Bad coil pack symptoms

[searcherrr]

I have looked and forgive if I've asked before, but what do people normally notice if they have a bad coil pack?

Is it possible to have a bad coil pack and the ONLY symptom be bad gas mileage?

Also, the coil packs that go bad in our Winnies - is it more the post 98 models or all models?

[LeSabre97mint]

If your coil is original I'd replace it. Have you searched the Windstar's forum for coil? I saw a few posts about the coils cracking on the bottom. I'd at least pull the 4 bolts and take a peek at it.

Dan

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by LeSabre97mint

If your coil is original I'd replace it. Have you searched the Windstar's forum for coil? I saw a few posts about the coils cracking on the bottom. I'd at least pull the 4 bolts and take a peek at it.

Dan

I almost replaced the coil a long time ago, but now as I recall the AdvanceAuto guy said that my coils are likely ok if there's no cracking in the upper silicone area. Still I've never pulled the coil to see all around it and/or test for resistance (which I don't know what numbers I should see either).

If I am getting shocked by my driver's door (engine off) when I exit the vehicle is this a clue?

[tripletdaddy]

Errrrrrr!!!!!!
Blasted crapy old computer ate my first try at posting to you what info I have on the coil testing. I thought you have a cd manual that would have this, so I looked at mine by Ford and couldn't find it. That's where I like a book better, which is from where I'll be quoting.

Primary resistance should be 0.3 to 1.0 ohms. This is taken at the four pins on the coil with the harness removed. One pin to the side is the common hot, 12v pin (red/lt green wire), and the other three are the negative side for the three coil pairs. So, you should have the spec resistance across all three pairs, ie. hold one lead at common end pin while testing the other three with the other lead.

At this same time, you can also test for primary voltage to the red/lt green wire by disconnecting the harness and measuring voltage at it with KOEOff and using a ground. Don't try using the other three pin connections in the harness for grounding as it may kill your PCM. You should measure nearly or exactly battery voltage.

Secondary resistance is measured across the pairs of spark plug wire holes, with 1 and 5, 2 and 6, and 3 and 4 as pairs. You should measure 6.5 to 11.5 k-ohms between paired holes. I also like to check for any measurable resistance between the primaries and the coil body, and the secondaries and the body to be sure the coil isn't shorting itself out. You may need to remove the coil for the primary short test as you may get a false reading. NOTE!! All resistance tests should be done with key off, maybe battery cable off so no oopses.

Secondary voltage can also be tested with one of those clip on plug testers that have an adjustable spark gap. I just was looking at them yesterday. According to the Ford cd I have and what one tester said, you can expect up to 40,000 volts. I'd say off hand, if it is below 20kv, and your spark is not bright blue, your coil is weak. You may also want to measure your plug wire resistance, which approx. is 5,000 ohms per foot.

I was thinking if you have an incomplete combustion of fuel problem as postulated with your depressed mpg rate, I'd expect you to be getting fault codes that would support that, you would have dirty plugs, and you would have gassy smelling and sooty exhaust. Maybe it's not detectable enough to throw codes.

Here's a link to someone else's recent coil issues that you might find relevant.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=933304

[wiswind]

The shocking from the vehicle with the engine off that you mention has nothing to do with the coil......it is static electricity.....I get the same thing.

As far as the coil pack and fuel economy.......some people are more sensitive to a slight miss in the motor than others.....I remember years ago my father mentioning their vehicle was running rough.....my mom thought it was running just fine.....she only noticed a problem when the engine quit....as long as it was running......she did not notice anything else.

The testing that Tripletdaddy is spot on....however the cracked epoxy issue will NOT show up in this test......the high voltage arcs through the crack....however a ohm meter check will find this path to ground as an open......the voltage is jumping an air gap.

In my case.....if I am going to take the coil out to look at it......I would put a new one in.
The reason is, many times you will see the carbon tracks......or a crack......but it is possible to have this and not be able to see it....particularly as it will not be squeaky clean back in there.

As you well know....these "sorta bad" issues are a lot tougher to track down than a solid failure.....so many "It could be's"

[tripletdaddy]

Uuuuhhh.....I guess I was mistaken to assume that it is understood that you won't get any continuity through a non-conductive material like the plastic or epoxy or whatever non-conductive material that comprises the majority of the exterior of the coil. I implied to test for shorts to any "metal" or other conductive material on the exterior of the coil, like a metal heat sink on its bottom or metal bushings cast into it for bolting it down without cracking it. What was I thinking? I was not suggesting that it could be tested for a short via a crack in the body, as pointed out. Certainly a cracked coil body would justify replacing it even if it could be tested. I suggest this test, because it is an effective test to use on the metal "can" encased and other metal bodied, single lead coils. So I figured, if you can find any metal on it, see if the coil is shorting out to it. I've determined two of my coils to be bad with this test. That's all.

[searcherrr]

I do have the CD, but frankly it is ridiculous to look through. Its a very old school program without really good search features. I couldn't find what I wanted in 15 minutes so I gave up.

I found an exposed wire at the Ignition Coil last night. Thinking of replacing the coil pack yet again even though I think the old one is fine and hoping the exposed wire was/is my problem. No dice though. Maybe it'll take a while of driving to relearn out of the "near stall @ rad fan off" sequence now that I've sealed the exposed wire?

Ignition coil top connector (4 prongs on coil pack/4 wire connector):
Gray / Red wire
Yellow / White wire
Black / Yellow wire
Red / Yellow wire - exposed and patched.

I have scoured my Ford CD and I cannot find this connector anywhere. Anyone know what that wire does?

Tripletdaddy - You da man. I have inspected my coil pack and it looks fine to me, but when I have the patience I need to do those tests. THANKS ! and thanks for the persistence to retype your post..... I know how that goes... it makes me so furious that I come back and post with a VENGENCE to show the computer that I ain't gonna be controlled! lol

[wiswind]

I know that you know about the crack issue....and your instructions were great.
Some reading the forum may not understand what we are talking about regarding the air gap created by a crack in the epoxy.....and might assume that the coil is good.
You and searcherr need no explaination, but I am thinking of those who find this thread with the search function later....
As you have worked on cars a lot more than I have, you probably understand better than I do the variety of understanding that folks have.

With searcherrs issue...where it does not seem to be a hard failure....the air gap is a possiblility.....but the only way to know is to remove the coil pack.
And on a vehicle as old as 1995 (and my '96) one would be best to just put a new one in if they are going to the trouble to remove it.
I don't trust myself to catch a slight crack anyhow.

[tripletdaddy]

Yup, gotcha, Wiswind.

Searcherr, I compared your wire colors with my, fwiw, Windstar manual and Ford cd for other cars, unfortunately not the Windstar, and I found your wires to be the following:

What you listed:
Ignition coil top connector (4 prongs on coil pack/4 wire connector):
Gray / Red wire
Yellow / White wire
Black / Yellow wire
Red / Yellow wire - exposed and patched.


What I found in the references:
Most likely your gray/red is 12v hot KOn, the refs. say red/lt green
Yel/black is 5 and 1 plugs
yel/red is 3 and 4 plugs
yel/white is 2 and plugs

The wire coloring is the main color/tracer color.
I noticed yours, Searcherr, may be reversed.
If all else fails, the pins are in the same order as the plug pairs for means of identification, and the end pin will measure 12v when KOn.

So, assuming your red/yel is my yel/red, it is the primary ground wire for the 3 and 4 plugs secondary coil, that goes to/from the PCM that the PCM grounds on and off as that coil circuit needs to be energized.

With the insulation damaged on the one wire raises the question, how did it get that way and when, if that matters? It didn't just happen on its own. Is it reasonable it was nicked during the engine transplants?
Based on what you've said, it seems not to matter.

[uzzo2]

Hey guys, i think i may have a coil pack going bad on my winnie. Was going to town earlier and felt a little shudder then the cel came on. P0303,number 3 misfire, it seemed to run fine after that though. I looked on rockauto at the coils. They have 2 that are standard motor products brand, one is $49.79 and the other is $78.79. Anybody know the difference? Searcherr, this is probably going to make you sick, but it tickles me to death. Since gas has come down the last couple of weeks, i decided to fill up the tank and check the mileage. I couldn't afford to fill it all the way up at $4.50 a gallon. The result: 3 consecutive tanks at over 20 mpg, the last one a little over 23 mpg. I never would have believed it if i hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

[LeSabre97mint]

Originally Posted by uzzo2

Hey guys, i think i may have a coil pack going bad on my winnie. Was going to town earlier and felt a little shudder then the cel came on. P0303,number 3 misfire, it seemed to run fine after that though. I looked on rockauto at the coils. They have 2 that are standard motor products brand, one is $49.79 and the other is $78.79. Anybody know the difference? Searcherr, this is probably going to make you sick, but it tickles me to death. Since gas has come down the last couple of weeks, i decided to fill up the tank and check the mileage. I couldn't afford to fill it all the way up at $4.50 a gallon. The result: 3 consecutive tanks at over 20 mpg, the last one a little over 23 mpg. I never would have believed it if i hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

uzzo2

I looked at your profile and was this with your 95? That's pretty good for the first year the Windstar was made! I know the HP was increased 96 and newer. I can feel the difference driving my 98 compared to my 95. There is a lot more up and go! I have to watch my speed closer driving the 98.

Dan

[uzzo2]

Originally Posted by LeSabre97mint

uzzo2

I looked at your profile and was this with your 95? That's pretty good for the first year the Windstar was made! I know the HP was increased 96 and newer. I can feel the difference driving my 98 compared to my 95. There is a lot more up and go! I have to watch my speed closer driving the 98.

Dan

Yes sir, it's my 95 winnie, i topped it off yesterday because fuel has now gotten to $1.549 by me and i know it's going to go back up. I put 18.4 gallons and a can of berrymans in it, 411.5 miles on the trip odometer- 22.364 mpg. I've even while driving down the hwy checked the odometer between mile markers to see if the odometer is off. The speedo itself wobbles back and forth so much it's almost impossible to tell how fast you're going. If the odometer isn't dead on it's pretty darn close, i just never believed this thing was getting that kind of fuel mileage. I had been guessing around 15 to 17 and griping about that. Been telling my wife i wanted to go look at the new nissan versa, under 10K. It's kind of killing my arguement because i still don't like the van and she does. Anyone have any suggestions on the coil pack from rockauto that i posted about? It still seems to have a engine skip/shudder every once in a while. It hasn't set the cel off again yet though. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by LeSabre97mint

uzzo2

I looked at your profile and was this with your 95? That's pretty good for the first year the Windstar was made! I know the HP was increased 96 and newer. I can feel the difference driving my 98 compared to my 95. There is a lot more up and go! I have to watch my speed closer driving the 98.

Dan

I personally believe 96-98 are the best year Windstars because they have the best of weight and added HP. 96-98's have added about 80-90 lbs over the 95. In 99 I believe the Windstar ate some cookies and donuts and added 400lbs over the 95. This is the main reason I wanted to stick to an earlier model over buying a new 2003 Windstar (which in hindsight now I think I should've done).

[searcherrr]

ALL POST REPLIES IN 1!!!!!

Originally Posted by wiswind

.....

In my case.....if I am going to take the coil out to look at it......I would put a new one in.
The reason is, many times you will see the carbon tracks......or a crack......but it is possible to have this and not be able to see it....particularly as it will not be squeaky clean back in there.

I agree. I have seen those carbon tracks in the coil on my car (3000GT) and wondered what they were... now I even know what to call'em! lol

Originally Posted by wiswind

As you well know....these "sorta bad" issues are a lot tougher to track down than a solid failure.....so many "It could be's"

Jeezus tell me about it.

Originally Posted by tripletdaddy

..... So I figured, if you can find any metal on it, see if the coil is shorting out to it. I've determined two of my coils to be bad with this test. That's all.

Its cool. I get it man. Metal touching metal in the wrong places is no good. Hence why grounds and positives are separated or else everyone's hair would be sticking up all the time.

Originally Posted by tripletdaddy

With the insulation damaged on the one wire raises the question, how did it get that way and when, if that matters? It didn't just happen on its own. Is it reasonable it was nicked during the engine transplants?
Based on what you've said, it seems not to matter.

Exactly. It is for this reason I generally (when I have restored patience .... grrrr...) stick to working on my own vehicles. The open wire I saw was a result of someone leaning on it. All 4 wires were bent in the same direction, but only the 1 was exposed. I encased the exposed one and then encased them all in electrical tape down to the connector as I really feel it should've been in the 1st place.

Originally Posted by uzzo2

Searcherr, this is probably going to make you sick, but it tickles me to death. Since gas has come down the last couple of weeks, i decided to fill up the tank and check the mileage. I couldn't afford to fill it all the way up at $4.50 a gallon. The result: 3 consecutive tanks at over 20 mpg, the last one a little over 23 mpg. I never would have believed it if i hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

I've been past sick. Uzzo2 - I have to tell ya. I have discussed this MPG issue with numerous techs down here and NONE of them believe this van should be getting over 17-18mpg on hwy or 14 - 15 in town. NONE of them. They say its complete bullshit, yet here I have a whole forum of people (with only a few exceptions) telling me they are all getting on avg 23 mpg and at the least 20 and in town at least 15. Thanks for doing the check or for reporting it at least. Put it in the gas mileage thread I started.

Uzzo2 - I just read your next post about checking the odometer using mile markers. WOW..... why didn't I think of that? At least this isn't something I've done yet that I can put on the to do list. Good check too cause I've wondered about it in the past.

RockAuto coilpack Question - I have heard (Wiswind included) a few people say they are happy with the GP Sorensen brand at AdvanceAuto. I believe its reasonably priced and for the confirmation from this forum that they are OK to use I'd pay whatever they want. I think I recall it being in the 60's over there when I checked one time.

[uzzo2]

RockAuto coilpack Question - I have heard (Wiswind included) a few people say they are happy with the GP Sorensen brand at AdvanceAuto. I believe its reasonably priced and for the confirmation from this forum that they are OK to use I'd pay whatever they want. I think I recall it being in the 60's over there when I checked one time.

I've been on their website, they're not carrying the gp sorenson brand anymore. the cheapest one now over there is $118.99 for a BWD, i believe that is borg-warner. i wound up putting a borg plug wire set on it a while back, they seem to be good wires. DON'T buy the xaact brand from advance, they suck, trust me on that one. I can get a motorcraft coil from rockauto for about 86 clams, opinions?