Keep Christ in Christmas.

[blazee]

[MagicRat]

Cool video ..... messages like that are both funny and depressing at the same time.

Of course, people who produced that have no idea they they are part of the problem . The biggest current threat to the world, is, of course, certain religious dogmas seek to turn the entire world to their particular religion..... regardless of who gets in the way, be it other religions or the unconverted..... who must die for their lack of faith, if the faithful had their way.

I am not talking about Buddhism or hunduism here. They do not want to conquor the world. Christianity, Islam and to a lesser extent, Judiasm seek to export their faith's power and influence, at the expense of others and at the expense of world peace and human rights. Discussions of Jesus should be kept out of every day life and world events, just as Islam should.

The world would be a much better place if nations like Iran and Saudi Arabia were entirely secular and run for the common good of its citizens, and not to bring glory for Islam. Imo a more Christianized West would only increase the chances for bloody conflict with the rest of the world, not lessen it, as religious dogma would stoke the fires of righteous indignation and anger.

I am also amused at how people believe the world is getting worse, (as that video suggests)...... as if they have never studied history.The world has demonstrably improved over the past 600 years, ever since people started to struggle to get out from under the oppressive boot heel of religious dogma and control.

Secular forces.... technology, science, the removal of religious control from politics and international relations have all improved things tremendously. If religions ran things, we would all still be in the (appropriately-named) Dark Ages.

Finally, obviously, that message is demonstrably fiction. No western secular university would permit a bullying prof for the past 20 years. Most universities are awash in liberal sensitivities and would not permit the bullying / belittling of students like that.

[thegladhatter]

I lived in a pagan country for a total of 12 years. I have visited Korea, The Philippines, and Tiawan. I have lived in Europe. WHereEVER I have lived I have enjoyed the various cultures as they are. I Have NEVER expected special treatment from Shinto, Budhist, Taoists, or any other believers just because I was a Christian. Why is it that in America, a CHRISTIAN country, we must change OUR celebrations to bend to the beliefs of others. Christmas is NOT a festival of lights, a Winter Holiday, or anything else. It is one of the most sacred of Christian celebrations.

Merry Christmas!

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by thegladhatter

. Why is it that in America, a CHRISTIAN country, we must change OUR celebrations to bend to the beliefs of others. Christmas is NOT a festival of lights, a Winter Holiday, or anything else. It is one of the most sacred of Christian celebrations.

Well, I do not consider America to be a christian country. If it were, it would be the Christian version of Iran where worship is enforced, anti-religious statements brutally opposed, and Inquisitions seeking out and executing the heretical. Free speech? It would not exist in a truly Christian nation. This has happened before, in medieval and Renaissance Europe.

America is, largely a secular nation and has sensibly put in limits and controls to keep religion out of its governance, despite the efforts of some to get god in there at every turn.

So, it's reasonable and consistent that the nation keeps Christmas out of public institutions (schools etc). But private celebrations? I do not think anyone wishes to interfere with them.

As for the nature of Christmas..... it is already bent and distorted to be inclusive. Christmas traditions, such as Christmas trees, decorations, Santa Claus, gift exchange, feasts etc have nothing to do with Christ.
But they have lots to do with European Germanic and pagan winter solstice festivals.... which the Christians adopted to make the celebration more palatable to the masses

[thegladhatter]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Well, I do not consider America to be a christian country.

Just because YOU do not consider it a Christian nation does not mean it is not. You, my friend, are wrong. The founding fathers would argue with you on that. Whether it is a Christian nation really is irrelevant in that it IS a Christian holiday! It is Christmas.....not anything else.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by thegladhatter

Just because YOU do not consider it a Christian nation does not mean it is not. You, my friend, are wrong. The founding fathers would argue with you on that. Whether it is a Christian nation really is irrelevant in that it IS a Christian holiday! It is Christmas.....not anything else.

It's a largely secular nation that just happens to be predominantly populated by Christians. Pay some attention to American history, government institutions and the work of the ACLU before telling me I'm wrong.

For example, the First Amendment guarantees freedom of religion, (even if it is no religion at all). Do you think a true Christian nation would provide such freedom? I do not think so!

The Vatican is a better example of a Christian nation..... where the government members also hold religious authority and positions. Go there and take a look. Oh, and while you are there, perhaps you can ask the pope what Christ has to do with pegan celebrations, such as decorating fir trees, gift exchange, the yuletide log (look it up) or Santa Claus.

[mudslinger88]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

For example, the First Amendment guarantees freedom of religion, (even if it is no religion at all). Do you think a true Christian nation would provide such freedom? I do not think so!

Why would a true Christian nation NOT provide religious freedom? I'm not saying it would or wouldn't, but one thing i learned growing up in church was that man is not supposed to judge others based on the religion they chose, the traditions they have, or the color of thier skin. It does happen, yes, but would those who call themselves Christian leaders blatantly ignore thier own teachings? Yeah it could happen, but I'm not completely convinced that it would happen alot. You are not wrong with the rest of your post, MagicRat. But I'm not convinced that a true Christain nation would deny such freedoms.

[GForce957]

Originally Posted by mudslinger88

Why would a true Christian nation NOT provide religious freedom? I'm not saying it would or wouldn't, but one thing i learned growing up in church was that man is not supposed to judge others based on the religion they chose, the traditions they have, or the color of thier skin. It does happen, yes, but would those who call themselves Christian leaders blatantly ignore thier own teachings? Yeah it could happen, but I'm not completely convinced that it would happen alot. You are not wrong with the rest of your post, MagicRat. But I'm not convinced that a true Christain nation would deny such freedoms.

See the Spanish Inquisition. Muslims and Jews were forced to either convert to Christianity or be expelled from the country

[mudslinger88]

Originally Posted by GForce957

See the Spanish Inquisition. Muslims and Jews were forced to either convert to Christianity or be expelled from the country

That was the Catholic church who did that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition Yes, the Catholics are often considered Christians. But I was referring to Protestants or 'Baptized Christians'. That was my mistake for not specifying this, and I appolgize. Protestantism is referred to as "one of the three major divisions within Christianity, together with the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism. "The Spanish Inquisition was an ecclesiastical tribunal started in 1478 by Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition These Catholic Monarchs were a part of the Spanish Monarchy, not the Protestant or 'Baptized Christians.' The Spanish Inqusition had jurisdiction over Baptized Christians. So, my point in all of this is that the Christianity in which I was referring, Protestants or 'Baptized Christians', was not the oppressing religion in the Spanish Inquisition.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by mudslinger88

Why would a true Christian nation NOT provide religious freedom? I'm not saying it would or wouldn't, but one thing i learned growing up in church was that man is not supposed to judge others based on the religion they chose, the traditions they have, or the color of thier skin. It does happen, yes, but would those who call themselves Christian leaders blatantly ignore thier own teachings? Yeah it could happen, but I'm not completely convinced that it would happen alot. You are not wrong with the rest of your post, MagicRat. But I'm not convinced that a true Christain nation would deny such freedoms.

Part of my point was that of a true christian nation operating on-par with a true Muslim nation, where the religion is the state, like Saudi Arabia or (to a lesser extent) Iran.
The true christian nation does not exist in the world today, because all nations which are majority Christian have secular political and legal traditions.
But in past centuries, there have been plenty of examples of religious persecution, where one Christian sect battles another in the name of god, in a thoroughly unchristian manner.

[mudslinger88]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Part of my point was that of a true christian nation operating on-par with a true Muslim nation, where the religion is the state, like Saudi Arabia or (to a lesser extent) Iran.
The true christian nation does not exist in the world today, because all nations which are majority Christian have secular political and legal traditions.
But in past centuries, there have been plenty of examples of religious persecution, where one Christian sect battles another in the name of god, in a thoroughly unchristian manner.

I can't completely disagree with that, but I would prefer to see some references where Protestants or Baptized Christians were the oppressing party, forcing other religious parties to convert. You are correct that there is no true Christian nation. If there was, then the Protestants would be guilty of oppression. However, I believe that a true Christian nation would not impose it's religion on everybody in the nation. So it would then be considered to NOT be a true Christian nation. It's a cycle that can't be stopped. I may be wrong by the standards of others, but that is how I feel about it.

And with the Christmas holidays bringing in all the decorations and traditions, I don't think it's wrong. It's a way to celebrate the best birthday ever. But I do feel that it has been taken a bit to far as it does take away from the true meaning of Christmas. The true meaning is to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, as I'm sure most are aware of. Just read Luke 2:1-14. It will tell the Christmas story. And while you are reading that, go ahead and read the whole book of Luke. Anyhow, what I believe it has been turned into is a time to buy expensive gifts for everybody and throw the birth of our Savior to the side. I believe the whole idea of gifts was to remeber the gifts that the three Wise Men brought to Jesus at His birth.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by mudslinger88

I can't completely disagree with that, but I would prefer to see some references where Protestants or Baptized Christians were the oppressing party, forcing other religious parties to convert.

Well, the Protestant Reformation and the English Reformation come to mind.

But, these were not strictly theological struggles. The church and religions were closely tied to the complex political and social events and issues at the time. The religious disputes were, imo a part of greater struggles. Also, religion was used as a tool for the rulers to manipulate their followers to obey their will.

Of course, one sees much the same thing in Islam today.

Originally Posted by mudslinger88

You are correct that there is no true Christian nation. If there was, then the Protestants would be guilty of oppression. However, I believe that a true Christian nation would not impose it's religion on everybody in the nation. So it would then be considered to NOT be a true Christian nation. .

I would like to think so. But many members of my family live in a couple of South American nations, which are virtually entirely Catholic. The degree of control that the Church still wields there is breathtaking. My relatives faced considerable hostility to their Protestantism, whenever the subject came up. They have decided to raise their kids as Catholic rather than face the wrath of the locals.

Originally Posted by mudslinger88

And with the Christmas holidays bringing in all the decorations and traditions, I don't think it's wrong. It's a way to celebrate the best birthday ever. But I do feel that it has been taken a bit to far as it does take away from the true meaning of Christmas. The true meaning is to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, as I'm sure most are aware of. Just read Luke 2:1-14. It will tell the Christmas story. And while you are reading that, go ahead and read the whole book of Luke. Anyhow, what I believe it has been turned into is a time to buy expensive gifts for everybody and throw the birth of our Savior to the side. I believe the whole idea of gifts was to remeber the gifts that the three Wise Men brought to Jesus at His birth.

The pagan trappings of Christmas are not wrong, imo. They are a way for non-believers to enjoy Christmas and ease them into this tradition.

For example, I have two Russian friends who grew up in Soviet Russia. They had no exposure to any religion when they were young, so they are 100% atheist. When they moved to my city a few years ago, they refused to celebrate anything related to Christmas, because of their distaste for religion.

However, I explained the pagan winter festival aspects of Christmas, which Christians have adopted.
Now, they celebrate the pagan aspects.... the decorating, the trees, the gifts, the feasting etc. Sure, it's not quite Christmas, but it's a lot more enjoyable and better example of" goodwill to all" than doing nothing at all.

[HotZ28]

The Obamas were planning a "non-religious Christmas" and intended not to put the traditional White House créche scene on display. What else would you expect from this adminstration? I would imagine if Allah were included as part of the nativity scene, it would be more acceptable to them! I suppose next year will provide a more "inclusive" scene.

White House Social Secretary Desirée Rogers reportabley told a meeting of former secretaries that the Obamas did not intend to put the manger scene on display - a suggestion that was greeted by an "audible gasp" from her audience. The White House confirmed that there had been discussion regarding whether to make Christmas more "inclusive."



Despite such discussions, the White House eventually bowed to tradition, reports the NY Times; the creche scene is now on display.

In an email to Fox News' Todd Starnes regarding the issue, the First Lady's office quoted a speech given by President Obama at the lighting of the National Christmas Tree. The President's remarks emphasized that Christmas has a lesson for all, not merely Christians, and that it represents, "a tradition that we celebrate as a country - a tradition that has come to represent more than any one holiday or religion."

Catholic League President Bill Donohue said that it should be no surprise that President Obama and "his wife would like to neuter Christmas in the White House."

He continued: "That's their natural step - to ban the public display of Christian symbols. Have any doubts? Last April, Georgetown University was ordered to put a drape over the name of Jesus as a condition of the president speaking there."

"It is the business of the public to hold [the Obamas] accountable for the way they celebrate Christmas in the White House. We know one thing for sure: no other administration ever entertained internal discussions on whether to display a nativity scene in the White House."

[fredjacksonsan]

No one would condone calling the Menorah a "Holiday Menorah". It's for Hanukkah.

By the same token, we should be calling them "Christmas trees", not "holiday trees".


Celebrate the season the way you would like to, and respect the fact that others might celebrate differently than you.


I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas.

[karmacae]

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

No one would condone calling the Menorah a "Holiday Menorah". It's for Hanukkah.

By the same token, we should be calling them "Christmas trees", not "holiday trees".


Celebrate the season the way you would like to, and respect the fact that others might celebrate differently than you.


I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas.

No thanks, I'll pass...