3 codes on my wifes 96 windstar (301,161,102)

[cswilson1976]

Having some issues with my wifes 96 windstar, it started running bad about a week ago, and throwing 3 codes, P0301, P0102 and P0161.

I cleaned the MAF sensor with non residue electrical contact cleaner, that got ride of the 102 error, but Im still getting the 301 and 161.

So far to trouble shoot the 301 I have cleaned out the EGR ports(easier to get to then the spark plug ), inspected the wire to cyl 1 as best as I could, and looked at the coil pack for any noticable damage etc. I also noticed there was some oil in the air intake acoridan thingy too


The symptoms started with a really rainy day. heavy rain and air was really damp. when the engine is under a good load(ie up a hill, or driving over 60km/h it starts bucking and the engine starts to bog down a fair bit.) and throws the p0301 then the p0161

a few months ago I installed a new fuel filter, new plugs(bosh double plat), new wires(premium brand), air filter

[cswilson1976]

well it seems it was the coil pack, it measured OK, and from the top looked OK, but the bottom was crap!! at least 3 very visible cracks, worse one was right below the coil for cyl 1.

Replaced it and all works well. no more codes. not to get the darn ABS light to go out and also deal with the recall letter I got on friday

[wiswind]

It is good that you solved the problem for not too may $$$
If you have continued problems.......some have reported problems with Bosch multipronged plugs.
The best plugs would be double platinumn (platinumn on BOTH the center electrode and the ground tab).
The last I knew, the double platinumn plug was only availabe under the Motorcraft and Autolite brand names.

I have also found that my '96 is prone to build up some sort of sludge inside the "end cap" that is over the spray end of the fuel injectors.
Otherwise, the injectors are VERY reliable.
The ONLY fuel additive that has worked for me on this is Berryman's B-12 Chemtool.
I tried many different cleaners....and my mechanic handed me a can of the Berryman's......and it did the trick.
I add it to a tank of fuel 3-4 times a year....and I DO notice a difference.
Good news is, it is one of the less expensive fuel cleaner additives......and it WORKS in my particular application.
The deposit....as explained to me is from a combination of the carbon in the EGR from the exhaust.....and the oil vapor from the PCV system.

That is the other common cause for a P0301 and/or P0304 Clogged EGR ports in the lower intake manifold.
That requires removal of the upper intake manifold to get to the ports....and then just a poker to clean the ports out....with a shop vac to suck up the junk as you loosten it.
There is no fuel add or spray into the intake that will clean the EGR ports.
If you get carried away and decide to clean the IMRC "butterflies" or plates......avoid getting anything on down into the intake.....
If you spray things down and let it drain down into the intake.....it will be sitting there at the intake valves....ready to be drawn into the motor when you go to start it up.

[cswilson1976]

Well now the trouble light is back on!!!!

I will have to read the codes when I get home

[cswilson1976]

the new codes are p0171/p0174/p0161

[wiswind]

That P0161 is a downstream oxygen sensor heater circuit malfunction...for bank 2...which is the FRONT bank....and it seems to be staying with you.
The other codes are lean on both banks.....usually a vaccum leak.
I would give the vaccum lines a good looking at....there are a lot of them connecting to the back side of the upper intake manifold.
Check the flexible parts of the PCV line.....mine got soft and cracked at the elbow on the top of the upper intake manifold.....and the other flexible parts were starting to collapse.
For the elbow.....I bought a emissions hose with 2 elbows in the "help" parts that they carry at AutoZone and other auto part stores.....a couple snips and I had a perfect fit.
The other thing that has given me misfire codes and lean codes is the dirty fuel injectors that I mention in my first post.......which the Berrymans clears up for me.

As for that downstream oxygen sensor.....the one that mounts into the rear of the body of the rear-most catalytic converter (which is bank 1).....WATCH OUT for that one.....
When I was changing my catalytic converter assembly......that one broke right out of the thin metal of the body of the catalytic converter......just a gentle turning pressure and the threaded bung came right out....and that would not be a good thing.
In my case.....I was already replacing the "Y" pipe with the converters.....but if I wasn't.....I would have been faced with having to do that.
This is a link to a picture that shows the sensor that I am talking about....
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1291...11220610RKaAZl
That sensor is bank 1.......the front bank of cylinders being bank 2.
Here is a link that shows the locations of all 4 oxygen sensor on the "Y" pipe assembly which is removed from the vehicle....this is on my '96 3.8L
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1291...11220610mzvEni

The reason that I have babbled about the bank 1 downstream sensor......I would normally tell you to switch the actual sensors from side to side.....but if you have the same setup as I do.....with the one mounted into the converter body.....I am concerned that you might end up with the same thing that I did.......breaking the threaded ring out of the converter body.....and the metal is too thin for most folks to weld it back.....and it took very little turning force to break it out....as I was being very careful to apply ONLY turning force to it.
Last I checked.....the OEM "Y" pipe assembly listed for about $1600....and the cheapest that I could located it was $1200, which is why I used the Walker "Direct Fit" unit that you see in the 2nd picture....which was $321 at the time.
SO.....you might try checking the connector for the downstream oxygen sensor for bank 2....which is mounted in the pipe.
Otherwise.....you could buy a new one and install it (which would be cheaper than a "Y" pipe) unless you want to risk switching them from side to side and hope that you are more lucky than I was.......if the problem moves to bank 1....then you know that the sensor is the problem......if the problem stays with P0161....you know that the problem is the circuit....wires......not the sensor.

HOWEVER, the downstream oxygen sensors are not used by the PCM for control of the motor......they only monitor the catalytic converter to make sure it is working.
So.....this would not be the cause of the other problems.....but would keep you from passing the emissions testing that many states have.

[cswilson1976]

Ok, have checked lots of stuff now...

Sill getting only code 301. has no power and almost dies when going up hills and runs really rough.

there was a major air leak that I fixed that caused the P0171/P0174 codes, seems in my poking around i knocked the rubber grommet out of the bottom of the MAF so there was a 1"x2" air hole

One of my co-workers suggested resetting the computer by disconnecting the BAT for 1/2 an hour. Don't know if that would do anything.

[cswilson1976]

Ok,

took the upper intake off, made sure all the surfaces were clean.(they were kinda oily where the gaskets sit and the gaskets themselves were quite coated in oil.

Every thing put back together, runs a fair bit better, also noticed that my IMRC vacuum solenoid is shot again(3RD TIME) so this time I wired the butterflies closed and may replace it in the spring.

Van still gets misfires around 80 km/h cant go faster, also on climbing hills cant do more then 60 or it does the same thing. Im thinking now it has to do with fuel in some way... any ideas?

[wiswind]

I would try getting the double platinumn plugs in the AutoLite or Motorcraft brand name.
I know that it is covering ground that you already covered.....but it won't cost alot....and they are the correct plugs for the windstar application.
I have read about similar problems to what you are having with the multi-prong Bosch plugs on the windstar.

The other things that come to mind are spark plug wires and fuel filter.....which you already replaced......so maybe a plug wire got damaged?......but, again.....I would try the spark plugs first.

Another possibility is that the fuel pump is getting weak......but let's save that for after the spark plugs......as that is more $$$ and labor (dropping the fuel tank for access).

[cswilson1976]

so far this morning

I swaped out the plugs with Champion Double plat, that are OEM equivlent... no one had any stock on the plugs you mentioned.

I also swaped the #1 wire with the original one that I removed a few months ago. it also didnt make a diffrence

[cswilson1976]

Just for a hoot, I after doing some reading on the parts of the fuel supply system on the windstar I tried disconnecting the vacuum line from the fuel pressure regulator, sticking a marret connector and electrical tape over the vacuum hose opening, and took the van for a spin. with it disconnected it works GREAT, no codes at all, no problems going up hills, going 80km/h or going 80km/h up a hill.

Reconected the vaccum hose and the problens came back.

Now the question is what is on the other end of the hose, (there is a vacuum on the hose when the engine is running), and when the engine is reved up there is no noticable diffrence on the level of vacuum that i can tell(with out the aid of a vac tester)

Thanks

[wiswind]

That hose, as I recall connects directly to the vaccum from the intake.
When the motor is running, there is vaccum on that line.
The fuel pressure regulator works with MAXIMUM fuel pressure to the fuel rail with NO vaccum (like it is now, with the vaccum line disconnected), more vaccum, less fuel pressure.

Vaccum is at the maximum at idle.......and at the minimum under the most engine load......so the fuel pressure will be maximum under the hardest engine load.

You may have one of 2 problems......
Too low of fuel pressure.......so application of vaccum to the fuel pressure regulator further reduces the fuel pressure.
OR.....the fuel pressure regulator is defective.......not common, but I guess it could happen.

The next 2 suggestions are not very likely....as it should cause more trouble at idle.....more vaccum.....more problem.....lower RPM....more noticable......

Is there any sign that the fuel pressure regulator is leaking fuel into the vaccum line......there should be NO fuel pass through the vaccum line.

Another thing.....the vaccum line should fit snug on the fuel pressure regulator......not loose, letting air leak into the vaccum line at the connection.

At this point.....it is really looking like the problem is low fuel pressure.....with the fuel pump being the most likely (but also the most expensive).
With the vaccum line to the fuel pressure regulator disconnected and plugged......do you still have problems going faster than you mentioned...and issues going up hills?.......I am hoping for the fuel pressure regulator vs fuel pump, because of cost.........although it is not a common failure.....I can happen.

The thing about the fuel pressure on the windstar, there is NO measurement of fuel pressure or fuel flow....
What this means is that the PCM does not know what the fuel pressure or flow is......so you will not get any indication that directly tells you that there is any problem with either......you will only get symptoms of the problem.

There is a fuel pressure test point on the front fuel rail.....in the middle that one can check the fuel pressure and see if it is at the correct value.
You know you have some fuel pressure......as indicated by the fact that the motor starts and runs, but you can still be low.

If you have a local mechanic that you trust, you could call and see if you can stop in and have them check the fuel pressure and see if it is within specifications.
If it is not.....and since you have a new fuel filter.....it leads us to the fuel pump needing replaced.

[cswilson1976]

Originally Posted by wiswind

Is there any sign that the fuel pressure regulator is leaking fuel into the vaccum line......there should be NO fuel pass through the vaccum line.

Nope, dont see anything leaking at all

Originally Posted by wiswind

Another thing.....the vaccum line should fit snug on the fuel pressure regulator......not loose, letting air leak into the vaccum line at the connection.

seems to be snug

Originally Posted by wiswind

At this point.....it is really looking like the problem is low fuel pressure.....with the fuel pump being the most likely (but also the most expensive).
With the vaccum line to the fuel pressure regulator disconnected and plugged......do you still have problems going faster than you mentioned...and issues going up hills?.......I am hoping for the fuel pressure regulator vs fuel pump, because of cost.........although it is not a common failure.....I can happen.

With it disconnected had no problems going up hill/fast or uphill fast

going to call around and see if I know anyone with a fuel pressure tester.

testing the fuel pressure, should it stay the same idol vs load or should it increase?

[cswilson1976]

Could a bad battery cause issues with the fuel pump. Just went to start it after geting home and the bat is dead, only measures 9.8 volt across the terminals

[tomj76]

>testing the fuel pressure, should it stay the same idol vs load or should it increase?

The regulator's job is to keep constant pressure across the fuel injectors, so that flow is constant regardless of load. Since there is less vacuum when the throttle is open, (i.e. higher absolute pressure), the regulator will increase the fuel pressure if the throttle is opened. You can get away with just a fuel pressure gauge, but with a vacuum gauge as well you can check that the pressure difference is constant.

If you have a bad battery, it can draw more current from the alternator. That could cause a generally low voltage for other systems, such as the fuel pump. If the fuel pump is working on less power, then it might not put out the flow and/or pressure it would at full voltage.

First, I would change the battery (since it needs to be done anyway). If that cures the misfire, then you have your answer. If not, then check the fuel pressure.

If have not seen any mention of EGR ports. I've had to clean mine at several differnet times to cure a misfire.