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[Panoz Paul]

Good Morning , I ran my GT-Ra for 15 track day events at BIR last season & have the need for more H.P. ; I know that this is a strange phenomenon reading the other treads ... In my case ; I'm looking for a smaller step & remaining in a predictable / reliable platform to preserve the fun level , budget & new marriage ... For Christmas , Kimberly ( wife ) snooped through my Summit Catalog where there was a few thoughts marked w/ post-its ... Santa via UPS brough a Edlebrock 75 mm T.body ( anniversery gift ) & a Trickflow -Track Heat Intake w/ phenolic heat spacer that was under the tree 5 days later for Christmas... Looking for some input about utilizing the 5.0 mustang world of " go-fast " parts ...
Thanks / Paul W. / Duluth , MN.

[PRO SYSTEMS]

Hi Paul,

Removing the EFI stuff completely will give you the biggest gain. We have customers that have 5.0 Mustangs and JUST removing the EFI and adding a dual plane intake and a carb they pick up 30 h.p.

IF you are after real power, swap out the heads for some of the new edelbrock aluminum A sedan heads (a great value). Shim the springs to 140# and add a solid lifter cam and roller rockers with about 246/254 and .500 lift (.500 lift so your valve reliefs won't be an issue). That cam seems big for the 9.5 to one compression ratio...but its not.

You can get these cams from A/Sedan racers pretty cheap as they are always swapping them out. You'll have great throttle response and good power, the engine will pull to 7000 rpm and you'll get 400 flywheel h.p. out of it even with your shorty headers.

Thats the power it needs in that car.

This is a pretty standard combo that will run low 2:30's at Sebring at 3200 lbs and 140 mph and 2:10's at Daytona in the heat of the summer. You'll be faster than that yet.

Your trans and rear end are waaay overbuilt for the job. So don't worry about them.

We use a stock World Class T5 (cheap tranny) and a little 8.8 rearend in our A sedan car. Never broke a thing.

Any engine builder can assemble this combo "IN" your car pretty fast. It's a pretty good idea to use a builder so they degree in the cam and clay the valve reliefs "just in case".

Patrick James
PRO SYSTEMS

[Cobra4B]

Paul... we've elected to go with an Ed Curtis (Flow-Tech Induction) spec'd cam and AFR 165s etc. Ditching the EFI and using a Pro-Systems road race spec'd carb. We're shooting for 320-340 rwhp out of the 5.0 and Swapping to carb and aluminum heads should drop around 70lbs from the car.

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by PRO SYSTEMS

Hi Paul,

IF you are after real power, swap out the heads for some of the new edelbrock aluminum A sedan heads (a great value). Shim the springs to 140# and add a solid lifter cam and roller rockers with about 246/254 and .500 lift (.500 lift so your valve reliefs won't be an issue). That cam seems big for the 9.5 to one compression ratio...but its not.

You can get these cams from A/Sedan racers pretty cheap as they are always swapping them out. You'll have great throttle response and good power, the engine will pull to 7000 rpm and you'll get 400 flywheel h.p. out of it even with your shorty headers.

Hi Patrick, I am interested in what the power curves look like for the suggested combo. At what RPM is the peak power of 400 made, what is peak torque and at what RPM is this made? Would be great if you could post a pic of dyno curves if possible.

Thanks, Kel.

[PRO SYSTEMS]

Unfortunately, specific info like that is held pretty tight as these combinations are used in in our highly competitive American Sedan class.

We used our car to develop the carburetors and test engine packages and parts for this class for a Ford Sponsored team and have won the National Runoffs two years in a row and the 2008 SCCA Triple Crown with these highly developed combinations. We hope to make it three in a row this year.

So exact info is guarded pretty tight.

We worked with an Engine builder Ken Felice ( www.feliceracing.com ) You can contact him directly via their website and see if he will release specific info to you, but I can/will/should only offer general info that A/Sedan racers already know so as not to lose any power advantage.

But this general info is enough to do what we want to do here anyway.

None of us need to hire a Formula One team to test spin valvetrain components like these guys do.

We just need a little more power.

Patrick James
PRO SYSTEMS

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by PRO SYSTEMS

Unfortunately, specific info like that is held pretty tight as these combinations are used in in our highly competitive American Sedan class.

Ah, the mysterys of motor racing huh!!

One other thing that I am interested in though Patrick, how durable have you found the stock 5.0 bottom ends? I have been warned by several Ford 'experts' in New Zealand not to spin the engine abover 6000rpm if at all possible due to weak crank and block. I have been told the engine is a hand grenade at my current power level of 400hp (at 5700rpm) even though I am restricting rpm to 5800.

Cheers Patrick, Kel.

[PRO SYSTEMS]

We bought a car that came with a short block that was bought off a cheap internet rebuilding company for $900.00.

It was the late model 5.0 stock block with forged pistons and stock rods but with good bolts and still had the fat 50 oz crank.

We regularly shifted it at 6600 rpm with no issues at all when we had to run our GT40P heads (new aluminum heads were not legal then).

If you are going to go beyond 7000 rpm a lot, zero balance the crank that helps the block stresses tremendously. Also take it easy on the up and downshifts. Slamming it into the next gear will make you only minutely faster. But is hard on parts. Slow down just a little on the clutch release speed a little, slip it for 1/10th of a second to take up the slack before full engagement for both up and downshifts. This keeps from shocking the crank and splitting the block. I never got the clutch hot doing that. I never broke a transmission or a rear end either.

But in most races you only need to whip it hard for the first few laps and get a good lead ... then back off on the shift rpm a little and take your deserved win.

Patrick James
PRO SYSTEMS

[Panoz Paul]

Thanks... I'm not sure if I want to dive into the heads ... Does any one have a insight to the performance of the parts combo that Santa brought me ??? If I go for a carb / manafold ; can you guys give me a manufacture for the manifold & carb size ... Other associated question w/ the carb approuch ,does the cars computer need to be re-mapped & do i need a tool box full of jets to run in 40 to 110 degrees w/ all ranges of relative humidity... Speaking of weight , I 've heard the PI system should be replaced w/ analoge gauges , not using the tracking / data collection feature & would rather glance at my engin stats ...

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Panoz Paul

Thanks... I'm not sure if I want to dive into the heads ... Does any one have a insight to the performance of the parts combo that Santa brought me ??? If I go for a carb / manafold ; can you guys give me a manufacture for the manifold & carb size ... Other associated question w/ the carb approuch ,does the cars computer need to be re-mapped & do i need a tool box full of jets to run in 40 to 110 degrees w/ all ranges of relative humidity... Speaking of weight , I 've heard the PI system should be replaced w/ analoge gauges , not using the tracking / data collection feature & would rather glance at my engin stats ...

Cant comment on injection output, I will leave that to those with more experience with the injected combo.

Regards a carb and manifold combo, if you are going to use in the 2500 - 6500 rpm rev range as I suspect you will want to, then an Edelbrock Performer RPM (or similar) and a 600 - 650 cfm carb is probably about right. You will not need the computer anymore and you will need to change out your distributor.

Your engine will have around 220 - 230 hp now, changing to new manifold and carb will probably get you up to around 260 - 270 hp, maybe a little more. The heads & cam are where the power is really made. By stretching your budget to a set of aluminium heads and a cam with more duration/lift, you will get up above 350hp.

I have just been through this exercise. Key engine parts cost was around USD$2,775. You can spend a bunch more on super dooper parts if you choose to but you probably wont get much under this figure using reasonable quality gear. Engine made 400hp/390 torque at the flywheel on the stock bottom end.

PI system Vs analogue is really a matter of personal choice, if you have the alert parameters set correctly on the PI unit, it will flash and warn you of any over temps or pressure issues. Just a matter of getting used to this type of system or ditching it if uncomfortable with not being able to scan all different parameters at the same time.

[Blue Streak 21]

I went with Canfield heads, the Ford Racing B-303 cam, a copy of the Edlebrock EFI intake manifold, 75 mm TB, and roller rockers. I think I'm close to 350 HP at the motor. The bottom end of the motor is stock. I shift at 6000 to 6200 RPMs. As far as reliability/durability, I missed a couple of up shifts at red line during races (got 3rd instead of 5th), and the thing held together. I'm sure I hit 8000 with the misshift.
I went to anolog gauges just last weekend. I couldn't get used to the PU Dash (Freudian slip). For me it was very hard to see RMP, or critical temps during the heat of battle. The install of the gauge pack was straight forward, and it looks nice with the three pack sitting below the large analog tach.
Jerry

[Panoz Paul]

Good Morning & thanks again ... Jerry , As you removed the PU system , did you just start at the dash unit & un- strap / un- tape to remove the complete wire harness or use the harness for connecting the gauges ???
Did you repete every PI function or drop some of the outer perameters , ie ... fuel pressure , oil temp. , speedometer ???
Please post a few pictures & note any problem areas ...
Paul / Car 46 ; Chassis 37

[jmimac351]

Paul, save yourself some time and contact Ed Curtis at Flowtech www.flowtechinduction.com

He's done a lot of windsor engine setups for mustangs and knows these intakes and what works inside and out. Agree to buy a cam from him and you'll get to access his brain to spec out the setup (which heads, mass air meter, injectors, etc) and custom design a cam for it. The intake you have is fine although I'm not sure Ed will want you to use the spacer.

As for the PI thing, it's sort of like trying to read my BlackBerry while driving. Have you ever wired a car? If you've never wired a car you might want to just leave it and add a few gauges: Tach, oil temp, oil press? Maybe use the PI to access water temp, fuel pressure, and volts. If you're staying EFI I'd definitely want to see fuel pressure.

[jmimac351]

Or, when this comes out for small block Fords in the spring it could be interesting...

[Wess-RA]

Originally Posted by PRO SYSTEMS

Removing the EFI stuff completely will give you the biggest gain. We have customers that have 5.0 Mustangs and JUST removing the EFI and adding a dual plane intake and a carb they pick up 30 h.p.


PRO SYSTEMS

Patrick, for real? I was thinking of waiting another year to do a whole engine swap out, maybe something like Brian G (but not nearly so powerful) or an LS1 like Eric. If I can get 30hp now and reuse the intake and carb with the next engine, that would be outstanding. Am I understanding that correctly, or is there more to it? I know, there is always more to it!

[PRO SYSTEMS]

I know crazy but its true, carbs make more power than EFI. I have yet to run into a situation where that is not true and regularly in some of our drag racing classes, our carbureted cars are forced to carry a 100 lb penalty versus an EFI counterpart.

But let me give you a road racing example: In 2003 we designed a carb based on the rules packages written for the Rolex 24, that not only qualified number one in class. The car (#40 Corvette driven by Justin Bell powered by CRD) was the number one qualifier at the Rolex 24. Ahead of the Daytona Prototypes and everybody. Here sets this Justin Bell CRD powered Pro Systems carbureted Corvette.

Click this link and arrow down to January and February of 2003 for Test session information and Qualifying results.

http://www.prosystemsracing.com/news.html

Well the Rolex 24 folks would have none of that and would not allow Justin to lead the field to the Green and made Justin start at the front of his own class. They immediately re wrote the rules regarding carburetors in the series (essentially giving them such a huge disadvantage that it wrote them out of the series).

It was a great last in your face hurrah for carburetors (man did we have some power).

Although carburetors still dominate in SCCA GT-1 (we won this years Runoffs in GT1) and in A/Sedan (we won the Runoffs there as well and the 2008 SCCA Triple Crown..so it was a good year).

But alas carbs are getting few and far between in road racing. Folks find them difficult to understand when they are malfunctioning. A laptop is how people are used to running their lives. It's a shame too, as they are simple and reliable and you can repair them in seconds if there is a component failure or change them quickly if there is an engine combination change.

I build carbs for road racing as more of a passion. I love road racing. but it is merely 2 percent of our business. Drag racing where carbs dominate thefields is our player by far.

Zora Duntov once said "If a guy came along AFTER E.F.I. and invented the carburetor, he would be heralded a genius".

Heres a link to some insight into why carbs make more power.

http://www.pro-system.com/scoop92102.html

Patrick James
PRO SYSTEMS