Jacking up car when changing fluid

[overdoseland]

Hi there,

Just got a quick rookie question if anyone can answer. Do you need to jack the car up and put it on 4 stands or can you just jack the front up on 2 stands when changing oil and or tranny fluid? Doesn't the car have to be level when changing fluids? This is for 2001 honda accord 4cyc automatic. Thanks.

[somick]

For oil, jacking does work since on my Hondas the drain plug is kind of in the rear of the oil pan.

For transmission, even though I can reach the drain plug without jacking up the car, I cannot fit anything in there to collect the fluid.

You may try a simple trick: jack up the car, and drain the fluid. When the fluid stops flowing lower your vehicle. You will see the fluid start draining again.

I hope this helps,

Sam

[overdoseland]

Originally Posted by somick

For oil, jacking does work since on my Hondas the drain plug is kind of in the rear of the oil pan.

For transmission, even though I can reach the drain plug without jacking up the car, I cannot fit anything in there to collect the fluid.

You may try a simple trick: jack up the car, and drain the fluid. When the fluid stops flowing lower your vehicle. You will see the fluid start draining again.

I hope this helps,

Sam

I see but when you lower your car, you mentioned that you can't fit anything under the drain plug to catch the fluid. I was thinking maybe jack the front up and put it on stands then drain till no more fluid comes out and then use the jack ,with the stands still on the front, to jack the rear up until the car is level and drain the rest of the fluid. You think that will work? I read some other forums that some people just jack the front up to change trans fluid but some say 4 jacks so I'm kind of wondering.

[somick]

I have read horror stories about failing transmission after somebody tried to drain more than two quarts. I do not know why and what happened. It might created air pockets or something! Honda recommends drain and fill transmission fluid 3 times, claiming that this way you will replace 100% of the fluid. That what I would do.

Of course placing your car on stands will make your life much easier. But I would keep it level.

Sam

[jwokmuba2]

Originally Posted by somick

I have read horror stories about failing transmission after somebody tried to drain more than two quarts. I do not know why and what happened. It might created air pockets or something! Honda recommends drain and fill transmission fluid 3 times, claiming that this way you will replace 100% of the fluid. That what I would do.

Of course placing your car on stands will make your life much easier. But I would keep it level.

Sam

I agree, trying to drain all the tranny fluid or oil might have bad results, i would just get what i could out and then fill it back up, and when u drain any fluid the plug is placed at the lower side if the pan, so ur goin to get most of your fluid out out

[overdoseland]

Originally Posted by somick

I have read horror stories about failing transmission after somebody tried to drain more than two quarts. I do not know why and what happened. It might created air pockets or something! Honda recommends drain and fill transmission fluid 3 times, claiming that this way you will replace 100% of the fluid. That what I would do.

Of course placing your car on stands will make your life much easier. But I would keep it level.

Sam

I understand but I think you guys missed the point here. My concern is if I jack only the front up, will it drain properly because the car is not level. I want to make sure enough old fluid drains out. So my idea was to jack the front up,drain until it stops, then jack up the rear so the car is level and see if any more fluid comes out. I read the Honda recs on draining and filling 3 times which I plan on doing. Thanks again for the info.

[jwokmuba2]

well since ur so worried about getting all the fluid out, just take it to a shop and have them do it, since they have lifts ur car will be level for sure and u wont have to worry about it, or u could park ur car on a slightly angled driveway and do ur fluid change there, otherwise i wouldnt worry about it,

[overdoseland]

Originally Posted by jwokmuba2

well since ur so worried about getting all the fluid out, just take it to a shop and have them do it, since they have lifts ur car will be level for sure and u wont have to worry about it, or u could park ur car on a slightly angled driveway and do ur fluid change there, otherwise i wouldnt worry about it,

I don't plan on taking it to a shop b/c I just bought all the materials to do the oil and filter change. Anyway I'm just gonna go ahead and do the change with 2 jacks and jack the rear up to level it when I change the tranny fluid.

[jeffcoslacker]

Originally Posted by somick

I have read horror stories about failing transmission after somebody tried to drain more than two quarts. I do not know why and what happened.

I have experienced this personally and with customer vehicles enough to be a die hard believer in this.

My best guess as to why is twofold:

One, tranny service is probably the most neglected fluid change on the vehicle, aside from brake fluid exchanges. Probably 85% of drivers never even contemplate a fluid and filter change on a tranny until it starts acting weird.

Problem is, by that time it's generally too late, the damage is done, and the poor fluid condition is symptomatic of the problem at this point, rather than the cause. Allowing the fluid to wear out may have caused hard part damage, but now the incread friction and heat in hard parts is incinerating the fluid.

Which brings me to the second part:

Since it's still operating with diminished capacity, a complete fluid exchange totally restores the shear strength and viscosity of the fluid, which increases operating pressures and loading on fluid bath friction parts, like wet clutch packs...the increased shear strength literally rips facing off the discs, and increased pressures blow heat fatigued seals...and voila! The tranny grenades and the owner blames the fluid exchange, when long-term neglect was the true cause....the fluid exchange merely hastened the process...

So it is for that reason I would NEVER do a full exchange on a vehicle that has gone way beyond service interval for a change, or is exhibiting performance problems. I would in NO way consider flushing with solvent cleaners...the built-up resins inside the tranny may be the only thing holding it together.

A partial exchange may help build just enough viscosity to improve hot performance (most tranny issues get worse the farther you drive) and replenish some of the anit-friction additives and heat exchanging qualites of the fluid without shocking the hard parts suddenly with brand new fluid...

This theory is built on 25 years of personal experience and many in-depth talks with knowlegeable transmission guys...it's the best explaination I can come up with...

Tranny fluid is the hardest working fluid in the vehicle...it's a hydraulic fluid, lubricant, cleaner and heat exchanger...shame people don't pay more attention to it. With regular changes, most trannies should go 250,000 miles or more without problems...

We serviced a fleet of Ford escort wagons for years...they sold them off after they passed 200,000 miles...we did regular filter and partial fluid changes every 50,000 miles, we NEVER had a tranny issue on any of them...

[jwokmuba2]

Originally Posted by jeffcoslacker

I have experienced this personally and with customer vehicles enough to be a die hard believer in this.

My best guess as to why is twofold:

One, tranny service is probably the most neglected fluid change on the vehicle, aside from brake fluid exchanges. Probably 85% of drivers never even contemplate a fluid and filter change on a tranny until it starts acting weird.

Problem is, by that time it's generally too late, the damage is done, and the poor fluid condition is symptomatic of the problem at this point, rather than the cause. Allowing the fluid to wear out may have caused hard part damage, but now the incread friction and heat in hard parts is incinerating the fluid.

Which brings me to the second part:

Since it's still operating with diminished capacity, a complete fluid exchange totally restores the shear strength and viscosity of the fluid, which increases operating pressures and loading on fluid bath friction parts, like wet clutch packs...the increased shear strength literally rips facing off the discs, and increased pressures blow heat fatigued seals...and voila! The tranny grenades and the owner blames the fluid exchange, when long-term neglect was the true cause....the fluid exchange merely hastened the process...

So it is for that reason I would NEVER do a full exchange on a vehicle that has gone way beyond service interval for a change, or is exhibiting performance problems. I would in NO way consider flushing with solvent cleaners...the built-up resins inside the tranny may be the only thing holding it together.

A partial exchange may help build just enough viscosity to improve hot performance (most tranny issues get worse the farther you drive) and replenish some of the anit-friction additives and heat exchanging qualites of the fluid without shocking the hard parts suddenly with brand new fluid...

This theory is built on 25 years of personal experience and many in-depth talks with knowlegeable transmission guys...it's the best explaination I can come up with...

Tranny fluid is the hardest working fluid in the vehicle...it's a hydraulic fluid, lubricant, cleaner and heat exchanger...shame people don't pay more attention to it. With regular changes, most trannies should go 250,000 miles or more without problems...

We serviced a fleet of Ford escort wagons for years...they sold them off after they passed 200,000 miles...we did regular filter and partial fluid changes every 50,000 miles, we NEVER had a tranny issue on any of them...

well that about sums up what i was trying to say, so thanks

[overdoseland]

Originally Posted by jeffcoslacker

I have experienced this personally and with customer vehicles enough to be a die hard believer in this.

My best guess as to why is twofold:

One, tranny service is probably the most neglected fluid change on the vehicle, aside from brake fluid exchanges. Probably 85% of drivers never even contemplate a fluid and filter change on a tranny until it starts acting weird.

Problem is, by that time it's generally too late, the damage is done, and the poor fluid condition is symptomatic of the problem at this point, rather than the cause. Allowing the fluid to wear out may have caused hard part damage, but now the incread friction and heat in hard parts is incinerating the fluid.

Which brings me to the second part:

Since it's still operating with diminished capacity, a complete fluid exchange totally restores the shear strength and viscosity of the fluid, which increases operating pressures and loading on fluid bath friction parts, like wet clutch packs...the increased shear strength literally rips facing off the discs, and increased pressures blow heat fatigued seals...and voila! The tranny grenades and the owner blames the fluid exchange, when long-term neglect was the true cause....the fluid exchange merely hastened the process...

So it is for that reason I would NEVER do a full exchange on a vehicle that has gone way beyond service interval for a change, or is exhibiting performance problems. I would in NO way consider flushing with solvent cleaners...the built-up resins inside the tranny may be the only thing holding it together.

A partial exchange may help build just enough viscosity to improve hot performance (most tranny issues get worse the farther you drive) and replenish some of the anit-friction additives and heat exchanging qualites of the fluid without shocking the hard parts suddenly with brand new fluid...

This theory is built on 25 years of personal experience and many in-depth talks with knowlegeable transmission guys...it's the best explaination I can come up with...

Tranny fluid is the hardest working fluid in the vehicle...it's a hydraulic fluid, lubricant, cleaner and heat exchanger...shame people don't pay more attention to it. With regular changes, most trannies should go 250,000 miles or more without problems...

We serviced a fleet of Ford escort wagons for years...they sold them off after they passed 200,000 miles...we did regular filter and partial fluid changes every 50,000 miles, we NEVER had a tranny issue on any of them...

WoW I was merely asking if I should use 4 jacks instead of 2 to jack the car up to do the fluid changes. FWIW thanks for the detailed explanation on the tranny fluid drain. Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate it. I was gonna do the drain 3x that Honda recommends but after reading your post I'll just drain once and fill with new fluid.

The tranny is ok right now. Every now and then I get a slight delay in acceleration when I go and slow down,not to a complete stop,and then go again. This tranny was put in a few years ago b/c I blew my first one from trying to rock myself out of deep snow in an alley. Stupid me, puttin it in drive then rev, back and forth.

I don't know how used this tranny that I have now is. It seems to run ok except for that slight intermittent delay. I took it into service at a Honda a couple times and a friend of mine that works there said that its not the right model tranny that was in my car. My cars a 2001 Honda accord 2.3 4cyc automatic and he said the tranny is from another model or year, I can't remember. It's one thats sort of compatible so to speak. I don't really know too much about which model can be used with which. Anyways sorry for getting off topic here but thanks again for the info.

[jeffcoslacker]

Failure to downshift and saggy acceleration is pretty common on computer controlled trannies in the specific situation you described...it's a common complaint. I doubt there's anything seriously wrong with it. They just get kind of confused, trying to find the correct gear for what you are asking it to do...and if I understand your description, you get in a situation where if you give it normal amounts of throttle, it feels like it's lugging in too high gear, push it harder and it downshifts and takes off like it was fired out of a cannon, kind of inappropriate explosive acceleration? That's the common issue, and it ogenerally only occurs in that precise situation you describe, where you are coasting down to a stop but suddenly ask for acceleration...

This happens commonly on PCM controlled trannies when they are right at the threshold of a downshift on decel, and the driver suddenly asks for power...the computer gets momentarily flummoxed trying to figure out the best strategy for what's occuring, and it's too late by the time it decides. It's already above the road speed for the downshift it was about to do, but too slow for the gear it's currently in for good acceleration. They will usually select the strategy that produces the least shift shock (which most drivers find more irritating than saggy acceleration under certain situations), which is to just stay in the higher gear and lug the engine, unless you insist on more power and trounce it...

I think yours is too new to still use a throttle detent cable to assist in downshift selection under throttle load...but if it does have one, adjustment will help with this problem....

[overdoseland]

Originally Posted by jeffcoslacker

Failure to downshift and saggy acceleration is pretty common on computer controlled trannies in the specific situation you described...it's a common complaint. I doubt there's anything seriously wrong with it. They just get kind of confused, trying to find the correct gear for what you are asking it to do...and if I understand your description, you get in a situation where if you give it normal amounts of throttle, it feels like it's lugging in too high gear, push it harder and it downshifts and takes off like it was fired out of a cannon, kind of inappropriate explosive acceleration? That's the common issue, and it ogenerally only occurs in that precise situation you describe, where you are coasting down to a stop but suddenly ask for acceleration...

This happens commonly on PCM controlled trannies when they are right at the threshold of a downshift on decel, and the driver suddenly asks for power...the computer gets momentarily flummoxed trying to figure out the best strategy for what's occuring, and it's too late by the time it decides. It's already above the road speed for the downshift it was about to do, but too slow for the gear it's currently in for good acceleration. They will usually select the strategy that produces the least shift shock (which most drivers find more irritating than saggy acceleration under certain situations), which is to just stay in the higher gear and lug the engine, unless you insist on more power and trounce it...

I think yours is too new to still use a throttle detent cable to assist in downshift selection under throttle load...but if it does have one, adjustment will help with this problem....

Your description isn't quite what happens to the car when it lags. My situation happens when I use normal throttle. I don't hammer it. It almost feels like a slipping tranny, which I hope it isn't. When I slow down, say coming close to a car in front of me and then I change lane to speed up, thats when the delay happens. It kinda waits a split second before catching the gear and then it's fine. However, I do notice sometimes its lugging in too high a gear when I hit the throttle (not hard though).

[overdoseland]

Originally Posted by jeffcoslacker

Failure to downshift and saggy acceleration is pretty common on computer controlled trannies in the specific situation you described...it's a common complaint. I doubt there's anything seriously wrong with it. They just get kind of confused, trying to find the correct gear for what you are asking it to do...and if I understand your description, you get in a situation where if you give it normal amounts of throttle, it feels like it's lugging in too high gear, push it harder and it downshifts and takes off like it was fired out of a cannon, kind of inappropriate explosive acceleration? That's the common issue, and it ogenerally only occurs in that precise situation you describe, where you are coasting down to a stop but suddenly ask for acceleration...

This happens commonly on PCM controlled trannies when they are right at the threshold of a downshift on decel, and the driver suddenly asks for power...the computer gets momentarily flummoxed trying to figure out the best strategy for what's occuring, and it's too late by the time it decides. It's already above the road speed for the downshift it was about to do, but too slow for the gear it's currently in for good acceleration. They will usually select the strategy that produces the least shift shock (which most drivers find more irritating than saggy acceleration under certain situations), which is to just stay in the higher gear and lug the engine, unless you insist on more power and trounce it...

I think yours is too new to still use a throttle detent cable to assist in downshift selection under throttle load...but if it does have one, adjustment will help with this problem....

Your description is not what actually happens when I get the delayed response. My situation happens like this: I'm driving and slow down when getting close to the car in front, switch lanes and accelerate, thats when I notice the delay. It almost feels like a slip, which I hope it's not. So when I give it normal throttle theres a split second delay before it catches a gear then it's fine. It only happens when slowing down and going again quickly.

As for the detent cable, I don't know what that is and I'm not sure if there's one on my car. Thanks again for the info.

[jeffcoslacker]

So it feels like it falls out of gear momentarily?

Do the engine rpm's flare when it happens if you hold the throttle steady?