Lower Intake Manifold Gaskets Failure Question

[drzoidberg]

My winnie started leaking coolant in the driveway all of a sudden on Sunday after a warm-cold weather cycle (no driving, though), and it looks like the source is where the lower intake manifold meets the block on the front of the engine, near the rear bank (closest to the tensioner pulley). It was leaking visibly on the ground at a rate of probably 10 drops per hour, rather than like the previous couple years where it had just been oozing to the point I could see residue and smell it when the weather got cold, when it seemed to leak more...didn't lose much coolant in the summer. I'm wondering if it's also leaking internally some, as the van started and ran the first 15-20 seconds or so pretty rough after sitting all weekend (as it's been doing on and off for quite a while, typically after sitting a couple days). I also looked today and noticed some slight white buildup on the oil filler cap. Oil is fairly clear looking, but might be a little cloudy, hard to tell.

My question is, has anyone else had problems with their lower intake manifold gaskets leaking coolant into the oil, and is some white buildup on the oil filler cap normal? I don't recall seeing any last winter, but my memory is kinda fuzzy sometimes. Anything I should be on the look out for if I take it to the dealer for diagnosis? I called and the dealer said about $50-70 for parts, and $213+tax for labor if the lower intake gaskets are the problem. Sound reasonable? $213 for labor doesn't sound too bad, given all the things that have to come off to work on it, but I haven't had much experience with the dealer service departments. Are there any hidden charges they might try to spring on me?

Thanks.

[drzoidberg]

I forgot to mention that the windstar is a 98 with about 98k miles

[northern piper]

this was just discussed about a week ago so do a quick look and you'll see the posting with a lot of pictures. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=928508
The cost quoted seems really low. I know the previous poster who did the work himself quoted some 12 or so hours of work so something is mixed up.

If you aren't driving the van daily I'd do a quick oil change, collect a sample and send it to http://www.blackstone-labs.com/. They'll do a quick analysis of the oil and let you know what's up. It's a great service and the cost is minimal.

As for the white milky stuff under the cap, it's likely normal, assuming that it's only there. When I look under my cap during the cooler months I tend to get a bit too. You may need a new cap as it could be leaking.

Keep us informed of how this plays out1

[drzoidberg]

Piper,

Thanks for the advice. I ordered one of the blackstone labs kits just a couple minutes ago.

When you say "just on the cap," is that really just the cap itself, or does that include some of the valve cover area around it? The white residue I saw was on the cap and also on the inside of the valve cover area around the cap, looked like a pretty thin layer, and fresh. I didn't really see any white stuff on the dipstick, and the 5-month old oil looks OK, I think. It's a light brown (only gets driven about 25 miles a week), maybe just the slightest bit hazy, but definitely nowhere near a chocolate milk type color.

I put some Bar's liquid radiator stop-leak in the van today to deal with the new external leakage (which seems to have helped some, I think...hard to tell with the wet weather), so I idled it for probably 10 minutes or so before making the 2-mile trip to work and then again before heading home in 35-40 degree rainy weather, so I guess it may have had a chance to collect significant moisture in there, with the PCV valve not sucking any crankcase gases out at idle and the short trips.

I've had that external leak from the lower intake for years, and I don't seem to really have any smoke from the tailpipe or anything like that, so I'm hoping the leak is still just external. I think I may cancel my appointment with the dealer that I had for the day before Thanksgiving (probably not a day when the techs will be able to concentrate, anyway) and see if the white stuff goes away or reduces after some normal driving without as much idling.

[northern piper]

I'll get the white milky stuff on the underside of the cap and if I put my finger inside the valve cover and move it around there'll be some there too. When I first saw it I was pretty freaked too but in the warm/cold cycles this tends to happen. I don't know how old your cap is but that's a simple inexpensive change. If all of your oil is milky (ie at the dipstick) then you really have a bigger problem. Doesn't sound like that in your situation. I installed a catch can (search on my ID for pcv catch can) between the PCV valve and the intake this past summer. I just emptied it out on the weekend and I bet I had a 1/2 ounce of white "guck" in there.

Ask Blackstone for the rush service and they'll give you a good idea of what's going on. I too would be reluctant to have any techs look at it without the Blackstone info in my back pocket.

Piper

[drzoidberg]

Thanks for the confirmation on the white gunk near the oil filler. Sounds like it may just be the cold weather rearing its ugly head (i hope). My wife's saturn gets a similar, slightly yellower stuff all over the inside of the valve covers probably 1/4" thick when it gets cold (talk about bad PCV system design...), but I guess I just don't look inside the valve covers of the winnie enough when it gets cold outside.

I went back and looked at my Ford manual, and I agree, given the number of items that have to be removed and replaced, the cost the dealership gave me does seem very low for the lower gaskets. I wonder if they misunderstood and quoted on the upper ones instead? The service manager I talked to didn't seem all that knowledgeable.

I'll have to give Blackstone a try, since it's about time for an oil change anyway. I'm always a little suspicious of the stealerships, so it would definitely be a nice cheap sanity check if I decide to take the van in later.

Thanks.

[12Ounce]

The suggested labour cost seems "too" reasonable to me also.

Assuming the '98 is not too different from my '99, there is a 4-piece sealing system under the lower intake manifold;
... 2 pieces of gaskets between the two heads and the lower intake manifold. These gaskets pass intake-air and coolant.
... and 2 end "seals" at the front and rear of the engine block, between the block and the lower intake manifold.

It sounds as though the front seal is at fault. If it leaks oil outward, it probably leaks air inward ... and helps to account for the condensation you see around the oil cap.

If you can live with the oil leaks, I would wait until the air leak got bad enough to cause MIL codes. If Blackstone finds significant coolant in the oil, that's a different matter ... and you will have to assume you have more that just water-condensation getting into the crankcase.

[LeSabre97mint]

Originally Posted by northern piper

this was just discussed about a week ago so do a quick look and you'll see the posting with a lot of pictures. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=928508
The cost quoted seems really low. I know the previous poster who did the work himself quoted some 12 or so hours of work so something is mixed up.

N-piper

I took my time and made sure everything was cleaned up well....and this was my first time working on a Ford 3.8 newer than 95. I wanted to make sure that I didn't have to do this repair again.

The dealer may have a guy that can do this job in the time quoted.

Dan

[northern piper]

I understand what you're saying Dan about the dealership mechanic time vs "our" time but I still think they've under quoted. Getting them to stick to it... Maybe if the quote was written but I'm still skeptical. Without a doubt though Dan you did a better, more thorough job than any assembly line mechanic would do. And, if you ever had to do it again, I bet you'd be decreasing the time to do the job by 30% anyway.

Piper

[LeSabre97mint]

Originally Posted by northern piper

I understand what you're saying Dan about the dealership mechanic time vs "our" time but I still think they've under quoted. Getting them to stick to it... Maybe if the quote was written but I'm still skeptical. Without a doubt though Dan you did a better, more thorough job than any assembly line mechanic would do. And, if you ever had to do it again, I bet you'd be decreasing the time to do the job by 30% anyway.

Piper

What is also helpful, I've been working on autos since I was about 12 or so and have replaced many gaskets, heads and so on.

Dan

[wiswind]

The cost for parts sounds right in line with what I paid.
I would go ahead and have them do it.....
This is a repair that you should not have to do again, as the new gaskets have been improved to adress the weakness that causes them to fail.
I would have the repair done ASAP as coolant into the motor oil will cause more serious repairs.
The job calls for a oil and oil filter change before starting the engine.
The upper intake manifold gaskets are reusable.

Also....ask them to clean out the EGR ports, which are located in the lower intake manifold.
Maybe even replace the cross over tube....a metal line that goes from the passenger side of the motor over to the driver side.....the coolant to the heater hose passes through it.
The cross over (aka bypass hose) includes the "U" shaped hose that connects between the fitting from the water pump....and the end of the cross over pipe.

These 2 extra items are easy to do as they have the lower intake manifold off anyhow.