92 Lesabre Possible Ground Issue?

[G3mInI]

For the last 3 years I have been having intermittent electrical issues with the following symptoms.

Power Windows. On occasion either the right rear or left rear power window will not do anything. Repeated flicking of the switches sometimes will get them to work, and once they work they work for a while (days). But will suddenly go dead, and the odd thing is when one window is dead, the other works and vice versa. Never will it be both windows at the same time! This only happens to the rear power windows and has never happened to the front ones.

Driver's Power Seat. On occasional pressing the buttons to adjust will not do anything. When it is not working you can hear a clicking noise coming from the front passenger kick panel (sounds like a relay clicking). The only fix seems to be shutting the vehicle off and then restarting it. However this does not always work.

Power locks. The button to lock/unlock all doors will occasionally do nothing at all. However as stated above with the power seat, when it won't work, you can hear a relay making a clicking noise from the front passenger kick panel.

Radio. Sometimes our radio signal will go all static. Pressing any of the power window buttons suddenly will make the station come in crystal clear but won't last long and it will go back to static. Very odd. This problem seems to be occurring more and more frequently. No power antennae. However the fixed antennae on the back of the vehicle is loose and I cannot seem to tighten it. And yes I am well withing range of the radio station broadcast signal.

Turn signals. They work however they are very very slow. Sometimes they seem to flash at normal speed but for the most part they flash very slowly. Approximately 5 seconds in between flashes versus say 2 seconds. The flash will get slower as you slow down to make your corner and speed up a bit as you accelerate.

Shocking. Every time we exit the car, upon touching the door to close it you will get a shock. The driver side door seems to produce the greatest shock.

I have gone through 3 alternators in 3 years. Two fuel pumps in two years. Two batteries in 3 years. One starter in 3 years.

I have cleaned the battery connections. Replaced wire from battery to alternator. I also read on here about a ground bus located under the trim on the drivers side door. I found that. It was wrapped in black electrical tape. Upon unraveling all the tape, the ground bus was in pristine condition. Shiny silver on both the male and female ends. Wrapped it back up and replaced the trim.

Does anyone here have any other ideas? To me since so many systems are being affected, my thinking was that there must be a ground problem somewhere. Maybe the control panel on the driver side door? I just don't know.

I have no idea where the engine ground is on my 92 lesabre.

Any help, tips or insight greatly appreciated.

[spinne1]

Originally Posted by G3mInI

For the last 3 years I have been having intermittent electrical issues with the following symptoms.

Power Windows. On occasion either the right rear or left rear power window will not do anything. Repeated flicking of the switches sometimes will get them to work, and once they work they work for a while (days). But will suddenly go dead, and the odd thing is when one window is dead, the other works and vice versa. Never will it be both windows at the same time! This only happens to the rear power windows and has never happened to the front ones.

When this is happening, remove a door panel and test the wires both power and ground. See if the switch is getting and giving power. See if the ground is in continuity with the battery's ground.

Originally Posted by G3mInI

Driver's Power Seat. On occasional pressing the buttons to adjust will not do anything. When it is not working you can hear a clicking noise coming from the front passenger kick panel (sounds like a relay clicking). The only fix seems to be shutting the vehicle off and then restarting it. However this does not always work.

My 92 will occasionally do this but in my case I think my motor is simply dying. Your problem may be a bad ground as you say.

Originally Posted by G3mInI

Power locks. The button to lock/unlock all doors will occasionally do nothing at all. However as stated above with the power seat, when it won't work, you can hear a relay making a clicking noise from the front passenger kick panel.

Get a wiring diagram for your car (either http://www.alldatadiy.com/?gclid=CLy...FRBbagodW3Np2Q or better yet an official GM repair manual.) See what is supposed to happen when you press this lock button. In fact, all affected systems will have their ground wire locations shown and probably share the same wires ultimately. This should give good clues as to where to look.

Originally Posted by G3mInI

Radio. Sometimes our radio signal will go all static. Pressing any of the power window buttons suddenly will make the station come in crystal clear but won't last long and it will go back to static. Very odd. This problem seems to be occurring more and more frequently. No power antennae. However the fixed antennae on the back of the vehicle is loose and I cannot seem to tighten it. And yes I am well withing range of the radio station broadcast signal.

Strange. Pull your radio and see if the antenna wire is plugged in good and tight. As for tightening the antenna, why can't it be tightened? Get another one from a junk yard.

Originally Posted by G3mInI

Turn signals. They work however they are very very slow. Sometimes they seem to flash at normal speed but for the most part they flash very slowly. Approximately 5 seconds in between flashes versus say 2 seconds. The flash will get slower as you slow down to make your corner and speed up a bit as you accelerate.

Either this is tied to your other problems or you need a new flasher. They are cheap but a bit of a pain to replace. It is located in the far left portion of the dash behind and to the left of the trunk release button area. You have to get at it with a long screwdriver and flashlight while lying on your back on the floor (pop it out, replace it, let it hang--no need to try and reinstall it in its metal hanger.)

Originally Posted by G3mInI

Shocking. Every time we exit the car, upon touching the door to close it you will get a shock. The driver side door seems to produce the greatest shock.

Yes, probably a ground issue. (although many cars shock you in this way)

Originally Posted by G3mInI

I have gone through 3 alternators in 3 years. Two fuel pumps in two years. Two batteries in 3 years. One starter in 3 years.

Something is amiss. I especially wonder about the fuel pumps and alternators. Neither should go bad so fast.

Originally Posted by G3mInI

I have cleaned the battery connections. Replaced wire from battery to alternator. I also read on here about a ground bus located under the trim on the drivers side door. I found that. It was wrapped in black electrical tape. Upon unraveling all the tape, the ground bus was in pristine condition. Shiny silver on both the male and female ends. Wrapped it back up and replaced the trim.

There are other ground buses. The wiring diagrams will tell where.

Originally Posted by G3mInI

Does anyone here have any other ideas? To me since so many systems are being affected, my thinking was that there must be a ground problem somewhere. Maybe the control panel on the driver side door? I just don't know.

Take your door panel off and check it. Check continuity on all wires to ground.

I have no idea where the engine ground is on my 92 lesabre.[/quote]Follow the main black wire from your battery to your engine and you'll find it. Make sure it is good and tight. Check the other ground connections under the hood. Look at your fuse box for obvious problems. Look at all wiring under the hood for obvious problems.

Good luck.

[G3mInI]

Thanks for the advice. Just ordered a 92 Lesabre factory manual on ebay motors. Be here in a week or so. Hopefully this will help me in troubleshooting these electrical issues.

Will update if I find anything significant.

[stuzman]

Originally Posted by G3mInI

For the last 3 years I have been having intermittent electrical issues with the following symptoms.

Power Windows. On occasion either the right rear or left rear power window will not do anything. Repeated flicking of the switches sometimes will get them to work, and once they work they work for a while (days). But will suddenly go dead, and the odd thing is when one window is dead, the other works and vice versa. Never will it be both windows at the same time! This only happens to the rear power windows and has never happened to the front ones.

Driver's Power Seat. On occasional pressing the buttons to adjust will not do anything. When it is not working you can hear a clicking noise coming from the front passenger kick panel (sounds like a relay clicking). The only fix seems to be shutting the vehicle off and then restarting it. However this does not always work.

Power locks. The button to lock/unlock all doors will occasionally do nothing at all. However as stated above with the power seat, when it won't work, you can hear a relay making a clicking noise from the front passenger kick panel.

Radio. Sometimes our radio signal will go all static. Pressing any of the power window buttons suddenly will make the station come in crystal clear but won't last long and it will go back to static. Very odd. This problem seems to be occurring more and more frequently. No power antennae. However the fixed antennae on the back of the vehicle is loose and I cannot seem to tighten it. And yes I am well withing range of the radio station broadcast signal.

Turn signals. They work however they are very very slow. Sometimes they seem to flash at normal speed but for the most part they flash very slowly. Approximately 5 seconds in between flashes versus say 2 seconds. The flash will get slower as you slow down to make your corner and speed up a bit as you accelerate.

Shocking. Every time we exit the car, upon touching the door to close it you will get a shock. The driver side door seems to produce the greatest shock.

I have gone through 3 alternators in 3 years. Two fuel pumps in two years. Two batteries in 3 years. One starter in 3 years.

I have cleaned the battery connections. Replaced wire from battery to alternator. I also read on here about a ground bus located under the trim on the drivers side door. I found that. It was wrapped in black electrical tape. Upon unraveling all the tape, the ground bus was in pristine condition. Shiny silver on both the male and female ends. Wrapped it back up and replaced the trim.

Does anyone here have any other ideas? To me since so many systems are being affected, my thinking was that there must be a ground problem somewhere. Maybe the control panel on the driver side door? I just don't know.

I have no idea where the engine ground is on my 92 lesabre.

Any help, tips or insight greatly appreciated.

First, let me say that you have taken the single greatest step by ordering the factory repair manual. This shows that you have an interest in autos and that you'll willing to invest in some information to get it diagnosed properly. I'm assuming that at one point since you've had the car, the items listed below had worked. If so, and now you have all these failures which seemed to happen around the same time, then the most likely problem is a bad ground. This could also be the reason for your other failures such as batteries, alternators, etc. The question is where would that poor ground be. Your service manual will show you all of those connections and more. When your manual comes in, take a look at the circuits below that's giving you a problem and see where the grounds are connected. Maybe, it's one or two points. I'm not sure of their location(s), but you'll be able to find out from your manual.

The idea about troubleshooting is to analyze the problem, diagnose it and finally confirm your suspicions. So, don't buy any parts until you know for sure what the problem is. If you need help troubleshooting, we can help with that. One thing that you want to make sure of is that your charging system works as it should. With troubleshooting, before you can fix anything, you have to know how it works first. Otherwise, how can you fix something to put it back to a working order if you don't know how it works. So, here are three links part 1 - part 3 which describes how a charging system works, how to troubleshoot it and what NOT to do with your charging system. Be sure to read it and then check your system out. This will keep you a little busy before your manual arrives.

As far as a couple of your issues, they don't sound related to a ground issue. Your radio antenna needs to be secure to have a ground connection, otherwise poor reception and static. And are you sure that you're not getting shocked by static electricity when get out of the car? To prove this point, touch some metal, slide across the seat while still holding onto the metal and see if there's no shock. If not, then it's static electricity.
Holler back when you're ready with more questions.

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/aug2000/techtotech.htm
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/sept2000/techtotech.htm
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/oct2000/techtotech.htm

[G3mInI]

Great articles stuzman. First article I had to read three times and I still don't quite get all of it, but it is clearer to me. Second article was very informative for testing the charging system. I will do all of those tests. The last article, well, I feel sorry for those who have been serviced by 'those' mechanics.

I only have an old, old analog meter, any recommendations for decent but cheap DMM ? Still waiting for the manual to arrive. This is a pic of the one I bought from ebay.

[spinne1]

Originally Posted by G3mInI

Great articles stuzman. First article I had to read three times and I still don't quite get all of it, but it is clearer to me. Second article was very informative for testing the charging system. I will do all of those tests. The last article, well, I feel sorry for those who have been serviced by 'those' mechanics.

I only have an old, old analog meter, any recommendations for decent but cheap DMM ? Still waiting for the manual to arrive. This is a pic of the one I bought from ebay.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you only bought half of the manual set and not the part with all the wiring diagrams in it. You surely need the part you bought for many things, so it is not a waste, but what you need is this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1992-...#ht_500wt_1529

This is a GREAT price. Jump on this auction ASAP before someone else gets it.

[G3mInI]

So glad I did post that picture. Jumped right on that and purchased the electrical systems manual as noted.

Thank you very much for enlightening me. I actually did see that but I figured the electrical part was included in the factory manual.

As you can probably tell, I love my car. I plan on doing major work soon and these manuals will help me accomplish the tasks at hand. Along with the good folks here such as yourself at Automotive Forums !!

Next up transmission. God awful whining sound in all gears. Sounds just like a power steering pump with no fluid, yet this is definitely coming from the transmission (120k miles). I will create a new thread when the time comes for that.

[imidazol97]

Originally Posted by G3mInI

Shocking. Every time we exit the car, upon touching the door to close it you will get a shock. The driver side door seems to produce the greatest shock.

For the seats I recommend putting the spray on the seats that they advertise to prevent static cling for dresses and skirts. It may be called "Cling Free." Check the laundry aisle at the store.

Static electricity is generated when two insulators are rubbed. Different materials have different abilities to generate and hold static charge as you rub your pants across the cloth seats to get out of the car. For me a nylon type windbreaker jacket along with polyester type pants were killers on low humidity days. Touching the metal door handle to close the door gave a jolt.

[stuzman]

Originally Posted by G3mInI

Great articles stuzman. First article I had to read three times and I still don't quite get all of it, but it is clearer to me. Second article was very informative for testing the charging system. I will do all of those tests. The last article, well, I feel sorry for those who have been serviced by 'those' mechanics.

I only have an old, old analog meter, any recommendations for decent but cheap DMM ? Still waiting for the manual to arrive. This is a pic of the one I bought from ebay.

What part of the first article didn't you understand? Let me know and I'll try to break it down a little for you. As far as a DMM, an analog meter isn't much use in working with electronics. For me, I usually buy most of my equipment at www.tequipment.net as it seems to be the cheapest out there. There are a lot of meters out there and a lot of people prefer Fluke meters as myself, but some are expensive, yet they are good. Look at this as an investment and will last you for many years, so you'll want to get a pretty good one. This one is reasonably priced and will provide you with all the features that you need. Anyway, the choice is yours, but this could be an option for you. http://www.tequipment.net/Fluke115.html