The Phoenix is not Dead ?

DOCTORBILL · #1 02-01-2010, 07:46 PM

I think I found out today why my Metro "died" recently.

It was my fault....probably.

I went to the "Head Shop" where I originally (3 years ago) got The Phoenix's
Head rebuilt - to see what they charge nowadays to rebuild the head.
$135 plus parts. A Gasket "set" is $72.

They will put Stainless Steel Exhaust Valves in if I provide them...

I told them I had had them rebuild the Head in Feb 2006 and I have only about
30,000 miles on the rebuild.

The man said, "did you keep the EGR system free of carbon ?"
No...
"That will burn the Exhaust valves !"

OK - maybe I should open the TB and the galleries and clean them out often....

BUT - as I was leaving I said the Head Gasket is probably leaking Coolant.

"OH Hell" , he says, "That will burn your Exhaust Valves out immediately !"

So I told him I'd be in soon with the Head for another rebuild....

I left and then came back in to ask why the Head Gasket would have popped a leak?

"Did you retighten the Head Bolts after running the engine a while ?"

No...I didn't.

"There you go !"

I had not run the engine and then removed the Camshaft Cover and retorqued the Head Bolts...

I have probably been driving on borrowed time with a head not torqued on tight enough to
prevent the Head Gasket from eventually leaking coolant into the cylinders.

So now, when I go to remove the Head (when weather permits), I'll bet some,
if not all, the Head Bolts will come out very easily.

I have to learn from my mistakes.

You'd think I would have learned a lot, since I make so many of them !

We'll see what we'll see......

DoctorBill

Johnny Mullet · #2 02-01-2010, 08:46 PM

I find that strange. I have never "Re-torqued" head bolts since head bolts are pretty much torque to yield. I rebuilt mine 40K ago and it's running strong with no issues. My wife had 10k on her rebuild and no issues. A member on my forum had me rebuild his 13 months ago and he is still running strong after 60K. Never re-torqued a head bolt in my life.

Burnt valves are caused by ignition timing. Using a timing light and advancing it to 8-10 degrees beyond top dead center will ensure less carbon buildup.

Hugemoth · #3 02-01-2010, 10:14 PM

I always retorque head bolts, usually twice. First time after 100 or so miles, second time after about 500 miles. They say that if you use new head bolts you can get away without retorqueing but I would still play it safe.

My Swift 1.3 pings like crazy when the EGR passage through the head gets plugged, and that's with the timing set to factory specs.

BTW: I have about 45,000 miles on my rebuild with no problems except the defective valve seals that came in the original gasket set. Had to replace them after a couple thousand miles. Great running little engine with good power.

Q

DOCTORBILL · #4 02-02-2010, 12:41 AM

I love this....after a couple of weeks it will probably be 50:50 to retorque or
not to retorque !

So, being the very careful, anal retentive (as my wife says) person that I am,
I will retorque the Head Bolts - what's to lose ?

If this Freaking Eastern Washington weather would just let up on the drizzle,
I could get on with it.

DoctorBill

1951 Buick LeSaber

leonbentz · #5 02-03-2010, 02:22 PM

Yes, I had to have two exhaust valves replaced in mine, last summer too. I actually had all the valves replaced, because I had a set from a rebuild kit. Mine burned, on count of the cat plugging up. I wasn't loosing any coolant and I didn't retorque my bolts either. EGR is not an issue with mine, because I have none. A plugged cat is another thing to consider, if you nuke out exhaust valves.

doug2060 · #6 02-05-2010, 01:21 AM

Thank god I don't have the EGR in my metro's. Hey, Doc have you considered converting it to a non-EGR. Doing that may be more trouble than it's worth but WTF I'll throw it out there. As for the head bolt re-torque. If it is required the manual's WILL say to do so. The Metro manuals I have on hand (3 different ones) do not. This is assuming you use NEW head bolts. BEFORE I SAY THIS NEXT THING: Please do not take any offense to what I'm about to say if you work in a parts store or machine shop... Don't ever take any advice or opinions from parts store or machine shop employee as fact. It has been my experience that many of them do not even know what they are talking about. While some (few) are very experienced others can be very misleading as they think that just because they work there they KNOW IT ALL. For example, I had a smart ass machine shop guy with 20 years experience as he was sure to let me know several times argue with me for 10 minutes that there was no such thing as a 2.3 liter quad four engine and there was only a 2.4. He basically talked down on me like I was an idiot before his boss heard our discussion and told him he was wrong. From what I remember about reading your AWESOME rebuild posts you were very meticulous and did it right. These little engines work harder than most and this happens sometimes. Anyways... I put you some links up on your other post to some good priced parts. Good luck Doc...

DOCTORBILL · #7 02-06-2010, 06:07 PM

The weather got better and I took the Head off....

I have to work outside because my garage is full of crap...

Took Exhaust Manifold off - nuts & bolts turned like butter after using
Sili-Kroil. The nuts were not very tight at all !

Took nuts & Bolts off Intake Manifold - thank God for Sili-Kroil !

Loosened the Head Bolts in the order of tightening. Each one gave that "creak-bang" that I remembered from the original
job - except - they let loose so much easier (used Permatex Anti-Seize on the threads) than before. Number two Head
Bolt let go very easy.

Lifted the Head up and out.

Here is the Block Surface.

Close-up of Cylinder number one on the Head

Close-up of Cylinder number two on the Head

Close-up of Cylinder number three on the Head

The Exhaust Manifold Gasket

Intake Manifold Gasket

I have the Stainless Steel Valves and Special Head Bolts coming from the outfit that Johnny Mullet recommended -
[email protected]
they are in Canada.

Looking at the Valves - I don't think I needed to do a valve job....I don't see anything wrong with them.

My original guesstimate of a leaking Head Gasket looks correct to me -
like maybe it leaked into all three cylinders ! A complete breakdown...a "Catasrostroke" !

Am I wrong ?

Makes me wonder why I'm not supposed to use any gasket sealer with the Head Gasket !

...and - are some Head Gaskets better than others ?

DoctorBill

PS - This Advertisement is at the top of the Forum....anybody ever use it ?
Seems "Too good to be true" to me...
http://www.steelseal.com/?gclid=CPHC...FSAkagod0lTLGw
http://www.steelseal.com/how.asp

Metro Mighty Mouse · #8 02-06-2010, 07:14 PM

From the pictures I would say the leak was into the #2 cylinder. All the clean metal is from the water washing out the carbon.

MMM

DOCTORBILL · #9 02-06-2010, 07:33 PM

Then why was the Compression test result - 95 psi, 140 psi, 145 psi ?

Cylinder Number 1 was low.

Unless some chunk of crap happened to be lodged in the valve opening....

Anyway - even though I might not need it, I'm going to have the Stainless
Steel Valves put in and put 'er back together - I miss ma 'baby'....

...and I will retorque the Head Bolts at 100 mi and at 500 mi....just for the grins of it.

This 17 mpg thing with my Nissan Pathfinder (5,200 lbs empty) is killing me !

Oh - and yes Lord, I won't kill any more mice that get into The Phoenix ! Promise !
I'll trap 'em live and let 'em go...

DoctorBill

Johnny Mullet · #10 02-06-2010, 09:51 PM

If you remove the camshaft and lifters, this will have all the valves closed. Put the plugs back in and turn the head upside down so the valve faces are pointing up and level. Now fill all three combustion chambers with kerosene or even water and look for leakdown through the valves. This would demonstrate a compression loss.

The stainless steel valves will take a lot more time to lap in..............

I do notice some carbon buildup in that engine. This can be caused by ignition timing. I like to advance the ignition timing to about 8-10 degrees advanced instead of the 5 recommended by the factory. This keeps carbon somewhat under control. I also like to use Seafoam in my engine to keep the carbon from building........
http://geometroforum.com/topic/681815/

I cannot tell in your pics, but is the little oil check valve still in the block on the passenger front corner? Here is a pic.............

Also I do notice the cheap head gasket you used does not have the proper sized oil return holes. Apex and other brand head gaskets all have this issue. I use a Felpro or Dealership gasket, but always compare before buying. Note these pics.........

Wrong size oil return holes..............

Correct sized holes..............

DOCTORBILL · #11 02-06-2010, 10:04 PM

The Head Shop should lap in the SS Valves - I will make sure they do.

The Head Gasket I used 3 years ago - I THINK - was FelPro.
The Head Shop sold me a "set" for about half the store price.

I'd have to go back thru my old, old Thread on the rebuild to find which brand
Head Gasket they sold me....I tried to note down everything.

WHY are you not supposed to use a Gasket Compound - like maybe Permatex
Copper Spray-A Gasket on the Head Gasket ?

I don't understand that.....

If I remember right, I had the timing at what you recommend - fairly advanced.

I will go out tomorrow and look at that little check valve.

The Head is sitting on some newspapers in the garage.

Would it likely be in the Head or the Block right now ?

I think that in my '93 the oil return hole in the Gasket was about the same
size as the hole in the block and head.

I will check that later.

Thanks for the information !

DoctorBill

DOCTORBILL · #12 02-06-2010, 10:06 PM

The Head Shop should lap in the SS Valves - I will make sure they do.

The Head Gasket I used 3 years ago - I THINK - was FelPro.
The Head Shop sold me a "set" for about half the store price.

I'd have to go back thru my old, old Thread on the rebuild to find which brand
Head Gasket they sold me....I tried to note down everything.

WHY are you not supposed to use a Gasket Compound - like maybe Permatex
Copper Spray-A Gasket on the Head Gasket ?

I don't understand that.....

If I remember right, I had the timing at what you recommend - fairly advanced.

I will go out tomorrow and look at that little check valve.

The Head is sitting on some newspapers in the garage.

Would it likely be in the Head or the Block right now ?

I think that in my '93 the oil return hole in the Gasket was about the same
size as the hole in the block and head.

I will check that later.

Thanks for the information !

DoctorBill

hazor · #13 02-07-2010, 12:00 AM

Hi Doc there are alot of speculative claims here is another permanet fix sealant.

http://www.autobarn.net/blue-devil-e...g-sealant.html

Some have sworn by it...maybe the pro's here can weigh in on it.The folks where you are getting your parts from are very knowledgable...heavy duty.Maybe you should put an performance economy cam in it they have them even better milage...or if i recall they will do yours.They are not expensive at all.

Great thread

DOCTORBILL · #14 02-10-2010, 08:09 PM

I just received the three Stainless Steel Exhaust Valves and eight hardened
Head Bolts from 3Tech Performance in Ontario, Canada.

Tomorrow I will take the Head into the Shop where I had it worked on before
and have these SS Valves put in and the Head worked on (whatever it needs).

DoctorBill

DOCTORBILL · #15 02-11-2010, 07:59 PM

Took the Head and the New Stainless Steel Exhaust Valves to the Head Shop today.

He said that, indeed, the Head Gasket had blown thru on number two cylinder right by
the interface by number three cylinder

It should be ready on Monday (he doesn't observe President's Day !)

Maybe by next Saturday I'll be back tooling around in The Phoenix (II) !

What...me worry ?

DoctorBill

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