Starting problems?

[skate1968]

It started out as an odd nuiscance that only happened on accaision. But now it's gotten much worse.

1. I turn the key and it does not turn. There is no crank over. A faint 'click' noise is heard and nothing else.

2. I turn the key and it does not turn. There is no crank over. A faint 'click' noise is heard and nothing else.

3. I take the key out. The automatic seatbelt adjusts. Put it in again. I turn the key and a faint 'click' noise is heard.

4. I turn the key and it does not turn. There is no crank over. A faint 'click' noise is heard and nothing else.

5. I take the key out. Put it in again. I turn the key and it fires right up and it's running fine.

It only happens when the engine is cold. At first it was just an odd little thing that happened occaisionally. Now, today, it's a big concern.

The battery is new. My car is a 91 honda civic DX, D15b engine. I use thicker oil (which i know can be a strain -- especially in cold weather).

Thanks for reading.

UPDATE, 5-29-09: This problem miraculously 'fixed itself' for a good 5 and half months. But now it has just recently returned -- the past few days. I just got the thing inspected last week and this was not an issue or a concern.

I'm thinking that it might behoove me to take it to my mechanic and leave it over night. Let him try to start it in the morning and see what kind of code it spits out.

I'm now resorting to 'kick starting' it. I park at a where there's a decline and can easily just roll it.

[skate1968]

People at the 'Bob is the Oil Guy' said that it sounded like a starter problem.

[FrodoGT]

More than likely if the battery is new. Also check and make sure the contacts are tight and making a good connection.

[Christ]

Or you have a 20 year old car w/ a worn out key or ignition switch... Test the starter by jumping the solenoid, if it turns immediately, trace the simple circuit from the solenoid back to the keyswitch.

[sparkeykev]

Originally Posted by skate1968

It started out as an odd nuiscance that only happened on accaision. But now it's gotten much worse.



1. I turn the key and it does nothing -- no turning.

2. I take the key out. Put it in again. I turn the key and it does nothing -- no turning.

3. I take the key out. Put it in again. It starts to turn. Then it does nothing.

4. I take the key out. Put it in again. It starts to turn. Then it does nothing.

5. I take the key out. Put it in again. It turns, fires up and it's running fine.

It only happens when the engine is cold. At first it was just an odd little thing that happened occaisionally. Now, today, it's a big concern.

The battery is new. My car is a 91 honda civic DX, D15b engine. I use thicker oil (which i know can be a strain -- especially in cold weather).

Thanks for reading.

Tap the starter firmly a couple of times (with hammer) or whatever you have try starting if it has improved you have worn out brushes in starter and you need to repair or replace it

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Dr0pZ0n3

Or you have a 20 year old car w/ a worn out key or ignition switch... Test the starter by jumping the solenoid, if it turns immediately, trace the simple circuit from the solenoid back to the keyswitch.

Not true. Even if it turns over first try when you jump the solenoid, its usually signs of the solenoid going out on the starter. removing the key and reinserting it is pointless, it was just an extra step you were taking.

Was there even a click when you tried and got "nothing"? My white hatch was doing this before the timing belt snapped on it, especially when it was cold. I would go out in the mornings and try to start it and it would just click. I would either keep trying it and eventually it would crank over, or I would go out and jump the starter over myself, which ended not working later down the line.

[skate1968]

Bump

First off I'd like to thank the members of this forum for providing lots of good tips which have allowed me to be very comfortable with my eighteen year old car.



(i'll thank all of you before i start asking you for help again )

[skate1968]

Originally Posted by Tony

Was there even a click when you tried and got "nothing"?

This is a good point. Actually there was a 'click' noise. But no rev of the engine (or no 'turning' as i believe to be the correct term).

(I'll go back and edit my original post to include this detail.)

Originally Posted by Tony

My white hatch was doing this before the timing belt snapped on it, especially when it was cold. I would go out in the mornings and try to start it and it would just click. I would either keep trying it and eventually it would crank over, or I would go out and jump the starter over myself, which ended not working later down the line.

That pretty much describes what i'm often doing (except my timing belt hasn't broke).

I'm wondering if you guys might have more ideas before i give it to my mechanic. I fear him just wanting to start replacing things when a simple inexpensive fix might suffice.


(thanks again for reading)

[skate1968]

Originally Posted by Tony

removing the key and reinserting it is pointless, it was just an extra step you were taking.

Time has shown this to be true. I think that removing and reinserting the key just made me feel as though i was not wearing out the starter as quickly.

[Tony]

If its just clicking and not turning over, and all your lights are staying on on the dash, its not the battery and its the starter, just replace it.

I have my white hatch going again and haven't had that many problems out of it since I got it running again. It has only done it once on me since.

[Christ]

When (if) you replace the starter, take the old one out and pull it apart.. It's just a couple bolts, and if you stick pieces of stiff wire in the holes at the bottom (from memory, they may be elsewhere), the brushes won't come out on you.

When you pull it apart, check the magnets on the housing, and check the epoxy on the armature. If the armature's epoxy appears to be melted, puddled, whatever, the whole starter is bad (or getting there), but if the housing and armature look OK (no cracks in the housing, no fragments or burnt/melted/etc epoxy), you can probably replace the brushes (about $10), clean up the contact points and the armature, and you'll have a spare starter if you ever need one.

I don't buy new ones, b/c it's usually the brushes that cause them to go out.. if you've ever heard someone talk about a "dead spot" in a starter, it's melted epoxy or worn brushes.

The epoxy melts from heat... when it melts, the windings in the starter short out on each other, and don't generate the proper magnetic force necessary to turn the armature with enough torque to spin the engine. This starter is now a brick. This particularly happens when people crank on the starter for more than 10 seconds (read the owner's manual for almost all vehicles), without letting the starter cool down after they've done so, and do it again. I've seen people who wouldn't stop cranking until they saw smoke coming from the starter... by this point, damage is imminent.

[Christ]

Tony - there is never a point where jumping the solenoid won't work. When you do this, you're effectively bypassing the switch circuit - and the internals of the solenoid (which is a pair of contact points, in case anyone doesn't know). When you make contact between the posts of the solenoid, you've created a closed circuit that will do what the solenoid is normally supposed to do, which is complete the large gauge wire circuit from the battery to the starter.


Doing this doesn't test the effectiveness of the solenoid, it tests whether the starter is any good. If the starter spins up when you complete the circuit, the keyswitch or the ignition circuit are the next two obvious choices.

To test the workings of the solenoid, you remove the lead from the ignition circuit, and replace it with an alligator clip (or similar test lead), then touch the other end to the battery. If the solenoid is bad, the starter won't turn.

[Tony]

I haven't dove that much into starters Christ, but when it would click on me and not turn over, I would simply jump the solenoid over and it would turn right over. Doesn't do it all the time, seemed to be worse in the cold, but just seems this car doesn't like the cold weather at all anyway.

[Christ]

That's kind of the "coup" of diagnosing a starter... the diagnosis costs more than the repair, usually, since the problem never presents when you want it to.

Chances are, you had (have) a sticking solenoid. (A few taps from a hammer will also fix this issue, but for a different reason.

I've not delved into solenoids more than to know that if you can get it off the starter housing, you can wire in an exchangeable solenoid from a Ford Product (days of old), and it works just as well.

Pull apart your main relay (or a turn signal flasher) one day, as I'm sure you, Tony, have - and look at the guts... the two contact points are exactly what's inside the starter's solenoid, only on a much larger scale.

The small lead from the ignition switch only serves to complete one (very small, low-amp) circuit, which completes another (much larger, high-amp) circuit.

When you turn the key, the power on the small line provides field to a coil which is acted upon by a magnet, which draws two larger contact points together. The larger contact points are what actually turns the starter. It's safer than a huge manual switch, and less wiring too.

The same thing happens with normal turn signal relays and etc... headlights as well. Headlights (especially newer HID systems, etc.) require tremendous amp draw at times (almost constantly) compared to standard halon bulbs - so instead of creating a full wiring schematic that will handle the amp draw, and for heat/safety considerations, they use a much smaller lead from the switch that "turns on" the bigger lead which actually powers the event. (That's why there are 3 legs on a relay... field, circuit, and common ground).

Hope that helps explain it a little better.

[skate1968]

Again, thanks to Tony and Christ for answering my question. (Geez, Mr Christ, you're talking way over my head!!! )

Originally Posted by Christ

...you can probably replace the brushes (about $10), clean up the contact points and the armature, and you'll have a spare starter if you ever need one.

I don't buy new ones, b/c it's usually the brushes that cause them to go out.. if you've ever heard someone talk about a "dead spot" in a starter, it's melted epoxy or worn brushes.

Christ,

I was thinking that i'd need to buy the more expensive starter from the Honda Stealership instead of the lower priced NAPA or Autozone. But after reading your post it sounds as if rebuilding a starter is often a mere matter of replacing these brushes. Therefore i might easily get away with a NAPA or Autozone starter. Am i right?

(I'm asking this because some believe that the electrical components coming from the dealer are much more reliable.)

Heck i'm tempted to go to my trusted mechanic and ask him to have a go at replacing the brushes in the starter.

BTW, the car is now starting OK. It's been starting up OK. Go figure. It was a problem. Then it's fine for 4 moths. It was a problem again. And yesterday it was not. Very odd.

(Furthermore, i realize that I am being chinsey and tightfisted. If you guys grow tired of addressing all of my questions on this subject then just say so.)