about the arrive I asked the lady (wife of the owner) what we were going to do about the bill due to the missing computer. She just handed me the key and said we'll call you Monday. IE: I walked out without seeing, discussing or paying a bill. GOOD NEWS RIGHT?

Well, I don't know. I am hoping with the ROARING ENERGY of the New Orleans area and the Saints being in the Super Bowl stuff this Sunday, that they will forget about me Monday and that I will not have a bill to pay and just deal with all the incidentals I mentioned to be free of them. I still have 2 extra PCMs. I had 3 and cautioned myself when I gave them the 2 to not give them all 3 and I'm glad I did.

You would think the worst part about all of this is the van is still broken and more so than before not to mention losing a computer somewhere, but I think the worst part about all this is their negligence.

Negligence: Apparently it was discussed with us by one of their tech's when we were there waiting that they believe its the PCM wiring harness and that it needs to be replaced. This is a blanket approach because they (me too) are tired of trying to find the wiring problem. There was some mention by the tech that the owner was trying to find me a new harness, but couldn't find one anywhere.

I think I'm going to replace the wiring sections I know are in question and if that doesn't resolve it with also a new ground wire kit (adding grounds), charged battery, new starter, etc.. then I'll resort to a search for a full new PCM wiring harness myself.

I'm also gonna first do the tests that Selectron mentioned and anything else discussed in the previous recent posts.

At least I didn't have to pay a bill. A huge bullet (MISSILE) may have been dodged. We'll see.

I would look for a wiring harness from a salvage yard.
Trying to buy that stuff new is going to get expensive really fast.
If you cannot find it locally, try surfing Ebay......contact one of the part sellers and see what you can work out.
Some salvage yards sell on ebay.......and if you want a part that they don't have listed......you can ask them to put a listing up for it.....which they most likely will be very happy to do knowing that they have someone who will bid on it.
Ebay rules may prevent them from negotiating a sale outside of ebay through a contact that they made through ebay.......

I am not planning to change my screen name.....
Changing name is supposed to be bad luck....although I did change my dog's name.
I forgot to ask my co-worker his name when I picked him up.......and named him Gus.
I found out later that his name had been Mike......and liked Gus better.
It was me giving Gus a home, or he was going back to the pound.....
I am his 5th home that I know of.......and he was only 8 months old when I got him!
He needed a change of luck.......although he has been quite the challenge

I am still surfing......looking for a good Sienna forum.
I have started posting in the Sienna room here.....although I don't have much to offer as of yet.
I started a small folder of pictures for the Sienna, not much in there yet.
Too cold here in Wisconsin to do much......
I plan to add a tranny cooler, do a exchange of fluids.....replace the thermostat (opening too cold), and replace the spark plugs.
It does use the SAME transmission fluid and power steering fluid (Dexron III which most Mercon V fluids also meet)....and I read up at the Wix and Purolator filter sites and found that the Windstar filter fits the Sienna.......exactly the same.....only longer.
It just had the timing belt changed......that is a job that I will have a shop do when the next 90K miles comes around........having read the instructions......not easy to do on this vehicle.
It is fun researching......learning about it, like I have been doing with my windstar.
It sure is a more complicated vehicle than my windstar.
It has a reputation for being very reliable.
A friend told me that if I got 11 years out of my windstar.......the Sienna should last me the rest of my life.......I don't know about that......I plan to stick around and bother the world for a very long time.

I have been toying with the idea of moving my windstar pictures to another site.......webshots has become quite anoying for non-members.
If I do move it......I will update the location in my signature.
I have a large folder of the pictures on my computer......and photo-shopped some of them....making some things more clear......

Well, I was figuring this would almost exclusively have to be junk yards. The problem is that they just cut wires and send the parts with the connector and clipped wiring off to people. Gonna be hard to find an intact PCM harness for my entire engine bay (if I need to), but we'll see.

I am in the process of setting up a web server. If you are in a hurry it won't be up in time, but in the next 3-4 months it will be. I offer my site for Windstar pics to you for free & any I post as well. We could setup FTP or something and it could be raw pictures or some "free web viewer" could be looped into it all.

I would imagine that finding the service manual for the Sienna would be harder than finding the domestic stuff. True/False?

Thanks for the ideas about contacting ebay parts sellers to list for me specially.

In any case, I hope you stick around here for a long time, at least for my thread. :) ha haaa

To all my trolling followers and active followers:

I feel the end of this painstaking dreadful saga nearing. Since it was over at a shop for 6 months and they remained stumped on it, that tells me that this problem is not common and can only have a few things remaining. It has shifted my view away from common problems (though I have to keep them in the back of my head too) to the electrical veins of the fuel injection system.

I had always "wondered" this, and for the reason of not wanting to re-wire the van due to the time involved, it'd be way better (way less time wasted) than going through further torture, because getting rid of it isn't an option right now.

To me, in all this work I've done to improve the grounds and installing better cabling etc.., every time I have improved the grounds the problem has gotten worse or shown its ugly head more by either blowing a fuse or a component. IE: I think the starter blew after the shop installed a better negative terminal end to the battery cable.

They'd said there was a voltage drop there apparently due to a new negative terminal end I'd put on, but I'd never noticed it.

Proceeding forward:
To much of YOUR TIME and MY TIME and MY MONEY has been invested now to quit without a fix. I will not yield until this is resolved & again I do feel the end is near.

Get the van running again. Starter & Battery back to life.
Do discussed voltage tests etc..
I will also add a ground wiring kit or a few cables, though I do not anticipate this to resolve the problem. Does anyone have a suggestion on where to find good ground wires? AUTOZONE's ok?
Finally, repair (clip out & install new inline wire) or replace PCM wiring harness.
Cross fingers, pray to God, See if this is the end of this.


If I repair the PCM harness does anyone have a suggestion on how to reterminate the wiring? Should I use small straight wire tubes and crimp'em or should I go with wire nuts or something else? I ask cause whatever I use I want it to be able to hold up to "some" pulling.

Anyone know the part number to the fuel injection wiring harness in my 95 3.8L?

Anyone have any details on this recall from a long while back:
"1995: Wiring-harness insulation can abrade on a brace between instrument panel and cowl, resulting in short-circuit and possible fire."

Where would I look for this recall "spot" on my 95? I brought it in for all recalls a long time ago. You'd think they'd of checked for this, but I'd like to know where to check for that in case its happened on my van.

The engine installer shop wanted to put the starter and battery in themselves for free, so I let. Aside from that #1, the remaining items in the 1-5 list 2 posts ago haven't been done yet.

Hopefully sometime today I will learn that the van is running and go over there and satisfy my urges to do those lil voltage tests. Adding the ground wire kit (my idea) they thought wasn't necessary, but I still like the idea.

Hadn't heard on this, but I noticed something when I dropped it off. The new engine is painted gray on the heads. All the bolt holes on side the heads are also thoroughly coated gray. There is a ground lead that goes directly into the PCM wiring harness just under the area of the EGR pipe and bolts into the rear bank (logical right side of engine) rear side of the head. If the paint wasn't thoroughly scrapped off before installation that ground could very well be no good.

This gray paint also raises another question like what about the other pieces of the engine? Could the paint be separating the tranny and heads from the block thereby stopping grounding through those chunks of metal? or would the bolt threads through these parts likely scrap enough paint off to provide continuity?

I'd sketched up a ground wiring "network" idea that would link all the engine bay components together "for sure" with batt ground and chassis, but we'll see if they think I should or shouldn't do it. Personally, I think it would be a good thing to do to rule out grounds altogether, because my ground wiring "network" idea would put an end to the wonder about it.

On goes the waiting, but at another shop (the engine installer shop).

When I went over there to talk to them either last Monday or past Friday.... can't recall.. I was told they had a diesel bus in front of me and the owner can't work on my van till thats done. Suffice it to say though, once the bus is out of the way my van is "it" and he'll focus on it solely.

He has even said that he may involve someone he knows, an electrical engineer, to help finally resolve this problem. Sounds promising. I'm not getting charged anything, unless he has to "resort to" using the E.E. guy. I should've told him to use my Selectron. :) ha haaa

Anyway, the van continues to sit battery out and broken starter still in there. I have asked several times if I could go over there and plop it on the rack and do those parts for them to speed things up, but they insist on doing that for me cause they say it will take hardly any time at all.

Most of all I'm very hyped up about scrapping the paint off the engine block where the PCM harness grounds to the head and seeing if that resolves the entire issue. I would think that I would've checked this a long time ago, but I may have "assumed" that if it was grounding itself "inside the bolt hole" once fully tightened... but the deal is there is paint in there too.

Van still sitting in same parking lot position untouched.

I am going over there in the morning to begin work on it myself and finally do those tests that Selectron told me to do once I get it running again.

Question: Does the exhaust piping/assembly have to be electrically grounded/connected to the chassis for the O2 Sensors to work right or is the ground wire to the O2's supposed to be enough grounding for them?

I just came up with that the other day. Grasping at straws and even the cardboard box the straws come in.

The wiring diagrams are showing the heater circuit for each sensor as being completed by two wires, with the sensor circuit itself being completed by another two wires. No local ground is indicated so therefore I assume it's not required. When the local ground is crucial, such as that for the starter and alternator bodies, it would always be indicated on the diagram, and that just isn't the case for the sensors so I wouldn't worry about it. You'd have an almighty struggle anyway to get a clean and reliable ground on the average exhaust system, eh.

Your electrical system didn't kill the starter motor by the way - those things are pretty much bulletproof, electrically speaking. The one weak point which starters have is that they're unventilated, so excessive cranking can damage them because the heat build-up can be considerable. If it didn't just fail naturally then I'd guess it was pushed over the edge by excessive cranking with a somewhat flattened battery.

Speaking of your battery, it isn't a good idea to be leaving it for weeks unattended, and certainly not for months. I was reading the TSB which deals with excessive current drain on the '99 to '03 Windstars earlier to see if it mentioned the normal current drain in Sleep mode, which they did and it's stated as anywhere from 15mA to 30mA (0.015 to 0.03A). It's probably similar on your '95, but more importantly there's a paragraph which reads:
With a fully charged battery, it would take the Sleep mode current (in addition to the battery self-discharge) up to an estimated 1 month to fully discharge the battery.

That's something which you're going to have to keep in mind, because repeatedly draining a car battery to that extent will soon damage it - car starter batteries are different to deep-cycle batteries and they just aren't designed to withstand repeated deep discharges. While the car is at the shop though I suppose there isn't much you can do about it, but if a new battery is being fitted and if the van is going to be staying at the shop for a while then you might ask them to hook it up to a charger every two or three weeks to keep it from being excessively discharged. The average shop is probably just too busy to pay attention to that kind of detail though. Anyway, I hope that either yourself or the shop will soon make some progress with it.