Starts When It Wants To

[droyalone]

I have had a starting problem with my 98 Olds. Intrigue for some time now. When I turn the key ignition to start, it would turn, but would not connect (as if no gas). I would listen for the fuel pump and hear it going. Some times it would crank, sometimes it wouldn't. I would sit some days for 15 min. or more. Finally when it would start, it would be fine.

I checked the fuel filter, and it was fine, but I replaced it anyway. I tried it and I would still have inconsistancies with start up. After trying to trace it for a couple of months, it got worse. It got to where when it would start, all guages would light up and the needles would fly all over the place, the service engine light would come on and within seconds the car would shut off. If I pressed down the gas when the guages would go crazy, the car would start but with a chocking sound, as if it was clogged. It was very rough sounding and I looked in the rearview for smoke, but there was none. The car has it's days when it wants to run or not. It has sat for almost a year and I just tried it and it crunk like a new vehicle. I let it run for 15min, switched off and tried again, it worked. The next day, it started back with the problems and the dash dancing around.

The car has 211K and has had 3 (1st in 2000 $200, 2nd in 2002 $250, and 3rd in 2005 @$300) ignition switches put on it. The last time I took it to a dealer, they said it was the ignition switch again. This time they said it would cost $700.

I took it to a very repitable mechanic that works on alternator, batteries, and starters. They stated that it was not the ignition switch, but a computer issue.

A third mechanic said he believes the computer is going bad and giving false readings.

What's really the deal here? I have read posts and found that this Forum gives the best advice. Please, for the sake of my 98 Olds that I purchased 10 years ago, can anyone help?

[droyalone]

BTW it has the 3800 engine.

[LittleHoov]

Well I hate to say it, but it sounds like the ignition switch. Theres almost nothing else that would cause the gauges to dance around like that. There are a few other things that would make it not start, or even not crank, but that dancing gauges is pretty typical of an ignition switch.

Now what you can try doing, if youre feeling really adventurous, is to take your own ignition switch out, and clean up the external contacts. Several members, myself included, have had luck with that.

I did an instructional post on the removal here:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=736656

I think if youve got some confidence, common sense, and a basic set of hand tools, you can do it. Oh, and add patience to that list.

Ignition switch problems are pretty common around here, computer problems are not, take that with the usual grain of salt.

Also, does the Security light blink when it wont crank? Do you have a Service Engine Soon light on when the engine is running?

[droyalone]

Yes, to both of the questions. The security light does blink and the SES light comes on. Whenever it does crank, none of those lights come on nor does the guages jump around.

Do you have any idea why so many ignition switches? It seems like they only last a couple of years and then they need replacing.

By the way, thanks for the quick response and valuable insight. I have read your posts prior to joining and valued your input. You seem very knowledgeable and helpful.

[droyalone]

Originally Posted by LittleHoov

Well I hate to say it, but it sounds like the ignition switch. Theres almost nothing else that would cause the gauges to dance around like that. There are a few other things that would make it not start, or even not crank, but that dancing gauges is pretty typical of an ignition switch.

Now what you can try doing, if youre feeling really adventurous, is to take your own ignition switch out, and clean up the external contacts. Several members, myself included, have had luck with that.

I did an instructional post on the removal here:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=736656

I think if youve got some confidence, common sense, and a basic set of hand tools, you can do it. Oh, and add patience to that list.

Ignition switch problems are pretty common around here, computer problems are not, take that with the usual grain of salt.

Also, does the Security light blink when it wont crank? Do you have a Service Engine Soon light on when the engine is running?

I meant to say that when the light comes on (SES), after it start, the car will cut off.

[LittleHoov]

The blinking Security light means you have a problem with the Passlock system. Which I cant recall if is in the ignition switch itself or the lock cylinder, others have dealt with that problem too though, so they will probably chime in.


I too began having troubles with my ignition switch and the Passlock system not allowing me to start the car, often at the worst times of course.

I decided to take the more barbaric approach and disable the Passlock system completely, this is done by clipping the small yellow wire coming out of the ignition switch while the car is running since I did that, I havent had a single problem.

The downside is, that my Security light stays on all the time, but, no other adverse side effects.

There are other ways to trick the Passlock system, but, I just disabled it entirely.

This has been discussed before too, and if youre feeling adventurous you should make sure the yellow wire is the right one, I currently feel like crap and just got up to check my email, so my brain is mildly foggy.

It could be that you are having a problem with the Passlock portion of the ignition switch as well as the connection portions too...but again thats just a theory.

Thanks for your compliments as well, I try to be helpful when I can, but I dont know about knowledgeable, I think I just sound good sometimes haha.

[dtownfb]

Based on everything I have read, the Passlock has more to do with the tumblers rather than the igniton switch.

[droyalone]

I am going to try this out this weekend. I want this car back on the road. It has been a very good car and I do believe I have plenty of miles left on it.

Again, thanks for your suggestions.

LittleHoov, get well soon.

[droyalone]

What are the tumblers?

Thanks,

[LittleHoov]

tumblers would be the little pin-like "thingies" inside the lock cylinder that the key manipulates in the right manner to allow the lock cylinder to be turned, aka, let you turn the key. Same concept when it comes to unlocking your front door, etc.

Id say either the key or the tumblers, or both, get worn and although itll still let you turn the cylinder but probably doesnt give the Passlock system the electrical value it wants.


Disabling the Passlock system could be a viable option for you, with that high mileage of car, im guessing your shooting for cheap, and functional instead of flair.

[droyalone]

You got it!

[droyalone]

Ok,
I took my car to another dealer who gave me a quote on changing the ignition out. Over the phone they said it would cost $350, which I thought was a lot less than what another local dealer wanted to charge($700). I took it by and they said that they wanted to have it diagnoitic test ran on it to see why I have gone through so many switches (see orginal post). I got the results back and this is what they said:

"We checked over your vehicle, the following is a list of all repairs needed.

Found ignition passlock sensor failed which shorted out ignition switch-need to replace switch and passlock sensor –total-$876.62
Can not communicate with body control module, passlock sensor may be causing this concern or may be internal failure in module, we will not be able to determine until passlock sensor is replaced. If bcm is needed total-$508.57
Oil change –total-$30.18
Blower motor is excessively noisey-total-$27.77"


This passlock senor seems to be an issue with a lot of GM products. Why hasn't there been a recall on this?

LittleHoov it seems you had it right from the start. Now, I have already had this Passlock disabled, so if I change out the ignition, I shouldn't have a problem with it shutting down due to the Passlock right? I am thinking that this all leads to the ignition switch, which is bad due to being shorted out.

The module (computer) still has me concerned, but I don't want to put more money into it than the car is worth. Has anyone seen any control modules for sale?

[LittleHoov]

To be honest I have no experience with replacing the ignition switch after the system has been disabled.

If you were re-using the old lock cylinder, personally I dont think it would cause a problem, but again thats mere speculation. I cleaned my old switch first prior to disabling the Passlock, so everything on mine is the stuff I started out with.

So you disabled the Passlock system right? If so, is the car still giving you problems or have your symptoms changed at all?

Id still try cleaning your old switch if you havent yet, at least if it shows any signs of life. If you tore into it far enough to disable the Passlock, you were halfway there anyway.

[dtownfb]

Here's the price for a body control module from Rockauto.com:

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/rafr...359255k1294875

[droyalone]

I went by to pick up my car today, because I was not going pay the suggested $870, I would try the suggested cleaning posted by LittleHoov first. As soon as I try to crank for the first time, it all happened again. It was as bad as when it first started giving me the problems. I was determined to get home (about 10 miles away). I made it 3 miles down the road and could never get it to stay running. I ended up having it towed back to the dealer. They are going to work on it Monday (almost $900 ) This is my last attempt on the car. If I can just make it last another year!

I will keep you all posted once I get it back and see if this is what's going on.

And thanks to dtownfb for the web address. That site is a gold mine!