high hp

[boostjunkie333]

im getting ready to start a second project with a gsx i bought with a blown engine, and was wondering if anyone could reccomend a reputible site for high hp engines already put together with all the head mods and ect. ive seen t hem a while ago i just cant remember where i found it

[boostjunkie333]

for that matter, what is the outer limits on power for the 4g63...?

ive learned all about the 420a building the one i have now

ive done some research and some ppl have told me if im going to go through the trouble of spending a pretty penny on a hardcore engine that id be better off getting one of the newer mivec 4g63's since they are "bulletproof" as i keep reading

any ideas.......

[Thor06]

You're reading the wrong things. It would be ridiculous of you to try to put a MIVEC in a DSM, though if its a 93 or later you're going to want to do a 6 bolt swap.Keep trying though, most people don't even make it that far.

I'd recommend www.maperformance.com myself. I've talked with Chris there a number of times, as I did a few of the techs and they are all great guys.

[Blackcrow64]

The quick reply has f*cked me again...

I had this huge thing I wrote out over a span of 20 minutes and then I lost it...

>_<

Maybe I'll type it again later today after I dislodge my keyboard from the wall...

[boostjunkie333]

lol thanks...

i got lucky and found a trashed gsx in my state, and jumped on the opp. to buy it, still not sure the culprit of the death of the engine, but it wont work, and im replacing anyway

well, this is the main forum i come to looking for answers but every once in a while i look at other sites to see what they have to say, and you wouldnt believe it its like a total different set of answers, like the twilight zone

but i have found this site to be the most accurate about the advice and info you give so, go yous guys

anyways, in case your wondering, ive just recently gotten a crazy job working for the state, thus i have a good amount of "side cash" to start a project, and i wanna build a reputible gsx with maybe a goal of aboutttt....700?? ive seen where they say 700 on a gsx is tough to do? accurate? is this pushing the limits?

[Thor06]

I'd suggest making small goals and working it up from there... i.e. get it running first, then aim for like 300 and see where you are when you get there. Unless you plan to pay someone to do it every step of the way, there is a learning curve for this and you will fuck up at least a little (everyone does, myself included) so better to do it before you have 7x the value of the car sitting under the hood, know what I mean?

The other thing is that 700 hp is a LOT more then you think it is, and it's pretty much impossible for the mere mortal. In all honesty, I'd be kinda damn surprised if I was much passed the 300whp mark this past summer and though I never really launched it, I did harp on it a couple times in second and it literally scared me.

[boostjunkie333]

what im worried about is once it comes time to choose a turbo thatll basically put down a lot of power while maintaining streetabilty on my path to high hp =)

you know?

thats one worry...who makes a good kit for the 4g63, ive got hahn for my 420a but was told they arent so good for the 4g

the gsx in particular obviously

[LandoAWD]

Originally Posted by boostjunkie333

what im worried about is once it comes time to choose a turbo thatll basically put down a lot of power while maintaining streetabilty on my path to high hp =)

you know?

thats one worry...who makes a good kit for the 4g63, ive got hahn for my 420a but was told they arent so good for the 4g

the gsx in particular obviously

www.dsmtuners.com

Check the upgrade path and the vendors list.

I love this forum, there are som great tech guys here, but the sheer mass of info for you to sift through on Tuners will keep you busy. Use the "Search site with Google" feature. I PROMISE you cannot ask a question that hasn't been answered before.

[boostjunkie333]

nice...

this should keep me busy for a while

lol thanks

[boostjunkie333]

hang on, what i really seem to wanna know is, when shopping for a stroker kit or whatever else, where do u draw the line between the best street kit and actual drag racing...

these drag kits i see...couldnt work for me on a daily street driver could it? which would be the best stroker kit for high hp and streetability?

ive read around, and it seems that the 2.2 stroker magnus offers is like a mix between low range power and high rev, would this be agood choice for me to start cnsidering and planning around?

[LandoAWD]

Define clear goals and links to whatever "kits" you're asking about. My crystal ball is on jackstands.

[david-b]

Originally Posted by boostjunkie333

ive read around, and it seems that the 2.2 stroker magnus offers is like a mix between low range power and high rev, would this be agood choice for me to start cnsidering and planning around?

Stroker kits aren't made to be a high revving motor. Strokers help with spooling turbos, which is why you can add a big turbo to one and have that spool before a non-stroker. However, you have to consider what turbo you'll be getting at, and if that's a streetable turbo to begin with.

Agreed with Lando... need links OR call the companies that make them and see what they recommend, but you need to know exactly what you want to do first.

[boostjunkie333]

well the stroker kits i found are made by magnus, or at least i found them on the dsmtuners build path page, ill try to find it again and post a link

but, my goal for this build is to have a high hp streetable gsx, not too much where its useless bc of all the lag, but an engine that can handle whatever i do to it in the future, and a nice low-lag streetable turbo kit...

i was told on here that although hahn does great for the 420a, not so much for the 4g63 and thats why im asking, i dont know so much about the 4g...

as of right now i plan to start buying and building in mid march, and so far im looking at getting a 1g block to start with, and basically im looking around for a good set of street/track internals

also, a question that sticks out in my mind, when ordering a crank...some of the cranks i found on dsm tuners were like...thousands of dollars...is my choice in cranks THAT important? for example, one of them was 3 grand...i mean does THAT much technology go into the making of these things? is this a part that i dont wanna skimp out on? benefits?

[Thor06]

After thought: Hope ya'll are ready for a book. Junkie, this will be a lot to read, but I think it will help you. Go grab a beer and sit down with this for a few minutes, it'll take a while but I promise it will be worth it!

Dave obviously hasn't looked at the Magnus 2.2 . The only reason strokers shouldn't be revved as high is because of their inferior rod ratio. From what I gather, the higher the rod ratio, the higher the revvability. Stay with me here.

There are two versions of the Magnus 2.2... the one for the 4g63 and the one for the 4g64. For those that don't know, both blocks were machined from the same castings but the bore was set to 85mm for the 4g63 compared to the 86.5mm for the 4g64, and there was an extra 6mm lopped off the top of the 4g63 to account for the 12mm less stroke. So for the 4g63 based 2.2, Magnus utilized its own 92mm stroke crank, stock length (150 mm) rods, pistons with the wrist pins moved up 2mm to account for the extra stroke, and they also utilize the max bore of 88mm. Now the only difference between the 4g63 and the 4g64 based 2.2's is that the 4g64 has 6mm taller deck height, so it can use a 156mm rod.

Now lets do some analysis on all this. I'll calculate rod ratios and displacements for a few different engine setups, and I'll use cubic centimeters instead of liters for accuracy reasons... "literage of a motor is very inaccurate and rounded, IMO often times to make it sound more impressive than it really is. Also, if you move the decimal place three to the left of the "cc" number, you will get the literage, which is then rounded off i.e. 1997cc = 1.997 L rounds to 2.0L. For starters, heres stock.

-Stock 4g63 - RR: 1.7045, Displacement: 1997.4cc
-Stock 4g64 - RR: 1.5000, Displacement: 2350.6cc

Now lets go on to Magnus 2.2's:

-4g63 based 2.2 - RR: 1.6304, Displacement: 2238.2cc
-4g64 based 2.2 - RR: 1.6956, Displacement: 2238.2cc

Now just for shits and giggles, lets do a few more.

-2.0 with an overbore of .020" or .5mm - RR: 1.7045, Displacement: 2021.0cc
-2.0 with an overbore of .040" or 1mm - RR: 1.7045, Displacement: 2044.7cc
-2.3L Stroker - Uses 4g63 block, 150mm rods, "stroker" pistons with the wrist pin moved up 6mm to account for the extra stroke, and the 100mm 2.4 crank. I'll assume overbore of .020" or .5mm upon rebuild - RR: 1.500, Displacement: 2296.6cc
-2.3L Stroker - Save as above, but now I'll assume a .040" or 1mm overbore on rebuild - RR: 1.500, Displacement: 2323.5cc
-2.1L Destroker - Uses 4g64 block, 162mm rods, "stroker" pistons, and the 88mm 2.0 crank. I'll assume .020" or .5mm overbore. - RR: 1.8409, Displacement: 2092.5cc
-"High Rev" 2.0 - 4g63 block and crank, 156mm rods, and the same "stroker" pistons as the 2.3L uses, .020" or .5mm overbore on rebuild - RR: 1.773, Displacement: 2021.0cc
-"High Rev" 2.4 - 4g64 block and crank, 156mm rods, and the same "stroker" pistons as the 2.3L uses, .020" or .5mm overbore on rebuild - RR: 1.5600, Displacement: 2377.9cc

Now lets analyze this a bit. The stock 4g63 and the 4g64 based Magnus 2.2 have basically identical (only .0089 different) rod ratios which means they will have the same revvability, but the Magnus kit offers a 240.8cc (or .24L) displacement increase! The 4g63 based 2.2 is a pretty good kit too, though it brings the rod ratio down by .0741, it offers the same 240.8cc increase. I find this very interesting, because the 2.3L decreases the rod ratio by .2045 which is SIGNIFICANTLY more than the 4g63 based 2.2, but only offers a displacement increase of 326.1 or .32L even with the 1mm overbore, which is only a 85.3cc or .085L over the 2.2.

More off topic analysis. This is also the reason I get a big kick out of people getting huge boners over their 4g64 thinking they have a better deal than the 2.3 when it is simply untrue. First off, people seem to think the 2.4L is better suited for revs than the 2.3L which is utter bullshit as they have the exact same stroke and rod length, and obviously rod ratio. Sure a person could do the "High Rev" version of the 2.4, but I've never heard of it done, and even so a 1.56 RR is hardly worth the effort. Beyond that, the 2.4 owners think they get a whole .1L of turbo spooling displacement, but thats a crock too. The stock 2.4 has 2350.6cc of displacement which BARELY makes it a 2.4. Now the 2.3L people that have also bored over a .5mm have a displacement of 2296.6. That means the 2.4L people have all of about a half liter advantage on a person that bored over .5mm for their 2.3, or a quarter liter on someone with a 1mm overbore. Sure the 2.4 guys can bore over too, but regardless the difference is laughable in my opinion.

Now why does Thor know all of this? I have been trying to decide EXACTLY the same thing as you over the past couple months, but I have been doing it so I know what I want to do in a couple years when I graduate college and get a job. The other side to the displacement coin is the cost. You can build a standard Eagle/Wiseco combo 2.0L and put a 9k rpm worthy head on it with FP or Comp cams for what, like $2000-$2300 all said and done with reasonably good cores and if you do the build yourself. Add a couple hundred bucks if you want a 2.3. If you want that 2.2 now you have to figure $3300 just for the damn rotating assembly, so now you're around $5000 for parts and machine work if you can build a motor. Cant build it yourself? Well now you are looking at a $5500 2.0L or 2.3L long block from SBR, a pretty comparable price plus a few grand for someone else to build you a motor with the 2.2 guts, or you can just shell $13,000 out for a Magnus race motor. Playing with displacement gets expensive, you have to figure in your goals for the car before you do it.

IMO, its all about the cost-reward ratio. That 4g64 based 2.2L would be nice, but is it really worth it? If you have rich parents or a lot of experience with DSMs and building motors then sure, but if you are paying for this I'd straight up call you and idiot for shelling out that kind of cash on a motor that, in all likihood, you will blow up before you are done with DSM's. We've all been there.

So here's what I would do if I were you. If you can get a used motor to get the car running and get you used to wrenching on it, then thats what you should do. On the other hand, if you insist on building a motor I'd build a standard ass 2.0L with Eagle Rods, 8.3:1 - 8.5:1 Wiseco or Ross pistons, FP2 or Comp 101200 cams, and some titanium retainers and dual springs. I'd use ACL or King bearings, I've heard some not so good things about Clevites last time I did research on them. Have the bitch O-ringed and use a stock headgasket, and I'd use a OE front case and timing belt too. That would get you a completely capable motor and a fairly affordable price.

Now get the beast running, and get it running with the bolt ons it has now. Do the motor break in, then start setting SMALLER goals and working up to them. Do the easy and cheap bolt ons first, like a FMIC, exhaust, boost control, etc. Next step is DSMlink. After that upgrade your fuel stuff, get plenty big enough injectors and a Walbro 255 with adaquate regulator. Get used to and good at tuning. Somewhere along the line you'll need a new clutch and flywheel if you opt to. If the tranny is shifting like shit, snag a Shep Stage 2 or 3. Run whatever turbo its got to the tits, then get a more moderate turbo like a 50 trim or something. Once you learn to tune for and drive that, go bigger if you like.

Just be sure to start slow and take your time learning how to work on and mod these cars, and things should go fairly smoothly. Make small goals and meet them, then make bigger goals and meet those too. Just know that things will not end well if you jump into this balls first and not brains first.

[Thor06]

In response to that last post, use a remanned crank. $350 from Slowboy, probably less elsewhere, or even cheaper if you can get a good deal on a nice-ish stock crank that either doesnt need machine work or doesnt need much.

Also, 4g63 guys dont do "turbo kits." You'll have to piece together your turbo setup depending on what turbo you pick. As for a steetable turbo, many will give you different opinions on whats streetable. IMO between a 50 trim and a GT30 is about where you'd want to be on a "street/strip" turbo. If memory serves, a good 50 trim like a FP green should get you pretty good into the 400 whp range and spool by around 3800 on a 2.0, or a GT30 variant like a FP 3065 should get you into the 500 whp range and spool a little after 4k.

FWIW, I'm planning on building a similar motor the one I outlined to you above, and mating a FP3065 to it. I have a lot of school to finish and to get a job first though.